Maudcat

Hi, PerSe.
Not to pile on, because I know you are dealing with a bunch of stuff, but there is a thread, "Random Reflections" started by thousandwords53 that you may find helpful as well.
I will say that no one on this site, best of my knowledge anyway, ever said, "Gee, I really regret leaving my addict spouse. Wish I hadn't."
it is never an easy decision to leave, but I think that children do best with consistency and peace in their lives, tho it may be with one parent.





Stay strong..

trailmix

I have read here (many times) that most therapists won't do couples therapy when there is an active addict in the pair.

The main reason being an addicted person is not thinking straight so - what really is the point?

So you spoke to him NYE and he has continued to drink. He heard you, he chose not to answer you (probably) because he doesn't have a "good" answer. Unless he wanted to say - you are absolutely right! I've been a completely self-centered ass and I'm quitting right now, no answer would suffice (for you), so he said nothing.

He knows why you have moved out of the bedroom but instead of him addressing it, showing concern or remorse, he ignores it. If he wanted to talk about it I'm thinking he would have?

You can write the letter but be prepared for the answer, he might well say he's not going to quit, doesn't want to, will move out if need be. What will you do then?

If you want to maintain the status quo for now, maybe just carrying on as you are is ok?

I'm just saying that it could go either way. He is obviously well detached (if I'm interpreting your posts correctly).

Sleepyhollo

I’m sorry about what you are having to go through PerSe. I know it is tough, very tough. Our communication had really gone down the toilet the last 3-4 years especially and I was also afraid to talk to him because I’d never know how he would react. And even now, I still have a hard time talking to him. Luckily we can do most stuff per email.
You don’t have to make any decisions today but I think you should follow through with the attorney consultation. At least you know where you would stand in case you decide to bail. You being here you can also get support and advice. I wish I had had that. I was so clueless really about alcoholism (and I am a medical provider but addiction is not something they cover all that much plus they would never teach how it affects home life anyway ). I don’t honestly think it would have changed the outcome but it would have been nice to have learned a lot before I confronted him.
The last year before I confronted him was really hard. I could talk to no one about it and I knew I had to just let things get really out of hand otherwise we would’ve continued the same cycle of stopping and starting over and over again. Something drastic needed to happen either for him to quit or me to leave.
You could always write him a letter and not give it yet. At least get everything out for your own sake. But it may help for him to see how it has affected you and your kids and your marriage. He still may not think he has a problem but at least he will know your side of the equation. The second to last time i confronted my XH he told me he understood he could never drink again, and how he didn’t realize how isolating his drinking was for me. And i think he actually did believe that and not just feed me a story. But i guess his head just wasn’t ready to quit, he did quit for a year but ddI not seek any help so it was not much better. I think you need to figure out where you are at and what your are willing to do (or not do)if he continues to drink. I just kept plugging along, taking care of everyone and covering for him. I was not ready to walk out even though things were bad. I just kept up the appearances. Until I was no longer able to do that and I was truly ready to walk out. You will know when you hit that point. You may not be there yet and that’s ok, jus make sure your kiddos are safe (I pretty much made sure I did the vast majority of the driving, I had mostly done this anyway since my kid was born so it wasn’t that out of the ordinary and if I had something going on I would send her to a friends house for a play date) . You’re well ahead of me by already having a therapist, being here and learning more about addiction. And if you are not ready to make any life changing decisions right now that is ok. Just as long as you and your kids are safe. It is easy for people to say, get the heck out. But it isn’t that easy, otherwise no one would stay in abusive relationships. Decisions are always easy to make for people that aren’t living it and looking from the outside in.
Feel free to PM me if you’d like. Definitely keep reading a lot here because there is a wealth of info and knowledge on this site.

Raindrops

dandylion

PerSe…...I would bet my kids' milk money that he knows why you moved to another bedroom. He has known your feelings about his alcoholism for some time....ever since you started telling him---back in 2015. Even if he is still in denial...which he surely is...he knows how YOU feel about his drinking. Your moving to another bedroom tells him, loud and clear. Sure...give him the letter if it m akes you feel better...I, actually, don't think it will make much difference, one way or another....
The thing that I think will make a difference, is for you to continue to get help for your fears....the "prison" of fear that you seem to be living in...from what you have shared with us, over time.....
I think that seeing the lawyer is an excellent step....because you need to know your rights and his rights....Think of it as information gathering...and, that alone, will make you feel somewhat better....
The more help you gather around you, the better able you will be to do what you need to do...
trailmix is right....generally marriage counselors will not take a couple, if they know that one of them is actively drinking. For very good reasons.
trailmix….if you want change in your life...you are going to have to be the agent of change....and, you can't count on his co-operation or help....
You can't change what is inside of him...only he can do that....
If he is not ready to quit drinking....your moving into another bedroom, or another house, or across the united states, will not make any difference....
This world is full of alcoholics who have put everything they had over the alcohol....
I am giving you the following link that may be of help....it is educational in nature, and is arranged by state....It can help you to organize your thoughts and questions before you see the lawyer....(it can save you a lot of time)…..

You can do this...keep taking baby steps in facing your fears....

www.womansdivorce.com

AnvilheadII

i think it is very important to have next to zero expectations on this letter having any type of positive outcome. he knows that you left the bedroom, and he knows why. while he may not admit it, he knows damn good and well what THE PROBLEM is. his drinking. or more to the point, how YOU feel about his drinking. him and alcohol are buddies, compadres, they GET each other, and nothing is going to come between them.

you've asked him about counseling and he gave an emphatic NO.

the boys may seem well adjusted but they are still living with active addiction in their home, by one of their two primary caregivers. maybe he isn't staggering around belligerent at all hours, but i imagine there are more incidents than are easy to admit. alcoholism is progressive and his relationship with alcohol and how it affects him will continue to change and progress. this is likely as good as it gets. and with each corner turned, there is no going back.

Maudcat

As always, Dandy and Anvil make very good points.
Chiming in to agree about getting an atttorney consult.
Always good to know what your rights under the law are.

PerSe

Thank you all so very much for this support. I can't tell you how much it means.

I have felt like, as dandylion and AnvilheadII mention above, that the letter might just bring more pain and wishy-washyness. You are right - he totally knows why I moved out. And the night I moved out, I emotionally detached. I am afraid the letter will bring me back into some emotional connection purgatory that will muddy the water for me. At this point in time, the water is already muddy with glimpses of clarity. I NEED those glimpses of clarity. The clarity is: recover or we are done. Even though I don't feel strong enough to live up to that boundary/demand, I don't want to drag this out with promises to cut back. That is my clarity, but I am literally nauseated when I think this. It might seem shallow but I don't know if I can yank the boys out of this house where they have so much (close to schools, close friends on our block, back yard, room and freedom to roam, the expectation that this is our forever home at least for their childhood) into a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment where we may or may not be able to keep our dog. I guess we'll see what the attorney says, maybe we could keep the house somehow.

Okay, from the bottom of my heart, thank you all for your replies. You have helped me so much.

Maudcat

You make valid points, and maybe just getting an attorney consult is the way to go for now.
Trust your gut. You will know the point at which the marriage is not tenable, safe or peaceful.
It may not come to that until the children are older.
But...as others have said, alcohol addiction is progressive.
It won't get better.
My dad drank too much, especially on weekends.
I well remember just staying away from my house because he was not pleasant to be around and trying to avoid him as much as I could.
Not a great way to live when you are a kid.

dandylion

PerSe…...Don't tear yourself up too much about what a move means to children.....I'm not trying to say that there is no adjustment period, at all....because all change requires some adjustment for anyone...but, it doesn't mean that it jas to be traumatic, for them. In fact, learning to make adjustments and working through some challenges, in childhood, can be preparation for adulthood...where there will be challenges to deal with, also.
Many, many people who do not live in just o ne childhood home, and are not scarred for it.
I did not live in one home, the whole childhood...in fact, there were three different homes...and, I have fond memories from all of them.
As long as the children have, at least one caregiver who makes them feel safe, and secure, and give them a home that feels predictable...from day to day... that seems to be the most important factor....
Moving to a more peaceful environment can be more beneficial than living in a home with an alcoholic patent.
Consider, that, it may be more painful for you to let go of the Norman Rockwell visions, yourself, than it is for the children. Children, given enough nurturing and safety, have an amazing ability to adjust to new circumstances.
Besides, you may find a place where you CAN keep the dog...I vote for keeping the dog! Most places will let you have an animal, if you pay a pet deposit....
You may find a good place for the kids...even if the house may be more modest than you are used to....the house doesn't matter that much to kids...as long as they feel loved and safe....

thequest

His routine is the same 20 years later? Drinking with his buddies with children at home?

If you are waiting for time and age to temper or slow him down don't. I've seen parents, families, spouses etc hope age & time would 'cure' people and they too are 20 years older confronting the same issues.

The biggest flag is his behavior or maturity hasn't seemed to have progressed over 2 decades.

Also it's been my experience in the work place that alcoholics & addicts are frequently covered for/enabled by their coworkers & management. Alot of alcoholics/addicts thrive off the same routine and familiarity which he seems to have at work. But I've seen decades long known alcoholics deteriorate fast to the point of getting fired. And if things change at work that could take things to the next level(deteriorate).

Until he actually wants to change don't expect much.

Sasha1972

Consulting an attorney doesn't commit you to anything, and might help you to form a more realistic picture about what life would be like if you were to leave (which might be better or worse than what you're imagining right now). In my case, the reality of living and parenting on my own was MUCH better than my fears. Getting educated about the relevant laws in my jurisdiction as well as putting together a complete financial picture helped me.

I'm not saying you should leave just because it was the right thing for me, but the more you know, the better your decision-making will be.

As for the whole writing-a-letter question - would it help you to write such a letter, even if you never give it to him? It doesn't sound like he would be receptive - his priority is preserving his ability to drink at will. But it might be helpful for you to put things down in black and white. You can also re-read it later if your resolve is wavering or if you need a reminder of how unhealthy life with an alcoholic can be.

I found that keeping a sort of journal in that way was useful - I would send myself emails during some of the craziest parts, as a way of setting down exactly how bad it was, because I knew I would be tempted to minimize things, rationalize "it's not really that bad", etc. These letters were a way of keeping myself accountable as to exactly how bad it was. I never sent them to my ex, I sent them to my future self.

OpheliaKatz

Please don't do couples therapy with an active addict. You can look at my past posts to see how it can go terribly wrong. Couples therapy relies on both parties to be honest and to agree on an amicable outcome to relationship problems. It is usually not possible for an active addict to be honest with themselves about their addiction, so they won't be honest with other people.

The worst thing that could happen in couples therapy with an active addict is if they gaslight the counselor into colluding with them to abuse you -- and this will hurt you severely, it will be difficult to trust other people once you bare your soul in a therapists' chair only to have them attempt to make you responsible for your partner's choice to drug and also make you feel responsible for the health outcomes of their choice to drug.

The only thing the couples counselor should do if a couple comes to them where one or both is in active addiction, is to tell you that they can't treat you and you need to be in in AA or Alanon.

I don't think you should question your boundaries. If you are not okay with something, you can't force yourself to be okay with it. I also don't think that drinking a six pack and then a whole bottle of anything is normal -- people who drink usually share a bottle of wine, share a six pack... not the whole pack and bottle to themselves. 2-3 glasses of wine = a good time (in my opinion). More than that is drunk. ALL the wine for one dude = addict.