Gaslighting, emotional sneakiness of some behaviours.
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Gaslighting, emotional sneakiness of some behaviours.
Read this in "courage to change this morning".
"It never occurred to me that I was being abused or that the hard words could be untrue".
I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine asking her if she thought I was being emotionally abused by some of the words and things my ex eaddict used to say she said yes and my instinct was yes also. This was a revelation for me because I always saw myself as someone who would never let that happen to them, not me, I'm too strong, too independent. So there was shame because of it.
Even some words that seemed ok would send my mind reeling and wondering was I going mad. He would often say he told me something or said something a different way, and I knew he didn't, but said your loosing your mind, your memory, I'd get that checked out if I was you. He could purposely play mind games, I think got a kick out of it. Certainly it is a way of controlling, whether concious or unconscious.
Looking back I can see his own self hatred in there but it shows how very easily and sneakily little words, dropped incrementally, can start to wear someone down mentally, and allow them to feel are they loosing their mind, asking ourselves what's going on here.
When I read that this morning, I still ask myself how! I've learned a lot over the past year about what emotional abuse is! It can be very "minor" stuff, to criticism, contempt, stonewalling, gaslighting and so much in between.
"It never occurred to me that I was being abused or that the hard words could be untrue".
I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine asking her if she thought I was being emotionally abused by some of the words and things my ex eaddict used to say she said yes and my instinct was yes also. This was a revelation for me because I always saw myself as someone who would never let that happen to them, not me, I'm too strong, too independent. So there was shame because of it.
Even some words that seemed ok would send my mind reeling and wondering was I going mad. He would often say he told me something or said something a different way, and I knew he didn't, but said your loosing your mind, your memory, I'd get that checked out if I was you. He could purposely play mind games, I think got a kick out of it. Certainly it is a way of controlling, whether concious or unconscious.
Looking back I can see his own self hatred in there but it shows how very easily and sneakily little words, dropped incrementally, can start to wear someone down mentally, and allow them to feel are they loosing their mind, asking ourselves what's going on here.
When I read that this morning, I still ask myself how! I've learned a lot over the past year about what emotional abuse is! It can be very "minor" stuff, to criticism, contempt, stonewalling, gaslighting and so much in between.
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Acceptance.
Accepting things exactly how they are is transformative. Energy then is used in new ways for healing.
Tara Brach meditations on RAIN and radical acceptance are helpful to me with this. Abraham Hicks relaxing bedtime meditations are, too. And the morning rampages!
Acceptance of, I'm human. I've been ill. I had this experience.
Accepting things exactly how they are is transformative. Energy then is used in new ways for healing.
Tara Brach meditations on RAIN and radical acceptance are helpful to me with this. Abraham Hicks relaxing bedtime meditations are, too. And the morning rampages!
Acceptance of, I'm human. I've been ill. I had this experience.
Life is good
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Glenjo, what happened to you isn't minor. Honor it. Allow healing. Allowing readings to create an awareness is beautiful. The healing then is started through acceptance.
More will be revealed.
One day at a time. Enjoy some easy pleasures today. Ebb and flow. There's a rhythm to the healing process.
And most definitely, "take what you like and leave the rest! "
More will be revealed.
One day at a time. Enjoy some easy pleasures today. Ebb and flow. There's a rhythm to the healing process.
And most definitely, "take what you like and leave the rest! "
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Originally Posted by Glenjo99 
I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine asking her if she thought I was being emotionally abused by some of the words and things my ex eaddict used to say she said yes and my instinct was yes also. This was a revelation for me because I always saw myself as someone who would never let that happen to them, not me, I'm too strong, too independent. So there was shame because of it.
Even some words that seemed ok would send my mind reeling and wondering was I going mad. He would often say he told me something or said something a different way, and I knew he didn't, but said your loosing your mind, your memory, I'd get that checked out if I was you. He could purposely play mind games, I think got a kick out of it. Certainly it is a way of controlling, whether concious or unconscious.
Looking back I can see his own self hatred in there but it shows how very easily and sneakily little words, dropped incrementally, can start to wear someone down mentally, and allow them to feel are they loosing their mind, asking ourselves what's going on here.
Even some words that seemed ok would send my mind reeling and wondering was I going mad. He would often say he told me something or said something a different way, and I knew he didn't, but said your loosing your mind, your memory, I'd get that checked out if I was you. He could purposely play mind games, I think got a kick out of it. Certainly it is a way of controlling, whether concious or unconscious.
Looking back I can see his own self hatred in there but it shows how very easily and sneakily little words, dropped incrementally, can start to wear someone down mentally, and allow them to feel are they loosing their mind, asking ourselves what's going on here.
I'm the one, however, who remembers DS's every appointment, every activity, makes sure all his schoolwork and any other assignments are done, and makes sure all permission slips, etc., are taken care of. I had to take over on this because I was getting notes from school that forms hadn't been turned in, because she said she would do them and then she totally forgot.
She also will speak harshly to me, sometimes in front of DS, but if I ask a question about something that she doesn't like, then I'm being mean and hateful - and then I really do think it's my problem.
Glenjo -- I 'knew' this all along, but this post helped me see it more clearly. Thank you!
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
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COD, it happened to me too. Yep. I would document conversations in my journal, and my ex would deny they ever happened.
Once he did this during an actual conversation -- as the conversation was happening, he started invalidating my feelings by saying things like: stop talking about your feelings, you're selfish, what about my feelings? Then I said something like, "I'm trying to tell you about my concerns and you just invalidated my feelings." And then he said something like: I did not, you don't remember anything, you think everything is about you, you actually forget things, that's why you can't even read a newspaper and tell me who Mike Pompeo is... etc.
So these "conversations" always happened in the context of me telling him that when he lies to me and I have to call an ambulance, I won't be able to tell the paramedics what he's taken... etc, when he lies to me, he hurts my feelings and hurts the marriage. His response was always: you are so selfish, you always think about yourself... what about me? I'm only drugging myself because I'm suffering from PTSD.
Some people call it quacking too.
I have some idea why I tolerated the situation for so long: one reason was, I used to be a bit of a traditionalist when it came to marriage, meaning, I believed that you married for life (not meaning that I make breakfast, lunch, dinner and fetch slippers -- there's Uber Eats and a dog for that). Now I think it would be so much nicer if people were like fish: you lay the eggs, the male fish fertilizes them and swims away, the eggs hatch on their own and swim away. Fish don't even have to pay college tuition. But I'm not a marine biologist, so I could be wrong.
Once he did this during an actual conversation -- as the conversation was happening, he started invalidating my feelings by saying things like: stop talking about your feelings, you're selfish, what about my feelings? Then I said something like, "I'm trying to tell you about my concerns and you just invalidated my feelings." And then he said something like: I did not, you don't remember anything, you think everything is about you, you actually forget things, that's why you can't even read a newspaper and tell me who Mike Pompeo is... etc.
So these "conversations" always happened in the context of me telling him that when he lies to me and I have to call an ambulance, I won't be able to tell the paramedics what he's taken... etc, when he lies to me, he hurts my feelings and hurts the marriage. His response was always: you are so selfish, you always think about yourself... what about me? I'm only drugging myself because I'm suffering from PTSD.
Some people call it quacking too.
I have some idea why I tolerated the situation for so long: one reason was, I used to be a bit of a traditionalist when it came to marriage, meaning, I believed that you married for life (not meaning that I make breakfast, lunch, dinner and fetch slippers -- there's Uber Eats and a dog for that). Now I think it would be so much nicer if people were like fish: you lay the eggs, the male fish fertilizes them and swims away, the eggs hatch on their own and swim away. Fish don't even have to pay college tuition. But I'm not a marine biologist, so I could be wrong.
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My XAH is king of the quackers! He would act like things did not happen b/c he could not remember them! He actually pretends something he was arrested for and he pled guilty to never happened. Like poof, it's gone just b/c he was able to get it expunged from his record (he had a good attorney). We will have entire conversations now about our kids, while he is sober (we have them at church sometimes), and later on he acts like he has no idea what I am talking about.
He would also say and do small things that I did not realize were abusive until much later on.
I can only say as I am sitting here reflecting that I THANK GOD that he is no longer my husband and that I am away from that.
He would also say and do small things that I did not realize were abusive until much later on.
I can only say as I am sitting here reflecting that I THANK GOD that he is no longer my husband and that I am away from that.
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Originally Posted by CentralOhioDad
OMG - AW does the same thing to me!! Even though I document conversations in my journal, she will come back and say I never told her something, or that she told me something and I just forgot! I'm older than she is, and since I have to keep my life and DS's organized, sometimes I feel like I'm losing my mind, which she is more than happy to say that I am.
I'm the one, however, who remembers DS's every appointment, every activity, makes sure all his schoolwork and any other assignments are done, and makes sure all permission slips, etc., are taken care of. I had to take over on this because I was getting notes from school that forms hadn't been turned in, because she said she would do them and then she totally forgot.
She also will speak harshly to me, sometimes in front of DS, but if I ask a question about something that she doesn't like, then I'm being mean and hateful - and then I really do think it's my problem.
Glenjo -- I 'knew' this all along, but this post helped me see it more clearly. Thank you!
I'm the one, however, who remembers DS's every appointment, every activity, makes sure all his schoolwork and any other assignments are done, and makes sure all permission slips, etc., are taken care of. I had to take over on this because I was getting notes from school that forms hadn't been turned in, because she said she would do them and then she totally forgot.
She also will speak harshly to me, sometimes in front of DS, but if I ask a question about something that she doesn't like, then I'm being mean and hateful - and then I really do think it's my problem.
Glenjo -- I 'knew' this all along, but this post helped me see it more clearly. Thank you!
When I went visit him in UK in June, he asked a friend around and made fun of me in front of friend. I think that was a turning point for me, he had never done that before and apart from anything else, it made me sad that he saw me as a joke or someone he could make fun of. On our own, I could tolerate, in front of others, no way! I got that too, if I broached a subject he didn't want to talk about, I was being selfish and making him feel bad, yet he could talk or accuse me of things much harsher. Again, a lot of this was done SOBER. Amazes me that people know how to do this.
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Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz
COD, it happened to me too. Yep. I would document conversations in my journal, and my ex would deny they ever happened.
Once he did this during an actual conversation -- as the conversation was happening, he started invalidating my feelings by saying things like: stop talking about your feelings, you're selfish, what about my feelings? Then I said something like, "I'm trying to tell you about my concerns and you just invalidated my feelings." And then he said something like: I did not, you don't remember anything, you think everything is about you, you actually forget things, that's why you can't even read a newspaper and tell me who Mike Pompeo is... etc.
So these "conversations" always happened in the context of me telling him that when he lies to me and I have to call an ambulance, I won't be able to tell the paramedics what he's taken... etc, when he lies to me, he hurts my feelings and hurts the marriage. His response was always: you are so selfish, you always think about yourself... what about me? I'm only drugging myself because I'm suffering from PTSD.
Some people call it quacking too.
I have some idea why I tolerated the situation for so long: one reason was, I used to be a bit of a traditionalist when it came to marriage, meaning, I believed that you married for life (not meaning that I make breakfast, lunch, dinner and fetch slippers -- there's Uber Eats and a dog for that). Now I think it would be so much nicer if people were like fish: you lay the eggs, the male fish fertilizes them and swims away, the eggs hatch on their own and swim away. Fish don't even have to pay college tuition. But I'm not a marine biologist, so I could be wrong.
Once he did this during an actual conversation -- as the conversation was happening, he started invalidating my feelings by saying things like: stop talking about your feelings, you're selfish, what about my feelings? Then I said something like, "I'm trying to tell you about my concerns and you just invalidated my feelings." And then he said something like: I did not, you don't remember anything, you think everything is about you, you actually forget things, that's why you can't even read a newspaper and tell me who Mike Pompeo is... etc.
So these "conversations" always happened in the context of me telling him that when he lies to me and I have to call an ambulance, I won't be able to tell the paramedics what he's taken... etc, when he lies to me, he hurts my feelings and hurts the marriage. His response was always: you are so selfish, you always think about yourself... what about me? I'm only drugging myself because I'm suffering from PTSD.
Some people call it quacking too.
I have some idea why I tolerated the situation for so long: one reason was, I used to be a bit of a traditionalist when it came to marriage, meaning, I believed that you married for life (not meaning that I make breakfast, lunch, dinner and fetch slippers -- there's Uber Eats and a dog for that). Now I think it would be so much nicer if people were like fish: you lay the eggs, the male fish fertilizes them and swims away, the eggs hatch on their own and swim away. Fish don't even have to pay college tuition. But I'm not a marine biologist, so I could be wrong.
If I learn anything from it is to love myself more, build up my self esteem and never double guess myself again.
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Glenjo, thank you for this thought provoking thread. Even though this particular problem doesn't apply to my situation with an addicted son, it strikes a cord none the less.
I think that when we are up to our necks in codependent dysfunction and the world of addiction, this kind of life becomes the "norm" for us, it becomes the way we live and we lose sight of how awful and harmful it is.
Posts like this become a beacon of light for the newcomer, and a good reminder for old timers like me. Thank you.
I think that when we are up to our necks in codependent dysfunction and the world of addiction, this kind of life becomes the "norm" for us, it becomes the way we live and we lose sight of how awful and harmful it is.
Posts like this become a beacon of light for the newcomer, and a good reminder for old timers like me. Thank you.
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Ok guys - don't throw virtual things at me but I want to open the perspective on this a bit because this is a great point/conversation -
Imagine what it feels like to a kid. Imagine that you grow up with that as part of what you think is "normal" behavior.
This gaslighting or working around those big elephants in the room starting very early in life & becoming a part of thread that sews together your foundation as a human being is corrosive to being able to develop a sense of your own instincts or self-trust.
This is why I push for hard-but-age-appropriate conversations about truth with our kids. Otherwise we're codie-quacking at them too & it's just as harmful, IMO. What's interesting to me as a former child in this situation is that this was done more by those that enabled my addict father than he himself. This was part of their way of protecting us in the dysfunction. It was never done out f malice, but the end result is the same.
Seriously, just food for thought.
Imagine what it feels like to a kid. Imagine that you grow up with that as part of what you think is "normal" behavior.
This gaslighting or working around those big elephants in the room starting very early in life & becoming a part of thread that sews together your foundation as a human being is corrosive to being able to develop a sense of your own instincts or self-trust.
This is why I push for hard-but-age-appropriate conversations about truth with our kids. Otherwise we're codie-quacking at them too & it's just as harmful, IMO. What's interesting to me as a former child in this situation is that this was done more by those that enabled my addict father than he himself. This was part of their way of protecting us in the dysfunction. It was never done out f malice, but the end result is the same.
Seriously, just food for thought.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
Ok guys - don't throw virtual things at me but I want to open the perspective on this a bit because this is a great point/conversation -
Imagine what it feels like to a kid. Imagine that you grow up with that as part of what you think is "normal" behavior.
This gaslighting or working around those big elephants in the room starting very early in life & becoming a part of thread that sews together your foundation as a human being is corrosive to being able to develop a sense of your own instincts or self-trust.
This is why I push for hard-but-age-appropriate conversations about truth with our kids. Otherwise we're codie-quacking at them too & it's just as harmful, IMO. What's interesting to me as a former child in this situation is that this was done more by those that enabled my addict father than he himself. This was part of their way of protecting us in the dysfunction. It was never done out f malice, but the end result is the same.
Seriously, just food for thought.
Imagine what it feels like to a kid. Imagine that you grow up with that as part of what you think is "normal" behavior.
This gaslighting or working around those big elephants in the room starting very early in life & becoming a part of thread that sews together your foundation as a human being is corrosive to being able to develop a sense of your own instincts or self-trust.
This is why I push for hard-but-age-appropriate conversations about truth with our kids. Otherwise we're codie-quacking at them too & it's just as harmful, IMO. What's interesting to me as a former child in this situation is that this was done more by those that enabled my addict father than he himself. This was part of their way of protecting us in the dysfunction. It was never done out f malice, but the end result is the same.
Seriously, just food for thought.
) I was listing off things that she had done to me---like specific examples (e.g. "you forgot to pick me up at the movies and i had to wait there for three hours alone at night!") and she just denied all of them and told me I was crazy. Denied having a problem. And her (alcoholic) husband backed her up and doubled-down on me being crazy. Two adults vs one kid. I had no shot! Part of me is still angry about that
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There is a release, letting go, moving ahead and great healing possible.
Just like the question for an alcoholic that is: do you want to be sober more than you want to drink?
Our question on this side of Family Disease of Alcoholism: do you want to heal more than you want to hold on to the pain?
Awareness of the pain and anger is the beginning of the answer. Then it's acceptance that comes into play in big ways. Not accepting it's okay. It's not okay these things happened!! Accepting that it did happen. That I am human. That I have these feelings.
Then recovery actions. Self-care. Little bits of good strung together through the day. Learning to reparent all ages of myself - the child of me, the adult of me. I can learn to play, imagine good things happening and take joy in it as they do!
Just like the question for an alcoholic that is: do you want to be sober more than you want to drink?
Our question on this side of Family Disease of Alcoholism: do you want to heal more than you want to hold on to the pain?
Awareness of the pain and anger is the beginning of the answer. Then it's acceptance that comes into play in big ways. Not accepting it's okay. It's not okay these things happened!! Accepting that it did happen. That I am human. That I have these feelings.
Then recovery actions. Self-care. Little bits of good strung together through the day. Learning to reparent all ages of myself - the child of me, the adult of me. I can learn to play, imagine good things happening and take joy in it as they do!
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
Ok guys - don't throw virtual things at me but I want to open the perspective on this a bit because this is a great point/conversation -
Imagine what it feels like to a kid. Imagine that you grow up with that as part of what you think is "normal" behavior.
This gaslighting or working around those big elephants in the room starting very early in life & becoming a part of thread that sews together your foundation as a human being is corrosive to being able to develop a sense of your own instincts or self-trust.
This is why I push for hard-but-age-appropriate conversations about truth with our kids. Otherwise we're codie-quacking at them too & it's just as harmful, IMO. What's interesting to me as a former child in this situation is that this was done more by those that enabled my addict father than he himself. This was part of their way of protecting us in the dysfunction. It was never done out f malice, but the end result is the same.
Seriously, just food for thought.
Imagine what it feels like to a kid. Imagine that you grow up with that as part of what you think is "normal" behavior.
This gaslighting or working around those big elephants in the room starting very early in life & becoming a part of thread that sews together your foundation as a human being is corrosive to being able to develop a sense of your own instincts or self-trust.
This is why I push for hard-but-age-appropriate conversations about truth with our kids. Otherwise we're codie-quacking at them too & it's just as harmful, IMO. What's interesting to me as a former child in this situation is that this was done more by those that enabled my addict father than he himself. This was part of their way of protecting us in the dysfunction. It was never done out f malice, but the end result is the same.
Seriously, just food for thought.
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Originally Posted by Ann
Glenjo, thank you for this thought provoking thread. Even though this particular problem doesn't apply to my situation with an addicted son, it strikes a cord none the less.
I think that when we are up to our necks in codependent dysfunction and the world of addiction, this kind of life becomes the "norm" for us, it becomes the way we live and we lose sight of how awful and harmful it is.
Posts like this become a beacon of light for the newcomer, and a good reminder for old timers like me. Thank you.
I think that when we are up to our necks in codependent dysfunction and the world of addiction, this kind of life becomes the "norm" for us, it becomes the way we live and we lose sight of how awful and harmful it is.
Posts like this become a beacon of light for the newcomer, and a good reminder for old timers like me. Thank you.
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Posts: 160
Originally Posted by Glenjo99
Definately food for thought. That is why I wonder with my ex, how much of it was conscious or subconscious, probably mix of both. The conscious part is what scares me. Subconsciously you would never try to convince someone they were loosing their memory however. To look in from the outside these types of behaviours are fascinating to examine. Just not when your ''in" it.
Also, once you realize what helps you "get your way' with someone in an argument, you will keep doing it over and over--until it no longer works, right?
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One other thing, with addiction, the memory can be affected greatly. I don't mean blacking out, although that's a thing, I mean day to day memory.
Forgetting conversations entirely, sometimes they can be remembered, if prompted. If your mind is already not quite ok, ie: you are an addict and your memory is not functioning properly, you get this as a result.
Glenjo, that arrogant making fun of you in front of the other person thing, that's just cruel. I'm so glad you are working on this and that it will never happen to you again.
Forgetting conversations entirely, sometimes they can be remembered, if prompted. If your mind is already not quite ok, ie: you are an addict and your memory is not functioning properly, you get this as a result.
Glenjo, that arrogant making fun of you in front of the other person thing, that's just cruel. I'm so glad you are working on this and that it will never happen to you again.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
This is why I push for hard-but-age-appropriate conversations about truth with our kids. Otherwise we're codie-quacking at them too & it's just as harmful, IMO. What's interesting to me as a former child in this situation is that this was done more by those that enabled my addict father than he himself. This was part of their way of protecting us in the dysfunction. It was never done out f malice, but the end result is the same.
Seriously, just food for thought.
Seriously, just food for thought.
Yes, even if you are all living in the same house. The less interaction the better. Yes, makes for a kind of whacky family dynamic but still tons better than trying to normalize alcoholism in a family.
It is not normal, working with Mom or Dad's alcoholism is not normal!
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That is why I wonder with my ex, how much of it was conscious or subconscious, probably mix of both. The conscious part is what scares me.
I think behavior is the result of emotions and since it’s the subconscious mind that controls emotions it’s safe to say the subconscious mind is the bigger factor that affects behaviors. For many people emotional and social development during adolescence was never formed in healthy ways. Many instead turned to drinking/drugs when faced with overwhelming anxiety with no coping skills other than to numb the feelings.
Not saying bad behavior is okay because of any given factors or making any kind of excuses for it, just thinking how sad it is that bad behaviors become a survival tool to them much like breathing does.
And on the receiving end of bad behaviors it is also our subconscious mind which controls our emotions and in order to please and be liked and loved because deep down we do not feel that for ourselves we seek outside validations and we accept those bad behaviors.
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Originally Posted by atalose
What I believe about an A’s conscious and subconscious behavior is……….
I think behavior is the result of emotions and since it’s the subconscious mind that controls emotions it’s safe to say the subconscious mind is the bigger factor that affects behaviors. For many people emotional and social development during adolescence was never formed in healthy ways. Many instead turned to drinking/drugs when faced with overwhelming anxiety with no coping skills other than to numb the feelings.
Not saying bad behavior is okay because of any given factors or making any kind of excuses for it, just thinking how sad it is that bad behaviors become a survival tool to them much like breathing does.
And on the receiving end of bad behaviors it is also our subconscious mind which controls our emotions and in order to please and be liked and loved because deep down we do not feel that for ourselves we seek outside validations and we accept those bad behaviors.
I think behavior is the result of emotions and since it’s the subconscious mind that controls emotions it’s safe to say the subconscious mind is the bigger factor that affects behaviors. For many people emotional and social development during adolescence was never formed in healthy ways. Many instead turned to drinking/drugs when faced with overwhelming anxiety with no coping skills other than to numb the feelings.
Not saying bad behavior is okay because of any given factors or making any kind of excuses for it, just thinking how sad it is that bad behaviors become a survival tool to them much like breathing does.
And on the receiving end of bad behaviors it is also our subconscious mind which controls our emotions and in order to please and be liked and loved because deep down we do not feel that for ourselves we seek outside validations and we accept those bad behaviors.
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