Making amends.......
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I can completely understand. For a long time I needed to have those conversations, or thought I needed to. I wanted to know "why" and to reason it all out b/c that is how my head works. However, as a part of my own recovery I learned that very few addicts ever give that. One of the biggest parts of addiction is denial. For them to even admit anything was wrong, and they caused it, would be something most addicts will never be able to recognize.
Just my two cents.
I have always said that when your family breaks up you go through a definite grief process. You will go through it, it just may not be in the time frame you wish for.
Just my two cents.
I have always said that when your family breaks up you go through a definite grief process. You will go through it, it just may not be in the time frame you wish for.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,646
I can see how that would be traumatic for sure. Here is this person you thought you could rely on, talk to and he has this drug infused melt down and that's it, no more conversation, no examining what happened, nothing. That's incredibly tough and cruel.
You know, ever since I read your first post I have thought this, not about you being stuck, but a piece of the puzzle being missing. I even tried to respond to one of your posts last week with that but couldn't quite word it the way I wanted to, or hadn't quite formed the thoughts - anyway.
I think there were more drugs and more alcohol involved here than you knew about. I think he maintained (as in used less) while in contact with you. That whole blow out of drugs on the night you arrived is just too coincidental in my opinion.
His parents are (finally!) away, he probably had time off work (if he was in fact working?) and he needed drugs to get through the time with you because that truly was his MO in the past, no drugs - no intimacy. But it was all too much for him, obviously.
Was he all fake? Possibly not. Did he use drugs to cope with his life, absolutely and certainly to cope with his confusion over his relationship with you.
That's the missing piece of this puzzle - again, just my opinion based on what you have posted.
Based on that theory, how can he approach you sober?
Now, I know that you have said you talked all day long basically and facetimed etc etc and you think you would have known, but I think many here can attest to the fact that might not be true.
How many threads have you read where a person has been married to someone for years and years and they are supposedly in recovery and the partner is questioning whether or not they might be drinking again, they aren't sure, but they suspect. These are people that have lived in the same house with a person for years, married them, may have children with them, know their families etc etc and still, they question whether the person is actually drinking. That's how good some people are at hiding it, it becomes part of who they are really (maintaining a lower amount of alcohol and functioning well, at least on the surface).
there's like a piece of the puzzle missing keeping me stuck
I think there were more drugs and more alcohol involved here than you knew about. I think he maintained (as in used less) while in contact with you. That whole blow out of drugs on the night you arrived is just too coincidental in my opinion.
His parents are (finally!) away, he probably had time off work (if he was in fact working?) and he needed drugs to get through the time with you because that truly was his MO in the past, no drugs - no intimacy. But it was all too much for him, obviously.
Was he all fake? Possibly not. Did he use drugs to cope with his life, absolutely and certainly to cope with his confusion over his relationship with you.
That's the missing piece of this puzzle - again, just my opinion based on what you have posted.
Based on that theory, how can he approach you sober?
Now, I know that you have said you talked all day long basically and facetimed etc etc and you think you would have known, but I think many here can attest to the fact that might not be true.
How many threads have you read where a person has been married to someone for years and years and they are supposedly in recovery and the partner is questioning whether or not they might be drinking again, they aren't sure, but they suspect. These are people that have lived in the same house with a person for years, married them, may have children with them, know their families etc etc and still, they question whether the person is actually drinking. That's how good some people are at hiding it, it becomes part of who they are really (maintaining a lower amount of alcohol and functioning well, at least on the surface).
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by Glenjo99 
Was at an Al Anon meeting tonight. One of the speakers mentioned that when people do the amends part of recovery, they make 3 columns, one for ones they definitely will make amends to, one for maybe and another they definitely will not!
Instantly my low self esteem triggered me to think, oh my God, now he gets to put me in the def will not column if he chooses.
I know I know, I need to focus on me and my recovery, I have no control over him.
Is this true though?
Instantly my low self esteem triggered me to think, oh my God, now he gets to put me in the def will not column if he chooses.
I know I know, I need to focus on me and my recovery, I have no control over him.
Is this true though?
Hope that you're doing well tonight. I've read a few of your posts and before I get into my thoughts on the topic, I just want to say that while I see you struggling with trying to get healthy, I absolutely admire your effort. It is clear that you are really trying to improve for yourself and your own sake. I encourage you, no matter how hard it might seem most days, to keep working toward that improvement, even if it's just baby steps. You will get there. I have a lot of hope for you.
That out of the way, to the topic.....
Honestly, I have heard what you are describing being a method used in some cases, but I have also heard of other situations where amends is simply taking inventory.
The key component seems to be the notion of "do no harm." If you cannot make amends without doing harm, then you don't.
And this is where I have a little concern for you as you go through this co-dependency issue. I feel, myself, and mind you that this is just my opinion, that you are coming across as not understanding that his amends are just that: HIS amends.
Now, realistically, as an outsider, I might feel that he owes you amends. For what you've done. To find peace for himself. To find peace for you.
I will also grant that I do not know your situation in its entirety, I only know what I have read so far.
My concern, and again, note, ONLY my opinion based on this small window, is that given the co-dependency issues that you are trying to overcome, he may feel that making amends actually is potentially harmful for you.
You might read that and think "well, how is an apology harmful? How are amends harmful?"
And that's where I go back to my point that they are his amends to give.
If the view out of his window looking into your life is similar to what I see, if he looked today he might be concerned that making amends could be harmful and could negatively impact the work you are doing on your co-dependency, that it may cause, in essence, a "relapse" for you.
If that is the case, he may opt to not make amends directly. Or he may opt to delay making amends to you specifically not because he does not want to but because he doesn't want to risk harm and wants to wait until you are at a point where you are stronger and more advanced in your own recovery process.
As it is, by the sounds of it, he has a ways to go in his own recovery before he can genuinely try to make amends.
I understand your fear. Seriously. If we were sitting down at a Starbucks drinking coffee and talking about this face to face, I'd want to take your hands and tell you "it's going to be all right, you're putting in the work, keep going, you've got this." I'd want to reassure you that you are on the right path.
You cannot let your fear of what he may or may not do prevent you from continuing to find your own health and your own recovery.
And I know that's hard.
And I know that it probably feels very, very unfair right now.
You have a good heart from what I can tell. It's one filled with love. Don't forget to love yourself, too.
Bless you.
-Eric
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Originally Posted by trailmix
I can see how that would be traumatic for sure. Here is this person you thought you could rely on, talk to and he has this drug infused melt down and that's it, no more conversation, no examining what happened, nothing. That's incredibly tough and cruel.
You know, ever since I read your first post I have thought this, not about you being stuck, but a piece of the puzzle being missing. I even tried to respond to one of your posts last week with that but couldn't quite word it the way I wanted to, or hadn't quite formed the thoughts - anyway.
I think there were more drugs and more alcohol involved here than you knew about. I think he maintained (as in used less) while in contact with you. That whole blow out of drugs on the night you arrived is just too coincidental in my opinion.
His parents are (finally!) away, he probably had time off work (if he was in fact working?) and he needed drugs to get through the time with you because that truly was his MO in the past, no drugs - no intimacy. But it was all too much for him, obviously.
Was he all fake? Possibly not. Did he use drugs to cope with his life, absolutely and certainly to cope with his confusion over his relationship with you.
That's the missing piece of this puzzle - again, just my opinion based on what you have posted.
Based on that theory, how can he approach you sober?
Now, I know that you have said you talked all day long basically and facetimed etc etc and you think you would have known, but I think many here can attest to the fact that might not be true.
How many threads have you read where a person has been married to someone for years and years and they are supposedly in recovery and the partner is questioning whether or not they might be drinking again, they aren't sure, but they suspect. These are people that have lived in the same house with a person for years, married them, may have children with them, know their families etc etc and still, they question whether the person is actually drinking. That's how good some people are at hiding it, it becomes part of who they are really (maintaining a lower amount of alcohol and functioning well, at least on the surface).
You know, ever since I read your first post I have thought this, not about you being stuck, but a piece of the puzzle being missing. I even tried to respond to one of your posts last week with that but couldn't quite word it the way I wanted to, or hadn't quite formed the thoughts - anyway.
I think there were more drugs and more alcohol involved here than you knew about. I think he maintained (as in used less) while in contact with you. That whole blow out of drugs on the night you arrived is just too coincidental in my opinion.
His parents are (finally!) away, he probably had time off work (if he was in fact working?) and he needed drugs to get through the time with you because that truly was his MO in the past, no drugs - no intimacy. But it was all too much for him, obviously.
Was he all fake? Possibly not. Did he use drugs to cope with his life, absolutely and certainly to cope with his confusion over his relationship with you.
That's the missing piece of this puzzle - again, just my opinion based on what you have posted.
Based on that theory, how can he approach you sober?
Now, I know that you have said you talked all day long basically and facetimed etc etc and you think you would have known, but I think many here can attest to the fact that might not be true.
How many threads have you read where a person has been married to someone for years and years and they are supposedly in recovery and the partner is questioning whether or not they might be drinking again, they aren't sure, but they suspect. These are people that have lived in the same house with a person for years, married them, may have children with them, know their families etc etc and still, they question whether the person is actually drinking. That's how good some people are at hiding it, it becomes part of who they are really (maintaining a lower amount of alcohol and functioning well, at least on the surface).
He may have been using more than he was letting on, absolutely I'll never know that for sure. No he wasn't working at the time, only every now and again.
I suppose like I was saying to someone earlier, it's like anything in life, unless you've been in it, it's hard to get across. I suppose for me it's even a bit embarrassing to admit the details of the amount of contact I put up with let's say. He would wake most mornings early, say 4.30/5 am and could ring me, on video chat, sleep headed having just woke to tell me about a dream he had or his plan for day. Would then go down stairs for breakfast ring again while having bowl of serial with his mum etc etc so what I'm trying to say is I really really think I would have know if he was drinking most of time.
He lived with parents in well to do English village, they got rid of all alcohol from house, early mornings would be the dad getting up getting ready to head to his school (headmaster). He would be on phone to me while this was going on in background. During day then he would ring while out for walks with his mum and dog or just watching TV and I would mostly answer when I could. He had started going to AA meetings during this time, had a sponsor and got annoyed at times if parents were out of house too long (very codependent) hated being on his own. Actually I remember his first night he got a badge in as, his parents had been socialising same night, he got annoyed that they were drinking on his first night he got an AA badge. So what I'm trying to say is I really don't think there was a whole lot more alcohol going on, but I bow to the wisdom of people in here, who am I to know, maybe there was.
As for what you said "Did he use drugs to cope with his life, absolutely and certainly to cope with his confusion over his relationship with you", I agree 100 percent.
In the week after he entered rehab, his mum rang me. She said he had lots of "lovely" girlfriends in the past but that he always "sh#t all over them" to use her words. My feeling is there something of a pattern here, was I the first guy he's ever been with, he said yes, I'm unsure, has he always treated people like this, I'd say yes. A trail of Carnage.
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Originally Posted by hopeful4
I can completely understand. For a long time I needed to have those conversations, or thought I needed to. I wanted to know "why" and to reason it all out b/c that is how my head works. However, as a part of my own recovery I learned that very few addicts ever give that. One of the biggest parts of addiction is denial. For them to even admit anything was wrong, and they caused it, would be something most addicts will never be able to recognize.
Just my two cents.
I have always said that when your family breaks up you go through a definite grief process. You will go through it, it just may not be in the time frame you wish for.
Just my two cents.
I have always said that when your family breaks up you go through a definite grief process. You will go through it, it just may not be in the time frame you wish for.
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by Glenjo99
In the week after he entered rehab, his mum rang me. She said he had lots of "lovely" girlfriends in the past but that he always "sh#t all over them" to use her words. My feeling is there something of a pattern here, was I the first guy he's ever been with, he said yes, I'm unsure, has he always treated people like this, I'd say yes. A trail of Carnage.
The pattern seems to apply across all of his relationships if his mum is telling you this.
Some people, unfortunately, are just toxic. And if this is a pattern, then my guess would be that this man is one of those people.
Which is why I'm going to double down and say, even more strongly...focus on you. Heal you. Find what's right for you. Forgiveness? That's for you. Not for him. You don't need to be apologized to in order to forgive. Forgiveness is an act of letting a burden and a pain be lifted off your soul so you can move on and move forward, regardless of whether he asks for it, regardless of whether he actually knows he is receiving it.
As I said before, you're clearly a beautiful person with a generous heart and a lot of love to give. Don't forget to love yourself in this process. I hope that you will find happiness and peace.
Bless you on the journey.
-Eric
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,646
I suppose for me it's even a bit embarrassing to admit the details of the amount of contact I put up with let's say.
With that person, first off he lied almost immediately. He said he lived on his own etc, had an apartment. Finally revealed that wasn't the case, lived with his parents (his mother has a long term disability) and was helping with that. Big, huge, bright, flapping around hitting you in the face Red Flag.
Wasn't employed, because gosh darn it he just couldn't put up with the politics in the company he had worked at for several years. Red flags waving, oh is that a flag pole that just hit me in the knee.
Had a long term relationship years earlier and lived with the person. Oh hang on, "lived with" would be over-stating, since they both lived at home at the time. Ahhhh Red Flag incoming!!!!
Anyway, I managed to dodge all those red flags whew!! I ended up in one of the crappiest relationships ever.
A trail of Carnage
Sounds like he has been pandered to all his life.
This is not a reflection on alcoholics or alcoholism in fact. While many alcoholics might come from dysfunctional backgrounds and may display many self-centered traits, it is not exclusive to alcoholics. Just add alcohol though and it's a heady mix for them.
and got annoyed at times if parents were out of house too long (very codependent) hated being on his own. Actually I remember his first night he got a badge in as, his parents had been socialising same night, he got annoyed that they were drinking on his first night he got an AA badge.
He may have been sober on some occasions, not all alcoholics drink 24/7 as you know. However was he in recovery, sure doesn't sound like it.
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Originally Posted by ebecker1982
I have to apologize....I don't dig too deep but I assumed you were a woman. (Not that it ultimately matters in responding as love is love and we suffer regardless of our gender or orientation, but it's disrespectful to assume, so I do apologize.) That cleared up.....
The pattern seems to apply across all of his relationships if his mum is telling you this.
Some people, unfortunately, are just toxic. And if this is a pattern, then my guess would be that this man is one of those people.
Which is why I'm going to double down and say, even more strongly...focus on you. Heal you. Find what's right for you. Forgiveness? That's for you. Not for him. You don't need to be apologized to in order to forgive. Forgiveness is an act of letting a burden and a pain be lifted off your soul so you can move on and move forward, regardless of whether he asks for it, regardless of whether he actually knows he is receiving it.
As I said before, you're clearly a beautiful person with a generous heart and a lot of love to give. Don't forget to love yourself in this process. I hope that you will find happiness and peace.
Bless you on the journey.
-Eric
The pattern seems to apply across all of his relationships if his mum is telling you this.
Some people, unfortunately, are just toxic. And if this is a pattern, then my guess would be that this man is one of those people.
Which is why I'm going to double down and say, even more strongly...focus on you. Heal you. Find what's right for you. Forgiveness? That's for you. Not for him. You don't need to be apologized to in order to forgive. Forgiveness is an act of letting a burden and a pain be lifted off your soul so you can move on and move forward, regardless of whether he asks for it, regardless of whether he actually knows he is receiving it.
As I said before, you're clearly a beautiful person with a generous heart and a lot of love to give. Don't forget to love yourself in this process. I hope that you will find happiness and peace.
Bless you on the journey.
-Eric
The missing piece for me is not being able to have those conversations with him about it all, to see what was real etc, how I was impacted, how he was and all the rest
Had a very productive session today with a therapist supervisor (part of my job). She suggested I attracted him into my life to heal earlier trauma in my life, to allow me to recognise the low self worth I have, no boundaries etc and to heal it. She said if I had good confidence and self worth I would not have put with hardly any of his behaviour, but I chose to. Now is the time because of it, to improve and for the first time in my life, build a positive healthy strong confident relationship with myself. He has also helped me to recognise what I want and don't want in my next relationship. So for that I am grateful.
For the conversations I'm longing for, she suggested journaling, letter writing, and role play of necessary to get out everything I need to say to him. So as you suggested focus all on me now!
She suggested thinking about any contact from him in future is projection. That I need to focus on here and now, be in present and work on myself. If he did contact in future, I could reply or NOT, depending on what I felt about myself at that time, hopefully have built myself up a lot by then, but may not even happen.
I really felt it powerful chatting to her and feel more positive for first time in a while!
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Originally Posted by trailmix
No need for embarrassment, I have been in that kind of relationship with the almost constant contact. Frankly, after a while I found it stifling. At first it can be kind of flattering and reassuring when someone is long-distance.
With that person, first off he lied almost immediately. He said he lived on his own etc, had an apartment. Finally revealed that wasn't the case, lived with his parents (his mother has a long term disability) and was helping with that. Big, huge, bright, flapping around hitting you in the face Red Flag.
Wasn't employed, because gosh darn it he just couldn't put up with the politics in the company he had worked at for several years. Red flags waving, oh is that a flag pole that just hit me in the knee.
Had a long term relationship years earlier and lived with the person. Oh hang on, "lived with" would be over-stating, since they both lived at home at the time. Ahhhh Red Flag incoming!!!!
Anyway, I managed to dodge all those red flags whew!! I ended up in one of the crappiest relationships ever.
People like this do not give a rats ___ who they hurt along the way, they are far far too self centered to worry about that.
Sounds like he has been pandered to all his life.
This is not a reflection on alcoholics or alcoholism in fact. While many alcoholics might come from dysfunctional backgrounds and may display many self-centered traits, it is not exclusive to alcoholics. Just add alcohol though and it's a heady mix for them.
Huge, gigantic red flags from a boat here crashing in to the shore. This is a grown man we are talking about. Well a man anyway. It's allllll about him.
He may have been sober on some occasions, not all alcoholics drink 24/7 as you know. However was he in recovery, sure doesn't sound like it.
With that person, first off he lied almost immediately. He said he lived on his own etc, had an apartment. Finally revealed that wasn't the case, lived with his parents (his mother has a long term disability) and was helping with that. Big, huge, bright, flapping around hitting you in the face Red Flag.
Wasn't employed, because gosh darn it he just couldn't put up with the politics in the company he had worked at for several years. Red flags waving, oh is that a flag pole that just hit me in the knee.
Had a long term relationship years earlier and lived with the person. Oh hang on, "lived with" would be over-stating, since they both lived at home at the time. Ahhhh Red Flag incoming!!!!
Anyway, I managed to dodge all those red flags whew!! I ended up in one of the crappiest relationships ever.
People like this do not give a rats ___ who they hurt along the way, they are far far too self centered to worry about that.
Sounds like he has been pandered to all his life.
This is not a reflection on alcoholics or alcoholism in fact. While many alcoholics might come from dysfunctional backgrounds and may display many self-centered traits, it is not exclusive to alcoholics. Just add alcohol though and it's a heady mix for them.
Huge, gigantic red flags from a boat here crashing in to the shore. This is a grown man we are talking about. Well a man anyway. It's allllll about him.
He may have been sober on some occasions, not all alcoholics drink 24/7 as you know. However was he in recovery, sure doesn't sound like it.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
I get this, but to play Devil's Advocate a bit.....
He didn't exactly disappear, right? He stated his reasons for leaving & left. However abruptly this happened, it still IS closure to the situation. It's not uncertain why he left or whether he expects to return - he doesn't.
If this is true to the situation (apologies if not, sometimes I miss details in long threads) then it's as much about Acceptance as it is Grieving, isn't it?
He didn't exactly disappear, right? He stated his reasons for leaving & left. However abruptly this happened, it still IS closure to the situation. It's not uncertain why he left or whether he expects to return - he doesn't.
If this is true to the situation (apologies if not, sometimes I miss details in long threads) then it's as much about Acceptance as it is Grieving, isn't it?
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Originally Posted by MindfulMan
A good friend, spouse or parent who is suffering through a long illness and eventually dies also brings closure to a relationship and situation. That doesn't mean you don't grieve.
My point was that in ADDITION to grieving, there is likely an element of Acceptance to work through as well. They can exist alongside of one another but require different kinds of healing, IMO. In the earliest part of the process everything can feel so mixed together & overwhelming that it can be hard to separate this stuff.
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