Question on detachment
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Join Date: Mar 2018
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Question on detachment
Hi I hope it’s ok to ask a question where I’m confused about what detachment means and if it’s applicable in this scenario.
AH has a business - carpet cleaning and a cleaning agency. It’s very small and currently earns us very little a) because of his lack of management and b) he can’t physically work atm due to a foot operation he had recently so he’s paying someone else to do the manual work. And c) because of his “mistakes” we spend more on fines and alcohol than his business earns!
My dilemma is. Where do I draw the line when he asks me to “help” with his business?
Examples - He needs to advertise for new cleaners using Facebook and I have shown him numerous times how to create and share a post but he still maintains he can’t remember how to do this each time. So I end up doing it for him and feeling resentful. (It attracts a lot of enquiries to deal with) He also expects me to print off any paperwork he needs claiming he “can’t find the documents” on the pc. He never does the tax returns and this year I stayed strong by refusing to do them for him until we got a hefty fine for overdue accounts and I again ended up doing them.
Because it hurts our family finances when we get these fines.
Other things he fails at regards the business are -
taxing the van (more fines) remembering to put fuel in the van (breaks down and cost us £120 in recovery. I said “expensive mistake” and he says I could be “more supportive”!)
remembering client bookings - every week we have muddled up bookings, double bookings, wrong dates etc
- Remembering client addresses (he will leave the house to meet someone then ring me for the address)
Answering mail - paying fines and bills on time or at all. His post is building up all around his favourite spot on the sofa and I refuse to tidy it up anymore so he sits there every day surrounded by demands for payment, forms to fill in etc and he just rests his beer can on them.
So I’m the unpaid secretary basically.
Our last joint business failed by the way. Seven years and we lost the franchise agreement because he consistently forgot to pay fees after I had our daughter and was sick with post natal depression so I took my eye off the ball and we got into huge debt. I told him right from the offset that if he were to start a new business this time I wanted no part in it. He doesn’t like working for someone else tho.. so he went ahead promising he’d do all the admin himself.
My mum told me the other day I was cutting my nose off to spite my face by refusing to do these things for him because we all end up financially hurt when I don’t do them. She said he can’t help it, it’s just that “doing admin is his weak point” (I have told her about his drinking now but not sure she gets it totally)
I kind of get her point and I ended up this weekend spending my time advertising for new cleaners via his business page and dealing with enquiries. But I feel that if he were in a day job - by now he would have been fired, I wouldn’t have been there to bail him out and carry him. He would have been forced to face the fact his drinking is causing all these issues and someone else would have said it (-ie not me!)
Is “detachment” also not commenting when these fines come through? Do I say I’m angry with him (which leads to a big row because I’m not being supportive) or do I walk away and say nothing?
Of course he’s actually quite happy coasting along on the pretence that he successfully runs his own business when in all honesty he isn’t. No consequences.. if I let him fail then yes I get hurt too but in a way I don’t care anymore. I’m not sure if I am feeling like this to hurt him though and feel a sense of guilt at my anger and a responsibility to maintain the status quo.
(I’m unable to work myself as I get carer allowance for my daughter and need to be available for her. I am working on learning new skills on my own though so that i can work from home freelance.)
Am I just being stubborn? Which is the healthiest way to approach this situation?
AH has a business - carpet cleaning and a cleaning agency. It’s very small and currently earns us very little a) because of his lack of management and b) he can’t physically work atm due to a foot operation he had recently so he’s paying someone else to do the manual work. And c) because of his “mistakes” we spend more on fines and alcohol than his business earns!
My dilemma is. Where do I draw the line when he asks me to “help” with his business?
Examples - He needs to advertise for new cleaners using Facebook and I have shown him numerous times how to create and share a post but he still maintains he can’t remember how to do this each time. So I end up doing it for him and feeling resentful. (It attracts a lot of enquiries to deal with) He also expects me to print off any paperwork he needs claiming he “can’t find the documents” on the pc. He never does the tax returns and this year I stayed strong by refusing to do them for him until we got a hefty fine for overdue accounts and I again ended up doing them.
Because it hurts our family finances when we get these fines.
Other things he fails at regards the business are -
taxing the van (more fines) remembering to put fuel in the van (breaks down and cost us £120 in recovery. I said “expensive mistake” and he says I could be “more supportive”!)
remembering client bookings - every week we have muddled up bookings, double bookings, wrong dates etc
- Remembering client addresses (he will leave the house to meet someone then ring me for the address)
Answering mail - paying fines and bills on time or at all. His post is building up all around his favourite spot on the sofa and I refuse to tidy it up anymore so he sits there every day surrounded by demands for payment, forms to fill in etc and he just rests his beer can on them.
So I’m the unpaid secretary basically.
Our last joint business failed by the way. Seven years and we lost the franchise agreement because he consistently forgot to pay fees after I had our daughter and was sick with post natal depression so I took my eye off the ball and we got into huge debt. I told him right from the offset that if he were to start a new business this time I wanted no part in it. He doesn’t like working for someone else tho.. so he went ahead promising he’d do all the admin himself.
My mum told me the other day I was cutting my nose off to spite my face by refusing to do these things for him because we all end up financially hurt when I don’t do them. She said he can’t help it, it’s just that “doing admin is his weak point” (I have told her about his drinking now but not sure she gets it totally)
I kind of get her point and I ended up this weekend spending my time advertising for new cleaners via his business page and dealing with enquiries. But I feel that if he were in a day job - by now he would have been fired, I wouldn’t have been there to bail him out and carry him. He would have been forced to face the fact his drinking is causing all these issues and someone else would have said it (-ie not me!)
Is “detachment” also not commenting when these fines come through? Do I say I’m angry with him (which leads to a big row because I’m not being supportive) or do I walk away and say nothing?
Of course he’s actually quite happy coasting along on the pretence that he successfully runs his own business when in all honesty he isn’t. No consequences.. if I let him fail then yes I get hurt too but in a way I don’t care anymore. I’m not sure if I am feeling like this to hurt him though and feel a sense of guilt at my anger and a responsibility to maintain the status quo.
(I’m unable to work myself as I get carer allowance for my daughter and need to be available for her. I am working on learning new skills on my own though so that i can work from home freelance.)
Am I just being stubborn? Which is the healthiest way to approach this situation?
Sober since 10th April 2012
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Hi RB, I see your mother's point. It's not just a matter of letting the cards fall where they may as it affects you as well.
Here's a thought - have you considered taking over the business completely and employing him or not it that suits you? You're not being paid at the moment but if you're doing the work anyway why not pay yourself for it? Would that be possible?
I know it could lead to him becoming even more passive and working less, but you'd be in a better situation than now. You're good at these things and it might fit around your caring duties as well.
Just a thought.
Here's a thought - have you considered taking over the business completely and employing him or not it that suits you? You're not being paid at the moment but if you're doing the work anyway why not pay yourself for it? Would that be possible?
I know it could lead to him becoming even more passive and working less, but you'd be in a better situation than now. You're good at these things and it might fit around your caring duties as well.
Just a thought.
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Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by FeelingGreat 
Hi RB, I see your mother's point. It's not just a matter of letting the cards fall where they may as it affects you as well.
Here's a thought - have you considered taking over the business completely and employing him or not it that suits you? You're not being paid at the moment but if you're doing the work anyway why not pay yourself for it? Would that be possible?
I know it could lead to him becoming even more passive and working less, but you'd be in a better situation than now. You're good at these things and it might fit around your caring duties as well.
Just a thought.
Here's a thought - have you considered taking over the business completely and employing him or not it that suits you? You're not being paid at the moment but if you're doing the work anyway why not pay yourself for it? Would that be possible?
I know it could lead to him becoming even more passive and working less, but you'd be in a better situation than now. You're good at these things and it might fit around your caring duties as well.
Just a thought.
but I would loose my carers allowance, also I honestly don’t enjoy the work that his business is. I think you need to be passionate if you run a business and I just can’t be about this one.
I really don’t like dealing with the clients at all and if I were to have a business of my own well it wouldn’t be that one.
I’m a writer, I don’t get paid (yet!) but I do value my time writing a blog and I’m working on a book. I am also learning photoshop and Vegas Pro video editing so I can make book trailers and have been paid to do two already. I’d resent having to run what I do essentially see as “his” business because I’d have no time to persue my own projects anymore, and yes he would just give up and drink all day long watching the tv.
If I took over I’d have to stop him from talking to clients full stop because his monumental F ups are embarrassing for me and I can’t live with being associated with him in that way. Selfish but it’s the boundary I put in place after the last time that I don’t work with him. (Even though that boundary is being pushed now)
But I do see you have a point and maybe I should be thinking much more seriously about getting my own business off the ground.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Posts: 6,047
[QUOTE=RainingButtons;6868695], also I honestly don’t enjoy the work that his business is. I think you need to be passionate if you run a business and I just can’t be about this one.
OK I realise it's not ideal, but there's a difference between doing something grudgingly and hating it, and working for pay. I hate housework, but pay me to clean and I do a really good job. You might take a wage for the hours you spend picking up after him.
I disagree about being passionate about a business to run it, but you do need to be methodical and hard working, and it sounds like you are.
You could also think of it as a project to build up a good customer base over a set time, then sell. I believe it's how many franchise holders work. Do you have any friends or relatives who run businesses who you could discuss with?
OK I realise it's not ideal, but there's a difference between doing something grudgingly and hating it, and working for pay. I hate housework, but pay me to clean and I do a really good job. You might take a wage for the hours you spend picking up after him.
I disagree about being passionate about a business to run it, but you do need to be methodical and hard working, and it sounds like you are.
You could also think of it as a project to build up a good customer base over a set time, then sell. I believe it's how many franchise holders work. Do you have any friends or relatives who run businesses who you could discuss with?
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,144
Good morning, If you have little interest in the business than I say don't do the work, concentrate on your passion. My H works out of the house. If he was unwilling or incapable of doing the work I wouldn't go to his job and take over his duties. Your husband is managing his company well...he's delegated it all to you.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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Hi Raining,
I understand what you are saying. I think Feeling Great has made some really solid suggestions however if you decide to not go that route, then I agree with your Mom.
It is in your best interest to do the minimum possible to ensure he doesn't get any more fines. Ensure the taxes get done, ensure that insurance etc is up to date on the work van (heck even take it to put gas in once or twice a week).
Other than that, if you just want to let it go, then I would. No sorting out clients or doing advertising etc etc. Just enough so you don't end up paying out of pocket.
Should the business fail he will end up at home all the time, probably drinking.
I understand what you are saying. I think Feeling Great has made some really solid suggestions however if you decide to not go that route, then I agree with your Mom.
It is in your best interest to do the minimum possible to ensure he doesn't get any more fines. Ensure the taxes get done, ensure that insurance etc is up to date on the work van (heck even take it to put gas in once or twice a week).
Other than that, if you just want to let it go, then I would. No sorting out clients or doing advertising etc etc. Just enough so you don't end up paying out of pocket.
Should the business fail he will end up at home all the time, probably drinking.
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Join Date: Mar 2018
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Thankyou everyone
Yes the suggestions are all good. It’s good to have these other points of view.
It’s also good to clarify this whole detachment issue. I’d hate to think by doing these things however begrudgingly that I’m making things worse. I guess I’m not doing anything “wrong” or being a codependent by doing things for the business. There are grey areas like this that the general detachment advice doesn’t cover.
Yes the suggestions are all good. It’s good to have these other points of view.
It’s also good to clarify this whole detachment issue. I’d hate to think by doing these things however begrudgingly that I’m making things worse. I guess I’m not doing anything “wrong” or being a codependent by doing things for the business. There are grey areas like this that the general detachment advice doesn’t cover.
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[QUOTE=FeelingGreat;6868742] He wouldn’t sign the business over to me at this current point in time but it’s a good idea that if I keep I afloat it’s still worth selling one day even if it’s just the van equipment website and customer base! I’d forgotten they even had value I’ve been so negative in my outlook recently. Thankyou for reminding me it’s not all bad!
Originally Posted by RainingButtons
, also I honestly don’t enjoy the work that his business is. I think you need to be passionate if you run a business and I just can’t be about this one.
OK I realise it's not ideal, but there's a difference between doing something grudgingly and hating it, and working for pay. I hate housework, but pay me to clean and I do a really good job. You might take a wage for the hours you spend picking up after him.
True...
I disagree about being passionate about a business to run it, but you do need to be methodical and hard working, and it sounds like you are.
You could also think of it as a project to build up a good customer base over a set time, then sell. I believe it's how many franchise holders work. Do you have any friends or relatives who run businesses who you could discuss with?
OK I realise it's not ideal, but there's a difference between doing something grudgingly and hating it, and working for pay. I hate housework, but pay me to clean and I do a really good job. You might take a wage for the hours you spend picking up after him.
True...
I disagree about being passionate about a business to run it, but you do need to be methodical and hard working, and it sounds like you are.
You could also think of it as a project to build up a good customer base over a set time, then sell. I believe it's how many franchise holders work. Do you have any friends or relatives who run businesses who you could discuss with?
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 497
Originally Posted by RainingButtons
Thankyou everyone
Yes the suggestions are all good. It’s good to have these other points of view.
It’s also good to clarify this whole detachment issue. I’d hate to think by doing these things however begrudgingly that I’m making things worse. I guess I’m not doing anything “wrong” or being a codependent by doing things for the business. There are grey areas like this that the general detachment advice doesn’t cover.
Yes the suggestions are all good. It’s good to have these other points of view.
It’s also good to clarify this whole detachment issue. I’d hate to think by doing these things however begrudgingly that I’m making things worse. I guess I’m not doing anything “wrong” or being a codependent by doing things for the business. There are grey areas like this that the general detachment advice doesn’t cover.
IMO, when it comes to the matter of survival, you do what you need to do (within reason) whether the passion is there or not
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RainingButtons......remember that detachment and boundaries are for your own protection.
For me, it helps to ask the question....is it good for my own welfare or bad for my own welfare? In this case, it appears, to me, that keeping your family out of economic disaster is supportive of your own welfare, in the big picture....
If one thinks in terms of not enabling by not doing something for another that they can and should be doing for themselves......well---if you look at this situation---I doubt that your husband is really capable of doing the kinds of things that you have pointed out---or, at least, not doing them very well...because practicing alcoholics, at his apparent level, have horrible memories....especially, short-term memory.......lol...People with horrible memories don't make very good secretaries.....
I have no idea if he has any other co-occurring conditions, such as some attention deficit...like Adhd, and such.....that, of course, would be an even further complication....
For me, it helps to ask the question....is it good for my own welfare or bad for my own welfare? In this case, it appears, to me, that keeping your family out of economic disaster is supportive of your own welfare, in the big picture....
If one thinks in terms of not enabling by not doing something for another that they can and should be doing for themselves......well---if you look at this situation---I doubt that your husband is really capable of doing the kinds of things that you have pointed out---or, at least, not doing them very well...because practicing alcoholics, at his apparent level, have horrible memories....especially, short-term memory.......lol...People with horrible memories don't make very good secretaries.....
I have no idea if he has any other co-occurring conditions, such as some attention deficit...like Adhd, and such.....that, of course, would be an even further complication....
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
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I'm not sure if this is a helpful question or not and I don't know about running a business, but how much of the trouble is because your fiances are joint? Again, I don't know about running a business. I just wonder if it's possible to keep your finances as separate as possible? Or at least have money set aside for you? Perhaps if the money that he spends on his business is in one account, and the money for everything else is in your name, not his? Or is this a little too controlling? I don't know if this is a good suggestion, but I thought I would float it in case it is.
Of course if he does something like breaks the car, you'll have to pay for it or have a broken car and no transport. Very complicated. Sorry, I'm not more helpful. Ditto what Dandy said. Detachment is for your protection. Everything suggested by Alanon is for your protection. So if it's not self-protective to let him manage the out come of his business alone, you might have to step in. I don't know. So complicated.
Of course if he does something like breaks the car, you'll have to pay for it or have a broken car and no transport. Very complicated. Sorry, I'm not more helpful. Ditto what Dandy said. Detachment is for your protection. Everything suggested by Alanon is for your protection. So if it's not self-protective to let him manage the out come of his business alone, you might have to step in. I don't know. So complicated.
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i think i'd step back and look at the bigger picture. budgeting 101.
income is essential, preferably steady reliable income.
either this business is money maker or a drain. this is the second "business" that he (and you) have had, and both appear headed in the same direction. he doesn't really want to be a business OWNER and all that is involved in making a profitable turn - he uses it to ditch having to do the 9-5 gig and follow the rules.
so let's say you do dive in and "manage" the business.....what does that really change? he is still central to that "plan" and he's about as reliable as wet cardboard. it also would put you in the position of managing HIM. so much for detachment......
what do you want? is it your plan to stay with him? to stay in this messy, unsettled, chaotic situation? my mom used to say "don't throw good money after bad".
income is essential, preferably steady reliable income.
either this business is money maker or a drain. this is the second "business" that he (and you) have had, and both appear headed in the same direction. he doesn't really want to be a business OWNER and all that is involved in making a profitable turn - he uses it to ditch having to do the 9-5 gig and follow the rules.
so let's say you do dive in and "manage" the business.....what does that really change? he is still central to that "plan" and he's about as reliable as wet cardboard. it also would put you in the position of managing HIM. so much for detachment......
what do you want? is it your plan to stay with him? to stay in this messy, unsettled, chaotic situation? my mom used to say "don't throw good money after bad".
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Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz
I'm not sure if this is a helpful question or not and I don't know about running a business, but how much of the trouble is because your fiances are joint? Again, I don't know about running a business. I just wonder if it's possible to keep your finances as separate as possible? Or at least have money set aside for you? Perhaps if the money that he spends on his business is in one account, and the money for everything else is in your name, not his? Or is this a little too controlling? I don't know if this is a good suggestion, but I thought I would float it in case it is.
Of course if he does something like breaks the car, you'll have to pay for it or have a broken car and no transport. Very complicated. Sorry, I'm not more helpful. Ditto what Dandy said. Detachment is for your protection. Everything suggested by Alanon is for your protection. So if it's not self-protective to let him manage the out come of his business alone, you might have to step in. I don't know. So complicated.
Of course if he does something like breaks the car, you'll have to pay for it or have a broken car and no transport. Very complicated. Sorry, I'm not more helpful. Ditto what Dandy said. Detachment is for your protection. Everything suggested by Alanon is for your protection. So if it's not self-protective to let him manage the out come of his business alone, you might have to step in. I don't know. So complicated.
I guess it hurts us all financially because he costs more than he earns and he isn’t contributing to the household. I’d get more money if I were a single mum.
Not sure where I’m going with regards to my future with him as yet... I’ve not made that decision to leave or to stay yet 😬 but I do need to start a back up plan I would feel better if I could save a little.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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It sounds like there are two issue:
1. Making sure you have enough income to meet the family's needs.
2. Being resentful of your husband because he's basically treating you like a spare brain - you do all the remembering and other boring mental tasks.
I don't know if you can resolve both issues at the same time. If you resign as Spare Brain, he may not earn enough money to support his family. If you continue to run the business from behind the scenes, he's going to remain lazy and dependent. I guess the question is: which issue feels like the biggest to you?
1. Making sure you have enough income to meet the family's needs.
2. Being resentful of your husband because he's basically treating you like a spare brain - you do all the remembering and other boring mental tasks.
I don't know if you can resolve both issues at the same time. If you resign as Spare Brain, he may not earn enough money to support his family. If you continue to run the business from behind the scenes, he's going to remain lazy and dependent. I guess the question is: which issue feels like the biggest to you?
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doing admin is his weak point... But I feel that if he were in a day job - by now he would have been fired...
Doing admin is what owning a business is all about. There are those of us that stink at it, and function very well in ordinary jobs with someone else in charge.That doesn't mean we don't daydream about being our own bosses, but it does mean we make an honest assessment of our strengths and move forward accordingly.
He wouldn’t sign the business over to me at this current point in time but it’s a good idea that if I keep I afloat it’s still worth selling one day
My boss is going to retire someday. He has hired a woman who will hopefully takeover the business one day. Part of her compensation package is gaining equity in the business as time goes on. I am not privy to the schedule. But. in addition to her pay, she gains an increasing percentage of the business.
This would be reasonable in your case. If your husband can't do administrative work, and can't do physical labor, one would be tempted to ask exactly what he does do.
Doing admin is what owning a business is all about. There are those of us that stink at it, and function very well in ordinary jobs with someone else in charge.That doesn't mean we don't daydream about being our own bosses, but it does mean we make an honest assessment of our strengths and move forward accordingly.
He wouldn’t sign the business over to me at this current point in time but it’s a good idea that if I keep I afloat it’s still worth selling one day
My boss is going to retire someday. He has hired a woman who will hopefully takeover the business one day. Part of her compensation package is gaining equity in the business as time goes on. I am not privy to the schedule. But. in addition to her pay, she gains an increasing percentage of the business.
This would be reasonable in your case. If your husband can't do administrative work, and can't do physical labor, one would be tempted to ask exactly what he does do.
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Hi, Raining.
Well, you are in an unenviable position now, but you don’t have to be forever.
I often ask: where do you want to be in five years, or ten?
Unless your spouse stops drinking, things will just get worse, as alcohol addiction is progressive.
So...more forgetting to put gas in the vehicle (really? Who does that?) getting clients and schedules muddled, not paying taxes on time, etc.
If your goal is financial stability, then I think the advice you have been given is sound: step up, use your good brain to keep the business afloat.
With financial stability, you can think about other options, maybe morphing the business into something you prefer more.
Spitballing here: providing cleaning and restoration after pipes burst or a fire is lucrative, I hear, and you have the satisfaction of restoring someone’s life to normalcy. Might be something to consider.
No one can tell you to leave. Only you can decide.
But what, really, does your unhelpful spouse bring to your life besides headaches?
Hope this doesn’t sound harsh, as that is not my intent.
Good luck and good thoughts.
Well, you are in an unenviable position now, but you don’t have to be forever.
I often ask: where do you want to be in five years, or ten?
Unless your spouse stops drinking, things will just get worse, as alcohol addiction is progressive.
So...more forgetting to put gas in the vehicle (really? Who does that?) getting clients and schedules muddled, not paying taxes on time, etc.
If your goal is financial stability, then I think the advice you have been given is sound: step up, use your good brain to keep the business afloat.
With financial stability, you can think about other options, maybe morphing the business into something you prefer more.
Spitballing here: providing cleaning and restoration after pipes burst or a fire is lucrative, I hear, and you have the satisfaction of restoring someone’s life to normalcy. Might be something to consider.
No one can tell you to leave. Only you can decide.
But what, really, does your unhelpful spouse bring to your life besides headaches?
Hope this doesn’t sound harsh, as that is not my intent.
Good luck and good thoughts.
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Join Date: May 2010
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My take on this is that you are financially tied to him, so letting fines and financial hard falls build up when it falls on you as well, is asking for trouble.
If the business generates money, hire someone to do the admin. If not, force him to close it and get a day job.
I have yet to see an alcoholic run a business successfully for any amount of time. I have however seen many on this forum devastated by the financial fallout of having their qualifier ruin their finances by unsuccessfully running a business.
If the business generates money, hire someone to do the admin. If not, force him to close it and get a day job.
I have yet to see an alcoholic run a business successfully for any amount of time. I have however seen many on this forum devastated by the financial fallout of having their qualifier ruin their finances by unsuccessfully running a business.
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Join Date: Sep 2013
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I had to accept that any plans I made couldn't rely on him seeing the light or not getting any worse. Staying with him got more expensive as he progressed in his disease and I paid his share of things when his money had all gone to booze and paying fines.
He struggled to hold down a part-time 5 night a week job, I can't imagine him being responsible for running a business. If your husband did what he's doing right now with a regular job, how long would he realistically be able to keep it?
I really thought my ex was a "functioning" alcoholic. A lot of that "functioning" was the result of me constantly picking up the slack so he could get by doing the bare minimum, and most of the time he couldn't even manage that.
He struggled to hold down a part-time 5 night a week job, I can't imagine him being responsible for running a business. If your husband did what he's doing right now with a regular job, how long would he realistically be able to keep it?
I really thought my ex was a "functioning" alcoholic. A lot of that "functioning" was the result of me constantly picking up the slack so he could get by doing the bare minimum, and most of the time he couldn't even manage that.
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