What to look for from alcoholic
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 8
What to look for from alcoholic
The point of this thread - with an alcoholic boyfriend, what commitment towards sobriety do I need in order not to dump him?
First, thanks to everyone for participating on this page. I've gone to Al Anon meetings, spoken with friends, and read stuff, but your insights have been the most helpful information I've found.
A few weeks ago I started dating a close friend of mine. We're part of a tight circle of friends, grew closer over months, and then decided to pursue more. It's gone great, he's wonderful, except...
He is a high functioning alcoholic and in deep denial about it. His situation is better than most - he's great at his job, is an incredible athlete (though acknowledges he'd be better if he didn't drink), and accomplishes more in a day than I do. But he drinks heavily and has all the signs of an addict - alcohol hinders his athletic training, he makes excuses for drinking ("I don't need the alcohol, I drink because mixing the drink relaxes me"), he jokes about alcoholism in his family, and he drinks as much as he can, alone and in groups, even all day if he has a free weekend (though he rarely gets drunk because his tolerance is so high). I've noticed instances where he's brushed me off and been rude/antisocial, and it finally clicked that it was because I was inadvertently interfering with his drinking in those moments. You get between him and his liquor and he's not pleasant.
Anyway, I realize I will probably need to end the romantic relationship, which breaks my heart and will be difficult given that we have so many friends and activities in common.
But I want to have an intervention conversation with him first. I'll tell him how much I care about him, say how I've seen his drinking hurt his life, and describe how its affected me and how I feel about it.
Then I want to ask him questions about his drinking - how he feels about his drinking; how long it's been going on (he's only 28); has he ever wanted to cut back; how would he describe his relationship with alcohol. If he refuses to engage or acknowledge that his drinking is problematic, I'll have to end it.
But, if he does engage, what positive steps could he be willing to take that'd allow me to continue the relationship? Essentially, what am I looking for? I've brainstormed some options - willingness to go to AA or pursue therapy, commitment to cutting back or eliminating alcohol and see how that change impacts him...what else?
Also, do you have any other advice about an intervention conversation - what other information data points should I ask him for? And if you think this is useless and I should just walk away, feel free to say that too.
Thank you
First, thanks to everyone for participating on this page. I've gone to Al Anon meetings, spoken with friends, and read stuff, but your insights have been the most helpful information I've found.
A few weeks ago I started dating a close friend of mine. We're part of a tight circle of friends, grew closer over months, and then decided to pursue more. It's gone great, he's wonderful, except...
He is a high functioning alcoholic and in deep denial about it. His situation is better than most - he's great at his job, is an incredible athlete (though acknowledges he'd be better if he didn't drink), and accomplishes more in a day than I do. But he drinks heavily and has all the signs of an addict - alcohol hinders his athletic training, he makes excuses for drinking ("I don't need the alcohol, I drink because mixing the drink relaxes me"), he jokes about alcoholism in his family, and he drinks as much as he can, alone and in groups, even all day if he has a free weekend (though he rarely gets drunk because his tolerance is so high). I've noticed instances where he's brushed me off and been rude/antisocial, and it finally clicked that it was because I was inadvertently interfering with his drinking in those moments. You get between him and his liquor and he's not pleasant.
Anyway, I realize I will probably need to end the romantic relationship, which breaks my heart and will be difficult given that we have so many friends and activities in common.
But I want to have an intervention conversation with him first. I'll tell him how much I care about him, say how I've seen his drinking hurt his life, and describe how its affected me and how I feel about it.
Then I want to ask him questions about his drinking - how he feels about his drinking; how long it's been going on (he's only 28); has he ever wanted to cut back; how would he describe his relationship with alcohol. If he refuses to engage or acknowledge that his drinking is problematic, I'll have to end it.
But, if he does engage, what positive steps could he be willing to take that'd allow me to continue the relationship? Essentially, what am I looking for? I've brainstormed some options - willingness to go to AA or pursue therapy, commitment to cutting back or eliminating alcohol and see how that change impacts him...what else?
Also, do you have any other advice about an intervention conversation - what other information data points should I ask him for? And if you think this is useless and I should just walk away, feel free to say that too.
Thank you
Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
Hi, Haven.
Welcome..
My opinion? You can tell him how his drinking affects you and your feelings for him. You can express worry for his health down the road.
(Btw, everyone is high functioning at 28. Add a couple of decades and see how functioning he is then.)
I think that is the way to begin the conversation, and see where it goes.
Where it could go?
He agrees with you, expresses his own concern with his drinking, and gets help through a recovery program.
Where it likely will go?
He gets defensive, justifies why he drinks, tells you it’s your problem, not his, and generally blows you off.
I am hoping for the former, but I would expect the latter.
Peace.
Welcome..
My opinion? You can tell him how his drinking affects you and your feelings for him. You can express worry for his health down the road.
(Btw, everyone is high functioning at 28. Add a couple of decades and see how functioning he is then.)
I think that is the way to begin the conversation, and see where it goes.
Where it could go?
He agrees with you, expresses his own concern with his drinking, and gets help through a recovery program.
Where it likely will go?
He gets defensive, justifies why he drinks, tells you it’s your problem, not his, and generally blows you off.
I am hoping for the former, but I would expect the latter.
Peace.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 1,737
If his drinking is as bad as you fear, getting sober will take his full attention. Say your piece, let him know you'll support him should he choose to do the significant and lifelong work it takes to get sober, and step aside.
The odds of him being convinced from your conversation are sadly quite low. Most alcoholics need quite a bit more evidence than what it sounds like he has experienced. much less acknowledged, to truly commit.
Apologies for the negative tone to this reply, but this is my experience. My advice to you would be to have the conversation as to why you are ending the romantic relationship, have no expectation of him having an epiphany as a result, and moving on with your life.
The odds of him being convinced from your conversation are sadly quite low. Most alcoholics need quite a bit more evidence than what it sounds like he has experienced. much less acknowledged, to truly commit.
Apologies for the negative tone to this reply, but this is my experience. My advice to you would be to have the conversation as to why you are ending the romantic relationship, have no expectation of him having an epiphany as a result, and moving on with your life.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Haven......the following link is for an article that is a pretty good yardstick.....
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...-reposted.html (10 Ways to Tell When an Addict or Alcoholic is Full of ****, reposted)
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...-reposted.html (10 Ways to Tell When an Addict or Alcoholic is Full of ****, reposted)
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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His situation is better than most - he's great at his job, is an incredible athlete (though acknowledges he'd be better if he didn't drink), and accomplishes more in a day than I do.
He continued being a high functioning alcoholic for many years... my mental health deteriorated quicker than his since I was stressed about the situation but he had a solution that "worked" for him.
The quote above still describes him on days he's able to show up mentally.
Many days it's beyond him... some days I don't recognize even a glimpse of that man he used to be. He's bounced between rehabs, sobriety/recovery, relapses... and yes, that's taken a very great toll on all our family.
The three C's: I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it. Sounds easy enough.... except there's so much more.... it truly is a family disease that psychologically effects all involved.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
we've been dating for a COUPLE WEEKS
what commitment towards sobriety do I need in order not to dump him?
a couple weeks of dating and you are seeing that he appears to have a severe drinking problem. he has HAD this problem for a long time. you are just now seeing it. instead of diving into the "Change Him so he is suitable for ME" campaign, perhaps it would be better to accept that he has traits you do not like or are not comfortable with and move on??
what commitment towards sobriety do I need in order not to dump him?
a couple weeks of dating and you are seeing that he appears to have a severe drinking problem. he has HAD this problem for a long time. you are just now seeing it. instead of diving into the "Change Him so he is suitable for ME" campaign, perhaps it would be better to accept that he has traits you do not like or are not comfortable with and move on??
Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 284
I encourage to read other posts from people who have been in relationships with As for 10, 20, 30, 40 years....it is a daily struggle and it is a HARD life. Looking back, I wish I would've listened to my gut and walked away.
I wish you clarity and the strength to think of about the type of life you want for yourself....if you think this is the life you deserve, I hope you'll take a look at that too.
I wish you clarity and the strength to think of about the type of life you want for yourself....if you think this is the life you deserve, I hope you'll take a look at that too.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
Well. You certainly are in for a ride, I can tell you that much.
The third scenario (and there are eleventy, I'll just tag onto Maudcat's post) is that he says, "Oh, I know. I'll cut back. C'mere sweetie *bigsmile-smoochysmooch*." You will melt, and here comes Groundhog Day.
You don't live with him (thank the stars for that.) I don't think you really have much say in what a 28 YO full grown man does. He can certainly say one thing and do another for quite some time, since you don't see him 24/7.
Heck, when I was the wife, I didn't have any say. I'm sure I can get an "Amen" from the spouses here.
Just my experience of past alcoholic BFs/husband.
Also my experience tells me to run far and run fast. Once I know what I know...
The third scenario (and there are eleventy, I'll just tag onto Maudcat's post) is that he says, "Oh, I know. I'll cut back. C'mere sweetie *bigsmile-smoochysmooch*." You will melt, and here comes Groundhog Day.
You don't live with him (thank the stars for that.) I don't think you really have much say in what a 28 YO full grown man does. He can certainly say one thing and do another for quite some time, since you don't see him 24/7.
Heck, when I was the wife, I didn't have any say. I'm sure I can get an "Amen" from the spouses here.
Just my experience of past alcoholic BFs/husband.
Also my experience tells me to run far and run fast. Once I know what I know...
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
For me, the red flag is you saying that he gets irritable and anxious if he thinks you're coming between him and his alcohol. I think all you need to say is that you aren't willing to be in a three-way relationship involving him and his bottle. It's like dating someone who's already married to a very high-maintenance husband or wife, except it will most likely get worse over time.
If you've only been dating for a few weeks, you really don't owe him a long conversation. He can't be in a committed relationship with you and also with alcohol, so it's up to him to choose which is more important. You really don't have much influence over which one he chooses.
(At the risk of giving too much advice, I would caution you against bargaining or negotiating - "If you go to AA, I'll keep dating you", or "If you promise to drink less, we can keep going out". If he's going to alter his drinking behavior, it will have to be because he understands his behavior as destructive or problematic, not because it's become a problem for somebody else. He may figure this out very soon, or he may not figure it out for decades. All you can do in the moment is decide whether you are or are not willing to live with the situation as it presents itself right now).
If you've only been dating for a few weeks, you really don't owe him a long conversation. He can't be in a committed relationship with you and also with alcohol, so it's up to him to choose which is more important. You really don't have much influence over which one he chooses.
(At the risk of giving too much advice, I would caution you against bargaining or negotiating - "If you go to AA, I'll keep dating you", or "If you promise to drink less, we can keep going out". If he's going to alter his drinking behavior, it will have to be because he understands his behavior as destructive or problematic, not because it's become a problem for somebody else. He may figure this out very soon, or he may not figure it out for decades. All you can do in the moment is decide whether you are or are not willing to live with the situation as it presents itself right now).
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
" with an alcoholic boyfriend, what commitment towards sobriety do I need in order not to dump him? "
i cant answer that for ya, but can for every women i was in a relationship with.
and just my opinion of what they should have done:
the moment they started noticing alcohol was my #1 priority was the time they should have tossed me to the curb.
toss me to the curb or get dragged down with me.
even when i was one of them "high functioning' alcoholics.
which many people seem to only look act the action thing of high functioning. imo, its important to look at the functioning of the important part-the thinking.
i cant answer that for ya, but can for every women i was in a relationship with.
and just my opinion of what they should have done:
the moment they started noticing alcohol was my #1 priority was the time they should have tossed me to the curb.
toss me to the curb or get dragged down with me.
even when i was one of them "high functioning' alcoholics.
which many people seem to only look act the action thing of high functioning. imo, its important to look at the functioning of the important part-the thinking.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,235
I would caution you against bargaining or negotiating
it would be better to accept that he has traits you do not like
As Sasha said, avoid the bargaining because he MAY give up the alcohol, but if you continue to feel that you're being brushed aside, you will back yourself into a corner if you promise to stay with him "if only" he gives up drinking.
The fact of the matter is, you can leave this relationship if it simply isn't working out for you. If you stay with him because you pity him, that's not much a relationship at all.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,792
There's a lot of good advice from many stages of recovery. I hope you can understand.
A couple weeks of dating and you are on a support group looking for advice on how to fix him. Red flag!!
He doesn't have a problem with his drinking so it's not his problem, it's yours. You need to realize that alcoholism is bigger then all of us and it usually wins. I would let him know that you are not ready for a relationship and want to be friends. Back off and let it go at that.
You do not need to give him an explanation of why. Most addicts know they "might" have an issue with their drinking. Thinking that your abf will give up his one true love, the thing that has always been there for him, for a girlfriend of 2 weeks, is not even comprehendable. I know that you want to help him, but I don't think he is any where near the state of an intervention. Protect yourself and run fast. Hugs
A couple weeks of dating and you are on a support group looking for advice on how to fix him. Red flag!!
He doesn't have a problem with his drinking so it's not his problem, it's yours. You need to realize that alcoholism is bigger then all of us and it usually wins. I would let him know that you are not ready for a relationship and want to be friends. Back off and let it go at that.
You do not need to give him an explanation of why. Most addicts know they "might" have an issue with their drinking. Thinking that your abf will give up his one true love, the thing that has always been there for him, for a girlfriend of 2 weeks, is not even comprehendable. I know that you want to help him, but I don't think he is any where near the state of an intervention. Protect yourself and run fast. Hugs
Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 88
If I went back in time what I would expect from an alcoholic partner for progress if he wanted me to stay around during sobriety.
1) the willingness to accommodate MY needs and wants ABOVE HIS when not at his convenience or timing. Sincerity and action above complacency and words being the measure. Example asking him not speak in aggressive or hurtful way or avoiding a place or friend where I am not triggered by memories.
2) what tools of recovery is he using that shows willingness above his comfort. White knuckling, denial and avoidance are not tools for recovery - they are a dry drunk who likely will relapse. Example him attending meetings when he would rather just abstain buying alcohol. Attending therapy instead of keeping busy with a preferred hobby.
3) actual change in behavior - addicts talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Let him SHOW you and not tell you. If he is telling you then it hasnt happened AGAIN - red flag. Example if he makes excuses every time he must attend a meeting or he says he really will stop drinking he just needs time, right moment, last drink blah blah blah.
1) the willingness to accommodate MY needs and wants ABOVE HIS when not at his convenience or timing. Sincerity and action above complacency and words being the measure. Example asking him not speak in aggressive or hurtful way or avoiding a place or friend where I am not triggered by memories.
2) what tools of recovery is he using that shows willingness above his comfort. White knuckling, denial and avoidance are not tools for recovery - they are a dry drunk who likely will relapse. Example him attending meetings when he would rather just abstain buying alcohol. Attending therapy instead of keeping busy with a preferred hobby.
3) actual change in behavior - addicts talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Let him SHOW you and not tell you. If he is telling you then it hasnt happened AGAIN - red flag. Example if he makes excuses every time he must attend a meeting or he says he really will stop drinking he just needs time, right moment, last drink blah blah blah.
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
A few weeks ago I started dating a close friend of mine. We're part of a tight circle of friends, grew closer over months, and then decided to pursue more. It's gone great, he's wonderful, except...
Why wasn’t his drinking a concern before, seeing you knew him and he was a close friend? What has changed other than your status of friendship?
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Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 83
Hardest thing I've had to learn is that I can't cure him, I can't help him and I can't get him sober. Only he can do that.
Once you realise that you also realise there's no hope.
Then you stop trying and things just get worse
Once you realise that you also realise there's no hope.
Then you stop trying and things just get worse
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 8
Everyone, thank you so much for your responses. I just ended things with the boy, and did it in a way that I felt really good about. We had a long conversation about his alcohol consumption, during which he did many of the things y'all predicted. He said that there's a lot of alcoholism in his family and so he always makes sure to stay in control of his drinking and not allow it to become an addiction. He said the important thing to him was the custom of having something in his hand to drink and water works just as well. He said he'd already noticed he was drinking too much in recent weeks and blamed it on stress at work and not being able to exercise as much as usual. He said he was going to cut back and had given up alcohol in the past with no problem. He said I was imagining his drinking was worse than it actually is and I haven't seen all the positive things he does for his own self care. He said he won't try AA because it's too religious and he can't afford alcohol therapy.
I'd never knowingly encountered someone with an alcohol addiction before him. I live in New York and the joke here is that everyone has a drinking problem, but I hadn't ever tried to have a relationship with someone with an actual addiction. It required that I learn a new set of vocabulary and terms. So, I was so grateful for your responses and words of wisdom to help orient me in this world.
When I ended things, he asked if we could try again in the future. I said that this wasn't a negotiation and I couldn't make any promises, but the only way we could potentially try again is if he actively seeks out help and is sober for a while. We'd been walking down the street and he said, "yes, I can't afford a therapist now, but if I cut out alcohol, I'll be able to afford one, see what I've come up with just in the last three blocks?" So maybe I provided the kick in the pants he needed, and he will address his drinking before it grows into as big of a problem as y'all have described in this forum. Regardless of what he chooses to do, I made clear that I believe his problem will only get worse with time unless he chooses to address it.
I'd never knowingly encountered someone with an alcohol addiction before him. I live in New York and the joke here is that everyone has a drinking problem, but I hadn't ever tried to have a relationship with someone with an actual addiction. It required that I learn a new set of vocabulary and terms. So, I was so grateful for your responses and words of wisdom to help orient me in this world.
When I ended things, he asked if we could try again in the future. I said that this wasn't a negotiation and I couldn't make any promises, but the only way we could potentially try again is if he actively seeks out help and is sober for a while. We'd been walking down the street and he said, "yes, I can't afford a therapist now, but if I cut out alcohol, I'll be able to afford one, see what I've come up with just in the last three blocks?" So maybe I provided the kick in the pants he needed, and he will address his drinking before it grows into as big of a problem as y'all have described in this forum. Regardless of what he chooses to do, I made clear that I believe his problem will only get worse with time unless he chooses to address it.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 284
Haven - I am happy to hear your update. H was in my late 20s living in NYC when I met my STBXAH. It is definitely party culture and I enjoyed a fun night out myself but my ex's drinking habits had red flags everywhere. I fell in love, was so happy not to be single, we had a great group of fun friends, and life was amazing....until it wasn't. And it didn't even take that long, a few years and it got worse and worse and worse.
You just did yourself the best favor of your life, and I am so proud of you. My younger self commends you too for having the strength that I didn't have 9 years ago. Now I'm a single mom with the most perfect child I could ask for, fighting every day to protect him from an alcoholic father who refuses to admit he has a problem even after he endangered our child at 8 months old due to reckless drinking.
I'm beyond proud of you! Go enjoy NY as a young single and find someone who is emotionally available and have a wonderful life! If you ever look back at this guy, come back and read my post.
Best of luck!
You just did yourself the best favor of your life, and I am so proud of you. My younger self commends you too for having the strength that I didn't have 9 years ago. Now I'm a single mom with the most perfect child I could ask for, fighting every day to protect him from an alcoholic father who refuses to admit he has a problem even after he endangered our child at 8 months old due to reckless drinking.
I'm beyond proud of you! Go enjoy NY as a young single and find someone who is emotionally available and have a wonderful life! If you ever look back at this guy, come back and read my post.
Best of luck!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 284
Haven - I am happy to hear your update. H was in my late 20s living in NYC when I met my STBXAH. It is definitely party culture and I enjoyed a fun night out myself but my ex's drinking habits had red flags everywhere. I fell in love, was so happy not to be single, we had a great group of fun friends, and life was amazing....until it wasn't. And it didn't even take that long, a few years and it got worse and worse and worse.
You just did yourself the best favor of your life, and I am so proud of you. My younger self commends you too for having the strength that I didn't have 9 years ago. Now I'm a single mom with the most perfect child I could ask for, fighting every day to protect him from an alcoholic father who refuses to admit he has a problem even after he endangered our child at 8 months old due to reckless drinking.
I'm beyond proud of you! Go enjoy NY as a young single and find someone who is emotionally available and have a wonderful life! If you ever look back at this guy, come back and read my post.
Best of luck!
You just did yourself the best favor of your life, and I am so proud of you. My younger self commends you too for having the strength that I didn't have 9 years ago. Now I'm a single mom with the most perfect child I could ask for, fighting every day to protect him from an alcoholic father who refuses to admit he has a problem even after he endangered our child at 8 months old due to reckless drinking.
I'm beyond proud of you! Go enjoy NY as a young single and find someone who is emotionally available and have a wonderful life! If you ever look back at this guy, come back and read my post.
Best of luck!
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