Refiner

Hi, Path... I wrote up a long response then POOF! Anyway, I took it offline then copy/pasted... sorry it's so long!

***Thankfully before the visit I was talking with T about how the big book in AA says "love and tolerance is our code" and it talks about "forgiveness", and "praying for the man who is spiritually sick". This was a thorn in my side. Thankfully T said, "Yeah be that way but not at the expense of yourself!!!" ***
Very smart T!

***I often ask recovered people in AA how to set boundaries, how to deal with abusive family members, etc., and they just sort of say "Be nice", "Love them", "Let it go". I get where they're coming from, as anything that's abusive is not from God so that means it's not "true", but I'm thinking that Al-anon is where I am going to learn to have a stronger sense of self-care. If anyone can provide me with book titles, links, resources, etc. I would be very grateful.***
Yes that is true for the A or just a selfish person. But not necessarily all you need to do with an actual NPD,

***Loving others might heal normal people. But loving the one with NPD just makes them worse, IMHO. Their drug of choice is love, isn't it? They don't love themselves at their core, so they seek love (or DEMAND love) from others***
Yes, THIS! But they also hate themselves so much, the project their self-hatred onto their victims (while still acting indignantly superior to you),

Quote:
It wasn't until I really educated myself about Narcissistic Personality Disorder did I learn the skills to cope then finally go No Contact for my self-care.


***RE: my post = It wasn't until I really educated myself about Narcissistic Personality Disorder did I learn the skills to cope then finally go No Contact for my self-care. And your reply = A decade or two ago, I did try to educate myself about NPD. Unfortunately I was still very anxious and traumatized, so I couldn't really process stuff on a factual level, and apply it. How did you learn the skills to cope? Any resources you could recommend would be greatly appreciated. Fortunately with all the hard work I did in AA, my mind is a lot more clear now, and I think I can put emotions aside to learn stuff on a factual level.***
I read about everything I could and watched YouTube videos and joined a couple of forums to ask many questions to educate myself. Sorry, I don’t recall the names of the forums now, but Google your resources. Sounds like you’re ready now. I was elated when I found out some answers to why she was so cruel and manipulative… it had a name… NPD and there is NOT a cure. You can only learn the coping skills and if need be, finally go No Contact (NC). For me, my biggest coping tool was to offer NOTHING of myself… so, for example, it could go something like this: NPD asks “so what are you up to tonight?”… seems innocent enough, right? Ahhhhh but WE know better! So every response is a generic non-answer as to offer nothing they can hook their talons in. So, my non-answer would be something like “nothing planned, gotta go!” and shut it down immediately. The victim gives them their “supply”. By not offering a “supply” to the NPD monster after a while gets boring for them. And usually they’ll just move on to their next victim. I realize this might be hard for you as you have two going at you and I’m sure there’s a ton of triangulation going on, yikes! My sister eventually got bored with me especially after Mom died and she no longer could hurt and trash my Mom to get back at me not giving her supply. She eventually even dropped me from her Facebook since I became so boring to her (I would still peak into her train wreck of a life from time to time like rubbernecking a car accident) and that’s when I finally went 100% NC and blocked her from all social media, out of my phone, etc.

*** I am curious what "offer nothing of myself to her" looks like. My mother and sister were very sneaky with getting information that they want to get. They would come at it sideways and hook me in.***
I explained that above but just wanted to comment… OMG I know the sneakiness VERY well! Sneaky and manipulative and they feel entitled like they did no wrong.

***RE: my “professional courtesy” interaction… and you stating “This is an excellent tool. I learned thisyears ago, now that I think about it. Their NPD response was to completely and utterly not care about me to the point that they stopped asking basic of questions. They were angry I wasn't telling them what they wanted to know, so that was their way of punishing me for making them angry. F*cked up, no?***
OMG totally F’d up! This is the “supply” they no longer got to feed the beast and my poor Mom was used as the punching bag to punish ME even while dying of cancer 

*** If you stop being her supply, did she walk away and find someone else?***
Yes! No supply = boring game and she moved onto other non-educated (on NPD) and willing victims.

*** I am very eager to hear what resources you used to learn this all.***
I really just Googled and read read read and learned learned learned all I could. There are tons of resources out their (and forums I can’t remember their names, sorry!). When I learned so much, I made the mistake of trying to point out to her her wrongdoings and what disorder she had to validate myself. BIG. MISTAKE. Don’t even try. The best thing you can do for yourself is to remove yourself from their life and do not provide “supply” (a reaction) to the raging and trashing and bitterness. It becomes boring to them after a while (took a couple of years for my NPD sister).

*** Who were her next victims? Sometimes I wonder when I went NC, who they turned to for their fix.***
Her doormat husband and his family, for one. And when she was in ICU for her alcoholism on life-support, I learned some of her “friends” (support friends through associations having to do with Down syndrome since her son has Ds) suffered her wrath getting trashed by her.

*** My sister got thrown out of a T's office. Boy I wish I was a fly on that wall... They are completely incapable of looking within.***
Wow, she must be off-the-charts with her NPD… you are 100% correct they are completely incapable of looking within or having empathy in any capacity (they will fake it though to manipulate certain situations).

***RE my post = “Alcoholism comes easy to them because they are already very selfish, self-centered people.” And your reply = “Ouch! lol sorry I'm Al-anon/AA here. ;-) Seriously, though, the most helpful thing about my particular AA step program was that I was able to see in my own handwriting and with my own eyes, how I was selfish and self-centered, how I acted out, and how I was running on fear.”***
Oh gosh, I meant no harm here… you are the farthest thing from NPD then! What I meant to say is – and this is IMO only and others can disagree – is that A’s without NPD can reflect inward and get better if they truly want to (like YOU! ) NPDs that are also A’s (my sister) will never lose that selfish, self-centered trait.

***I was amazed, had no idea, was eternally grateful to my HP for opening up my eyes and waking me up, and getting me out of victim mode. I was able to look within. And I had a solution to what I saw. But I have a feeling those who quit AA step work because they cannot bear to look within, are the ones who are true NPD ("constitutionally incapable").***
I totally agree with you! That’s why I know she’s drinking again (and have heard through the grapevine she is)

*** My mother and sister LOVE to see me puddle and become their doormat. This was their drug. They are evil, sick people. Assertiveness doesn't help, or trying to stand up for yourself doesn't help, because that threatens them and you get a "How-dare-you-try-to-assert-yourself,-I'll-just-stomp-on-you-even-harder!!" sort of response.***
And there you go… it’s because you gave them a response (AKA “supply).

Pathwaytofree

Thank you, LeeJane--that is very thoughtful.

Right? It's so strange when what you thought was normal and happening in everyone's house, really wasn't. I thought that's what it meant to "be good"--being quiet and listening, trying to find the right words to make them feel better. It took me a long time, too, to learn that normal people don't want to listen to each other's rants.

This is fantastic. I am learning this, too. I recently joined a new church and I'm trying to be careful to not saying yes to everything because I can sense they then expect it. Pause and think before reacting and replying is something that I am also practicing. Some days are better than others. I'm also not giving the reactions or responses that I think the other person wants to be happy, but I am allowing myself to be true to myself. It is so different than the way I used to be. But it thankfully brings me peace.

Yes they absolutely are!!!

I started doing that years ago and I agree it helped greatly. By focusing on a simple routine and 3 meals a day plus normal bedtime, I noticed a difference in my brain functioning so to speak. The simpler I can keep my life, the better. All that family drama wore me down. It's as if my brain is tired.

That is great you were able to set boundaries. It's one thing to help a person who appreciates your help, but it's another whole story when that person is so hard to deal with that they drain the life energy out of you. Maybe you can send him/her a website or two that gives good detailed decluttering examples--questions to ask, etc. Or, there are companies you can hire who declutter for you if you're downsizing.

This is so sad...... yet true. I never thought of it that way before. They are certainly all stuck in their own dramas and need to share it with anyone who will listen. All the rants from the A's in my family were just like that. I don't think they mean it, though. They're in pain. They have no coping skills for how to deal with or get rid of that pain. That's why they drink it down, stuff it down with food, etc. etc. And I don't think they're aware of how they're projecting their pain outward onto others. But that doesn't mean we have to stand for more than we can humanly handle.

Sometimes I think they're so full of self-hate, that it makes them angry, but they project that outward, too. I don't think they're able to take a step back and see how they're words and actions affect others. My sister and mother are different so I won't go there. But my dad--the NPD A type--I truly don't think he means how he acts, but I could be wrong. I think he's just so much in his head that this is how he is. Then again, by saying all of that, it makes me more likely to listen to the long rants..... I swear I need naps after those. I practically become incapable of thinking or speaking. They're so very draining.

That all being said--we still have to do what's best for our self-care and self-preservation within reason.

Pathwaytofree

Good point. But it just feels "weak" when one tries to verbally compete, and I don't say anything in response. To me that shows weakness that I'm not sticking up for myself. Then again, I could do like something BB posted "Oh, [sister's name], you're so funny" or something like that, as a way of detachment.

This is very helpful. In the past I would get frustrated, anxious, defensive, etc., and she'd eat that up. It's exactly how she wanted me to respond.

Can you give an example of a healthy demeanor and bearing that would send the message that I'm not playing this game anymore? Thank you.

When I was with her, if I didn't respond, she'd just try again in a few minutes with something new. My lack of response seemed to make her feel like she had won because I "agreed" in silence.

Pathwaytofree

"Mental gymnastics"--I LOVE that! It's so true.

Good analogy.

LOL! Truth!!

FallenAngelina

This is competitive thinking and this is how the competition keeps going. You're participating.

Changing this is a great thing to work on in the course of 12 step work at Al-Anon. I can't give you scripts to say or suggest behavior because it's not about what you say or do, it all emanates from how you feel and from what is happening inside you. This is what I meant when I said "that message isn't sent with angry or defensive words, it's sent with your genuine change of perspective." You can't have a genuine change in perspective or genuinely lose interest in competing with your sister by doing what I tell you to do. You have to feel it. You have to come to care about how you feel inside more than you care about how your sister perceives you - and for many of us, this change takes something as intense, consistent and lengthy as a 12 step program. You're re-training yourself from how you were trained to engage with your family and that re-training takes a lot of education, determination, commitment, honest self-reflection and practice. AKA: a 12 step program.

Pathwaytofree

That's okay! Thanks for the reply!

T was trying to explain this, but he wasn't being clear and direct so I didn't understand. But what you wrote makes complete sense now. I always knew it wasn't just an A or selfishness I was dealing with, but personality disorders on top of that. No one in AA seemed to get that, and it was quite frustrating. They'd sort of blame me for my lack of forgiveness. Thank goodness T got it.

You have no idea how much it helps that I am not alone here. As a (recovered) A myself, I don't have NPD, although I had selfish/self-centered tendencies due to not having my needs met as a child during my formative years, etc., if that makes sense? But I was able to do the work to see it, change, and grow.

I think my past T (retired now) explained that in true NPD or BPD with or without alcoholism, it's a different story. It's so weird being around people who you know hate themselves at their core, but they act extremely superior and put you down at every chance they get. It's warped.

My brother in law seems NPD, and clueless about it, but he's not alcoholic from what I can tell. Although my gut tells me that he has another addiction. On the one hand, I feel sorry for them, but on the other hand, I don't want to stand for their abuse due to their self hate projection. There's a difference between narcissism, narcissistic traits, and narcissistic personality disorder and I think only the first two types can recover but I could be wrong. I'm far from an expert here, just guessing.

You say that they project their hate onto their victims. Does anyone know how they choose their victims? Because I've seen them act differently around others.

***RE: my post = It wasn't until I really educated myself about Narcissistic Personality Disorder did I learn the skills to cope then finally go No Contact for my self-care.

I'm not sure why, but my husband and retired T say that I seem to get worse when I read these sorts of things and are on the NPD forums. However if I'm able to read stuff factually, instead of focusing on other people's pain or on my own pain, then I am okay. It does help to understand the "why" but it's still hard to not take it personally.

What happens when a person with full-on NPD goes to AA to try to recover? Not that my family members would. They believe just not drinking is enough.

This is a fantastic coping skill. I am going to try this. I cannot stand how they manipulate themselves into my life. And if my mother doesn't get an answer from me, she gets my sibling to do her dirty work. It is so freaking annoying. I can't say too much for privacy's sake (never know who is reading this stuff) but I have way too many examples. However, this recent time I called her out on it, in a funny sort of I-got-your-number-girlfriend sort of way. I know they're still gonna try, but I will just go back to this tool or the tool of detachment/deflection.

I love the idea of the non-answer. Unfortunately they've figured out which subjects I WILL talk about, and use those subjects as a way in (man, they are RUTHLESS!) I need to be on my toes more.

I'm just not sure the will get "bored". They'll keep trying. I have to keep sharpening my tools. I don't know who other victims would be, unless grandchildren or nieces and nephews are being brought into their storm. I'm not sure. I've been their main victim.

Oh yes I am very familiar with "triangulation" and that DEFINITELY goes on a lot.

I just realized my sister bad-mouthed my mother to me when it was just the two of us. She did it to get an "in", as if to elbow me and say "I'm on your side now, kid!" I fell for it at first, and then the very next second realized what she was doing, and stopped giving her any ammo. Our mom's still alive. I wonder how my sister will be after she passes away. My gut is that she's going to step into mom's roll and want even more information out of me. I won't put up with that.

She's not on facebook anymore, because I think she didn't get enough attention and likes, lol. But she has other family members "friend" me who do nothing to keep in touch with me and I just have a sense that they're there to tell her stuff about my life. I know it sounds paranoid, but to people who have NPDs in their lives, they get it is not. This is what they do.

They make up some sort of sob story about how much they love us, want to know if we're doing okay, want to know what we're up to, etc., and then the family members fall for it. So I don't post anything too personal on Facebook. Did she use Facebook to play manipulative games with you? My sister did. She would misinterpret stuff all the time, and use it to start drama, and get other family members to "unfriend" me. Facebook is not a good tool to have with a person with NPD.

A friend from my childhood neighborhood also keeps in touch with my sister, and sometimes I wonder if it was a mistake to Facebook friend her. I could easily see my sister manipulating her into telling her stuff that's on my page.

Yes! Exactly! Like a snake! And you're right, they DO feel entitled to getting any little piece of information that they want. Or they hide behind a veil of "I care about my sister, and miss her, and want to know what's going on in her life and if she's ok" (yeah right).
It's all so messed up. I'm sorry your mother still was using her NPD ways to punish you while she was dying.

Who became her victims??? Was there ever a time that you went a few years not giving her a supply, and then she slowly crept back in and tried to get it back? Act all loving to hook you and make you think she changed but then go right back to old tactics or test your boundaries to see how much you really changed or didn't change? That's the way I feel my sister is behaving.

Oh yes I did that too in the beginning. I even told her the name of the personality disorders I thought my mother had. I told her I was in therapy because of how our mother treated me. HUGE MISTAKE!!! They take that info and turn it back around to make me the sick one.

I think the key is to not provide a reaction. I had no idea that was their "supply". I think even the times I acted "uncomfortable" but kept quiet was enough of a supply for them. I do hope they get bored soon!!!

Unfortunately I know my father is my mother's victim. Has been since we all moved out of the house. And I think she tried to use her grandchildren, too, but I'm not sure they fall for it anymore.

I wonder if medical professionals are told how awful we are, etc., just to stir up some more drama. I could definitely see some of my mother's "friends" and my sister's "friends" giving them supply. I wonder if neighbors or co-workers become victims, too.
Well there's more to the story but I can't write too much here without giving away some personal information (need to be careful because we never know what depths those with NPD will stoop to!!!) She told me their conversation, and so I knew immediately that this therapist knew right away what she was dealing with and wanted no part of it. I know how my sister talks.

I have seen her fake empathy and that's a really tricky one because it seems like she's being human and I start to believe it, but then her true colors come out. Mom gave up faking empathy a long time ago. That's what my husband "likes" about my mother, LOL. She's so beyond help that I think she doesn't even believe her own attempts at faking empathy. I almost fell for it when I saw her last, because she was somehow able to use an empathetic tone of voice that was "curious and caring". I started to answer and then pulled back; caught it at the last second! I think someone taught her to do that and she was practicing.

Oh that's okay, lol. The "ouch" was my little ego cropping back up, I meant it completely in jest. It's all good. :-) I know I had narcissistic traits but I am fortunate that traits can be cured. I agree, that A's without NPD CAN reflect inward and get better. I completely see how with someone like my mother, it would be utterly impossible for her to do that. I've sometimes tried to show her a different perspective on things, and it's like I'm talking a foreign language. My sister I think is very similar to my mother. There's zero self awareness or if there is, she likes how she is and sees nothing wrong with how she treats people. It's still hard at times to look within and see how I treated people when I was projecting out my pain, but I am thankful that the healthy part of me was able to grow stronger through my step work. I really had no idea how I was treating people. But I think my mother and sister have full on knowledge and relish in it, if that makes sense. My husband says that sometimes now I have too much self-awareness and I go too much to the other extreme. I need to take the microscope off of myself and see that I'm doing fine, and just relax.

It's just too painful for them.... I have compassion for that, but it doesn't mean I will stand for abuse. My sister would turn into a puddle if she looked within and really saw how she treats people. My mother would melt like the wicked witch of the west from The Wizard of Oz. My mother would never recover from self-introspection. My sister--it'd take her a very long time to do the work and recover from it. I think, too, though, that she likes who she is when she bullies and abuses so why should she change?

Thank you so much for explaining this!!! I am going to print out this thread and highlight all of the great tools. I love the non-response response!

Now I understand why they went NUTS when I said something at dinner when they asked me a question, and I said something like, "Sorry, I'm not going to answer that question". They FREAKED. Couldn't deal. I'll know now to give a non-response response instead of something that clear and direct.

Thank you!!

Pathwaytofree

I just wanted to say a big THANK YOU to everyone who has taken the time to read my posts on this thread, and help me through my anger/frustration/confusion. It really means a lot to hear from others what they do to help themselves in similar situations.

It's not only validating, helps me to understand their behavior more, but it makes me feel like less of a victim to have solution-based-tools in my back pocket going forward.