Friends as Enablers
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Friends as Enablers
I've learned a lot about my role as an enabler in my relationship with AXGF and how a lot of the things I've done have allowed it to continue even easier. Taking her back time and time again. Not setting boundaries. Taking care of so much of life's chores and financial aspects. Getting roadblocks out of the way that leave more time for drinking.
But what about the friends? These people that have come (and gone) in my AXGF's life? Over the years, her long term friends have all faded into the background. They quit drugs or drinking. They started families. They got careers and moved on. None of them are but distant acquaintances of hers now. They don't talk. They don't have dinner. They don't get together and catch up. They're gone. Even recent friends, as soon as a year ago -- The ones who have realized it's time to grow up. They're out of her life.
Then there's her newest friend, the one she's with all the time, talked about all the time...does almost every activity outside of work with her (all involve drinking). This girl doesn't drink heavily, but she is her drinking buddy, and she, essentially, helps to enabke EXGF's drinking. She doesn't object. She hangs out with her all night, everything's great my EXGF claims -- No fights, no problems with her drinking (I'm the only one)...everyone LOVES her!
But how can this so-called friend, in the light of all that she has witnessed happening, have not had a heart-to-heart with EXGF if she even cares at all about her? Their antics over recent months are what boiled us into breaking up. When she saw the strain it was putting on her good friend's 10 year relationship, why did she let it happen? Why would she not try and talk some sense into her? Just watch as her good friend drinks and drinks and her relationship crumbles?
The only thing that I maybe can see is that this girl needed a friend, too. She has nothing but time for my EXGF. And I mean, any time she wants to get a meal, get a drink, hang out, sleep over -- The red carpet is rolled out. This girl HAD no other friends. She's got my EXGF now and that's it. But will she be there for the duration? How can these "friend" enablers sit back and watch while their companions lives crumble and do nothing to try and help them?
I know what you're thinking -- This girl's got a live-in fiance who just doesn't care what she does, including all the time she's been spending feeding my EXGF's need for companionship, for a drinking buddy, for a friend to talk to, for a place to drunkenly hole up for the night. So, it's not that kind of an affair. But still, another person in her life all the same, yes indeed.
I noticed this gift she received from one of these friends laying out on her desk today -- a small paperweight that says "friendship - a real friend is a warm, understanding, and true someone you trust and who will let you be you."
Strong words, isn't it? That's all she wants to be. She wants to be a heavy drinker and a partier. A person who can down two bottles of wine, get sick, lay in bed sick all the next day and then repeat the cycle again. Because it was worth it because last night was "SO MUCH FUN." But isn't that really what a lot of this boils down to? At least, for people like me? My girlfriend is an adult who just wants to do whatever she wants. She wants people around here to let her be her. When I get in the way of the drinking, I am violating the prime directive of her friendship.
That's all our A's want. Just let them, be them.
But what about the friends? These people that have come (and gone) in my AXGF's life? Over the years, her long term friends have all faded into the background. They quit drugs or drinking. They started families. They got careers and moved on. None of them are but distant acquaintances of hers now. They don't talk. They don't have dinner. They don't get together and catch up. They're gone. Even recent friends, as soon as a year ago -- The ones who have realized it's time to grow up. They're out of her life.
Then there's her newest friend, the one she's with all the time, talked about all the time...does almost every activity outside of work with her (all involve drinking). This girl doesn't drink heavily, but she is her drinking buddy, and she, essentially, helps to enabke EXGF's drinking. She doesn't object. She hangs out with her all night, everything's great my EXGF claims -- No fights, no problems with her drinking (I'm the only one)...everyone LOVES her!
But how can this so-called friend, in the light of all that she has witnessed happening, have not had a heart-to-heart with EXGF if she even cares at all about her? Their antics over recent months are what boiled us into breaking up. When she saw the strain it was putting on her good friend's 10 year relationship, why did she let it happen? Why would she not try and talk some sense into her? Just watch as her good friend drinks and drinks and her relationship crumbles?
The only thing that I maybe can see is that this girl needed a friend, too. She has nothing but time for my EXGF. And I mean, any time she wants to get a meal, get a drink, hang out, sleep over -- The red carpet is rolled out. This girl HAD no other friends. She's got my EXGF now and that's it. But will she be there for the duration? How can these "friend" enablers sit back and watch while their companions lives crumble and do nothing to try and help them?
I know what you're thinking -- This girl's got a live-in fiance who just doesn't care what she does, including all the time she's been spending feeding my EXGF's need for companionship, for a drinking buddy, for a friend to talk to, for a place to drunkenly hole up for the night. So, it's not that kind of an affair. But still, another person in her life all the same, yes indeed.
I noticed this gift she received from one of these friends laying out on her desk today -- a small paperweight that says "friendship - a real friend is a warm, understanding, and true someone you trust and who will let you be you."
Strong words, isn't it? That's all she wants to be. She wants to be a heavy drinker and a partier. A person who can down two bottles of wine, get sick, lay in bed sick all the next day and then repeat the cycle again. Because it was worth it because last night was "SO MUCH FUN." But isn't that really what a lot of this boils down to? At least, for people like me? My girlfriend is an adult who just wants to do whatever she wants. She wants people around here to let her be her. When I get in the way of the drinking, I am violating the prime directive of her friendship.
That's all our A's want. Just let them, be them.
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I know where you're coming from because I was definitely an enabler to my AEXBF. When we met he was able to control his drinking but as time went on I stupidly took on that role. When he did or said things in a drunken state I overlooked it because after all he was drunk. If I did bring it up I easily dropped it after hearing his weak excuse that it was the devil, etc.... that made him do it. If I did put him out I would immediately feel bad and call him to apologize and ask him to come home. When he would drink to much I would hide his wallet and keys to keep him from getting more and driving drunk. Sometimes I would give in and give him a couple of dollars to send someone else to the store to get more. So I definitely played a huge role.
But then there's an older guy who's the neighborhood drunk that he likes to hang with. He drinks for morning, noon and night. My ex will give them beer and cigarettes and they will do the same for him. Even when they know he's had to much to drink they will offer it. If he tells them that I wouldn't let him get more beer they would tell him that I was just controlling and he should do what he wants and tell him to come get beer. Now this is all they will offer. They won't offer food, shelter, water or any necessities. When I would put him out they wouldn't give him a place to crash. All they will give is beer. I hear from other neighbors how they talk about him and try and downplay his educational and professional accomplishments but you can't tell him anything. He had actually cut a lot of contact with them but since he has been manic and binge drinking he has started hanging with them again.
But then there's an older guy who's the neighborhood drunk that he likes to hang with. He drinks for morning, noon and night. My ex will give them beer and cigarettes and they will do the same for him. Even when they know he's had to much to drink they will offer it. If he tells them that I wouldn't let him get more beer they would tell him that I was just controlling and he should do what he wants and tell him to come get beer. Now this is all they will offer. They won't offer food, shelter, water or any necessities. When I would put him out they wouldn't give him a place to crash. All they will give is beer. I hear from other neighbors how they talk about him and try and downplay his educational and professional accomplishments but you can't tell him anything. He had actually cut a lot of contact with them but since he has been manic and binge drinking he has started hanging with them again.
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OMG Wells...... BINGO!!!! That is word for word what my exAB said... Let me be me... He said I will usually make the right choice but let me be me... and honestly up until our horrific breakup he made a lot of good choices...he was home typically when he said he would be... he helped when he said he would help etc. However as things with Alcoholics get more serious and Life comes into play and responsibilities happen than "we" tend to become the bummer reminding them that an adult life isn't always just "Doing what you want to do". There will always be people Wells that will enable friends to go in a bad direction. They aren't real friends though... From my experience usually Active Alcoholics don't have many real friends... When I saw my exAB on 4th of July he said it felt good to be around someone who he knew loved him... He was with TONS of people partying all weekend... they aren't real friends. He has told his "good timing buddies" that he is an alcoholic and wants to quit and they still hand him a drink and do coke around him... These aren't real friends .... Sending you hugs and support
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Wells,
I couldn't relate more to your post. My XABF fought me tooth and nail on who his 'real' friends were. They weren't his friends of 10, 25, 30 years. They were the local bartenders. The ones who knew him well and would give him free beers and talk to him about his crappy gf and tell him I was the problem. They were woman he dated for a second in btw our breakups, who were alcoholics too or had hadlcoholic spouses. They were all enablers, who understood him, who drank with him, and were his best friends. I went through with our breakup Bc I gave him an ultimatum, the enabler woman he went out on 5 dates with or a relationship with me for 8 years. He wanted a compromise Bc he couldn't risk losing her all together, platonic as it was. He needed her. This woman's husband was an alcoholic before he killed himself with a gun. Why on earth would she want to flock to another alcoholic? And why would she want to drink with him knowing he's ill with liver problems? I've tried so hard to find answers and I can't.
I know how disturbing it is and how you must feel. Anger, sadness, resentment. The roller coaster of emotions. I wish I had advice but I only have understanding.
Hugs.
I couldn't relate more to your post. My XABF fought me tooth and nail on who his 'real' friends were. They weren't his friends of 10, 25, 30 years. They were the local bartenders. The ones who knew him well and would give him free beers and talk to him about his crappy gf and tell him I was the problem. They were woman he dated for a second in btw our breakups, who were alcoholics too or had hadlcoholic spouses. They were all enablers, who understood him, who drank with him, and were his best friends. I went through with our breakup Bc I gave him an ultimatum, the enabler woman he went out on 5 dates with or a relationship with me for 8 years. He wanted a compromise Bc he couldn't risk losing her all together, platonic as it was. He needed her. This woman's husband was an alcoholic before he killed himself with a gun. Why on earth would she want to flock to another alcoholic? And why would she want to drink with him knowing he's ill with liver problems? I've tried so hard to find answers and I can't.
I know how disturbing it is and how you must feel. Anger, sadness, resentment. The roller coaster of emotions. I wish I had advice but I only have understanding.
Hugs.
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You know what, though? She DOES have the "right to be her." I don't think it's our job--or the job of any friend--to change her or to dump her because drinking isn't good for her.
Being a friend isn't enabling in and of itself. You left because it was affecting YOUR life. A very good reason, indeed. If you left her only to "show her" your disapproval, then that's just another form of control.
Drunks need friends, too. It's possible to be a friend without enabling. Being someone's buddy--even being a drinking buddy--isn't exactly enabling. Unless, of course, you wouldn't be drinking other than to make her feel comfortable and OK with herself. But it sounds like this friend might have a few drinking issues, herself. Alcoholics tend to surround themselves with people who won't bug them about their drinking or make them feel bad about it. The fact that someone doesn't do those things doesn't, I think, make that person an enabler.
Being a friend isn't enabling in and of itself. You left because it was affecting YOUR life. A very good reason, indeed. If you left her only to "show her" your disapproval, then that's just another form of control.
Drunks need friends, too. It's possible to be a friend without enabling. Being someone's buddy--even being a drinking buddy--isn't exactly enabling. Unless, of course, you wouldn't be drinking other than to make her feel comfortable and OK with herself. But it sounds like this friend might have a few drinking issues, herself. Alcoholics tend to surround themselves with people who won't bug them about their drinking or make them feel bad about it. The fact that someone doesn't do those things doesn't, I think, make that person an enabler.
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Originally Posted by LexieCat 
You know what, though? She DOES have the "right to be her." I don't think it's our job--or the job of any friend--to change her or to dump her because drinking isn't good for her.
Being a friend isn't enabling in and of itself. You left because it was affecting YOUR life. A very good reason, indeed. If you left her only to "show her" your disapproval, then that's just another form of control.
Drunks need friends, too. It's possible to be a friend without enabling. Being someone's buddy--even being a drinking buddy--isn't exactly enabling. Unless, of course, you wouldn't be drinking other than to make her feel comfortable and OK with herself. But it sounds like this friend might have a few drinking issues, herself. Alcoholics tend to surround themselves with people who won't bug them about their drinking or make them feel bad about it. The fact that someone doesn't do those things doesn't, I think, make that person an enabler.
Being a friend isn't enabling in and of itself. You left because it was affecting YOUR life. A very good reason, indeed. If you left her only to "show her" your disapproval, then that's just another form of control.
Drunks need friends, too. It's possible to be a friend without enabling. Being someone's buddy--even being a drinking buddy--isn't exactly enabling. Unless, of course, you wouldn't be drinking other than to make her feel comfortable and OK with herself. But it sounds like this friend might have a few drinking issues, herself. Alcoholics tend to surround themselves with people who won't bug them about their drinking or make them feel bad about it. The fact that someone doesn't do those things doesn't, I think, make that person an enabler.
She is an adult and has the right to both drink and to choose who she spends time with. Her friends/drinking-buddies are also adults who get to choose. These relationships are no one else's business.
However it is also acceptable that some of us don't want to spend time with folks who choose to drink heavily.
I've heard of many sober alcoholics who had to get an entire new set of friends when they decided to quit drinking.
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LexieCat,
Great post. Of course any of us would be foolish to think that by leaving someone we can magically change them into something they are not now and have no desire to be (possibly ever). If we couldn't get them to change for us here, why would we be able to effect change when they are somewhere else?
I guess my base point was -- I can see why an addict would befriend another addict. Partners in crime, so to speak.
But what about the friends who don't have addiction? And should know better? Or, dare I say, see their friend's life crumbling due to the bottle and no courage to stand up and say something? "Hey, AXGF - I know we are great friends and we hang out all the time, every week and drink and enjoy ourselves, but is all of this worth losing a guy who has loved you for 10 years, a stable home, income, a chance at an established life? Instead you want to go back to struggling to make rent in a crummy apartment, being a one-woman show, throwing it all away -- so we can go out drinking all night every weekend?"
I know the AXGF isn't supposed to see that -- But assuming the friend isn't an addict, shouldn't she?
From what I understand, and the limited interactions I have had with her friend (because I chose a long time ago to overall limit my interactions with AXGF when she was going to drink) - The friend is a normal social drinker. So, she'll sit with AXGF at the bar or whatever and happily sip her cocktail while AXGF orders 3 in a row before she finishes her one.
I have no idea if this, the latest in the line of friends, will be her great lifelong friend, the one you fly cross country to see when you're old and catch up, or just another flash in the pan. Look at me -- I stuck around for 10 years. But I did love her very much and still do. I have seen the person she is and can be when she's away from the booze.
Adrian, Kaya, Elise, thanks for your thoughts and I wish I had answers for all of us.
Great post. Of course any of us would be foolish to think that by leaving someone we can magically change them into something they are not now and have no desire to be (possibly ever). If we couldn't get them to change for us here, why would we be able to effect change when they are somewhere else?
I guess my base point was -- I can see why an addict would befriend another addict. Partners in crime, so to speak.
But what about the friends who don't have addiction? And should know better? Or, dare I say, see their friend's life crumbling due to the bottle and no courage to stand up and say something? "Hey, AXGF - I know we are great friends and we hang out all the time, every week and drink and enjoy ourselves, but is all of this worth losing a guy who has loved you for 10 years, a stable home, income, a chance at an established life? Instead you want to go back to struggling to make rent in a crummy apartment, being a one-woman show, throwing it all away -- so we can go out drinking all night every weekend?"
I know the AXGF isn't supposed to see that -- But assuming the friend isn't an addict, shouldn't she?
From what I understand, and the limited interactions I have had with her friend (because I chose a long time ago to overall limit my interactions with AXGF when she was going to drink) - The friend is a normal social drinker. So, she'll sit with AXGF at the bar or whatever and happily sip her cocktail while AXGF orders 3 in a row before she finishes her one.
I have no idea if this, the latest in the line of friends, will be her great lifelong friend, the one you fly cross country to see when you're old and catch up, or just another flash in the pan. Look at me -- I stuck around for 10 years. But I did love her very much and still do. I have seen the person she is and can be when she's away from the booze.
Adrian, Kaya, Elise, thanks for your thoughts and I wish I had answers for all of us.
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Maybe the friend thinks she is helping just by being with her, even while knowing there is a problem. Maybe your AXGF was telling lies about you and that she 'had to' drink to tolerate the relationship.
Maybe the friend did tell the AXGF that there was an issue, and rather than lose a friendship, just put up with it when the AXGF pushed back.
Lots of scenarios at work here. You'll probably never know.
Maybe the friend did tell the AXGF that there was an issue, and rather than lose a friendship, just put up with it when the AXGF pushed back.
Lots of scenarios at work here. You'll probably never know.
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I know what you're thinking : Nope never for a second thought "that". They are drinking pals who enjoy each other and don't harp on the other about their drinking, rather, support it. Its that simple.
But what about the friends who don't have addiction? And should know better? Or, dare I say, see their friend's life crumbling due to the bottle and no courage to stand up and say something? "Hey, AXGF - I know we are great friends and we hang out all the time, every week and drink and enjoy ourselves, but is all of this worth losing a guy who has loved you for 10 years, a stable home, income, a chance at an established life? Instead you want to go back to struggling to make rent in a crummy apartment, being a one-woman show, throwing it all away -- so we can go out drinking all night every weekend?" You seem to be heading down the path of blame here. First of all you don't know if they ever said anything to her she certainly wouldn't share it with you if they did, that I can tell you. Secondly, YOU couldn't get her to stop drinking - how in the world would you expect them to say anything to her that would have an effect? And yes, her preference was to go back to renting a crummy apartment and struggling to make rent so she can drink. You understand that if you didn't have an issue with her drinking she would still be there right? The older I get the more I stay out of people's problems. Its not that I don't care, and certainly I am up for lending an ear at any time. But as far as getting in the middle of a love triangle, or trying to correct what is someone's bad habits or behaviors NOPE. I just move along. Spent too many years trying to fix people. Others before me were smarter, and didn't have my codependent behaviors. That other friends, long time friends have moved on with no contact speaks volumes. Time for you to, she's stifled your own growth whether you see it or not.
Last of all, as far as the new friend is concerned YOU have no clue what your Ex has been saying about YOU to her. Do you think she is telling her how great you are? How fantastic your lives are? How lucky she is? I doubt it. Alcoholics blame everyone else for their problems its one of the ways they get a "pass" on their own behavior. So probably best not to judge this girl in her failure as you perceive it. There is no telling what your EX has said to cover her own issues.
But what about the friends who don't have addiction? And should know better? Or, dare I say, see their friend's life crumbling due to the bottle and no courage to stand up and say something? "Hey, AXGF - I know we are great friends and we hang out all the time, every week and drink and enjoy ourselves, but is all of this worth losing a guy who has loved you for 10 years, a stable home, income, a chance at an established life? Instead you want to go back to struggling to make rent in a crummy apartment, being a one-woman show, throwing it all away -- so we can go out drinking all night every weekend?" You seem to be heading down the path of blame here. First of all you don't know if they ever said anything to her she certainly wouldn't share it with you if they did, that I can tell you. Secondly, YOU couldn't get her to stop drinking - how in the world would you expect them to say anything to her that would have an effect? And yes, her preference was to go back to renting a crummy apartment and struggling to make rent so she can drink. You understand that if you didn't have an issue with her drinking she would still be there right? The older I get the more I stay out of people's problems. Its not that I don't care, and certainly I am up for lending an ear at any time. But as far as getting in the middle of a love triangle, or trying to correct what is someone's bad habits or behaviors NOPE. I just move along. Spent too many years trying to fix people. Others before me were smarter, and didn't have my codependent behaviors. That other friends, long time friends have moved on with no contact speaks volumes. Time for you to, she's stifled your own growth whether you see it or not.
Last of all, as far as the new friend is concerned YOU have no clue what your Ex has been saying about YOU to her. Do you think she is telling her how great you are? How fantastic your lives are? How lucky she is? I doubt it. Alcoholics blame everyone else for their problems its one of the ways they get a "pass" on their own behavior. So probably best not to judge this girl in her failure as you perceive it. There is no telling what your EX has said to cover her own issues.
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I think it would be great if you would focus some of your thoughtful
introspection on you and your life. Codie habits die hard and self
awareness is key to your happiness. Too much time focused on
inconsequential details of a minor player in your life (ex's friend)is really not where your mind needs to be. Building a new life for yourself takes time and treating yourself with kindness and compassion is crucial.
http://self-compassion.org/the-three...-compassion-2/
introspection on you and your life. Codie habits die hard and self
awareness is key to your happiness. Too much time focused on
inconsequential details of a minor player in your life (ex's friend)is really not where your mind needs to be. Building a new life for yourself takes time and treating yourself with kindness and compassion is crucial.
http://self-compassion.org/the-three...-compassion-2/
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Originally Posted by Wells
But what about the friends who don't have addiction? And should know better? Or, dare I say, see their friend's life crumbling due to the bottle and no courage to stand up and say something?
I'm not saying you're the first one to feel this way - ha, far from it. Just pointing out that this is the same kind of blameshifting that we find upsetting from addicts. As a rule of thumb I've learned to listen a little more intently when I hear myself "should'ing" all over myself. It almost always points to a giant hole in my thought process.
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Wells, I am appreciating this thread. It has made me think.
I actually have a good friend who is alcoholic. We were friends in grad school. We live several states apart now. She actually got a DUI with a company vehicle went to jail and miraculously kept her job. I have never talked to her about her alcoholism and have wondered if I should. However, she is smart, well read, and educated.
Talking to her about it wouldn't make any difference. She probably knows lots about alcoholism. I can't fix her. I might not be alcoholic but this doesn't mean I am any healthier than she is. I still have codependent tendencies, and also have chronic depression. People aren't alcoholic because of a lack of knowledge (Well maybe there are folks like this but certainly not my freind.)
I've been a teacher and have learned that telling isn't teaching. Even with something as devoid of emotion and human psychology as linear equations the concept needs to be experienced and worked by the student. The teacher standing up front and talking doesn't get the concept across effectively.
We try here not to tell people what to do (and fail quite a bit in this aim
). It is human to want to give advice and fix others; however people have to figure things out on their own. I've always found support more powerful than advice in my life. I can count on one hand advice that has actually been helpful. Monosyllabic sounds of support are much more helpful and more rare.
Out of curiosity, what advice have any of you received that has been helpful?
I actually have a good friend who is alcoholic. We were friends in grad school. We live several states apart now. She actually got a DUI with a company vehicle went to jail and miraculously kept her job. I have never talked to her about her alcoholism and have wondered if I should. However, she is smart, well read, and educated.
Talking to her about it wouldn't make any difference. She probably knows lots about alcoholism. I can't fix her. I might not be alcoholic but this doesn't mean I am any healthier than she is. I still have codependent tendencies, and also have chronic depression. People aren't alcoholic because of a lack of knowledge (Well maybe there are folks like this but certainly not my freind.)
I've been a teacher and have learned that telling isn't teaching. Even with something as devoid of emotion and human psychology as linear equations the concept needs to be experienced and worked by the student. The teacher standing up front and talking doesn't get the concept across effectively.
We try here not to tell people what to do (and fail quite a bit in this aim
). It is human to want to give advice and fix others; however people have to figure things out on their own. I've always found support more powerful than advice in my life. I can count on one hand advice that has actually been helpful. Monosyllabic sounds of support are much more helpful and more rare.Out of curiosity, what advice have any of you received that has been helpful?
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Her new friend is party friend. Don't expect any true meaningful relationship there. And don't blame said friend. And remember, it's not too likely your AXGF was giving her new friend a very clear picture of what was going on. Alcoholics are in denial.
It's a lot to swallow, but it is what it is. Hugs.
It's a lot to swallow, but it is what it is. Hugs.
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Join Date: Dec 2015
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My xabf had a similar friendship with a couple who lived close to his home. This was a married couple with little kids who were not alcoholics but liked to drink socially. We got together with them quite a lot. What I gathered was that they were both aware of xabfīs problem but didnīt know how to deal with it. She often tried to tell him not to drink so much, to take care of his health, and she even told him to treat me better (which was echoed by all of them) and be more respectful towards me. When I mentioned this to him when we broke up, he didnīt seem to have noticed, didnīt remember her saying all these things to him. (His own sister often told him these things as well, and he didnīt care either. As will do what they want to do.)
On the other hand, he (her husband) sometimes acted like he didnīt know how to set boundaries with xabf. For instance, xabf would go over to their house for lunch and stay drinking there until it was late at night. Xabf was an expert at manipulating him so he could do whatever he wanted and have his drinking buddy. At one point, when he was calling them insisting they come over to drink one night and they had clearly told him they couldnīt make it, I told him not to harrass them so much. Some days later he went to their home and told them I had said this, so it was like I was meddling in their friendship. Of course they told him not to worry and xabf felt justified to continue behaving like this.
Xabf often made comments in the line of "they should invite me over for lunch/birthday party/watch a game, Iīll give them a call", and really felt entitled to be entertained by them. When he lost his job he was constantly pressuring his friend to help him find a job, and though he knew he was being a nuisance, he just continued doing it. I often wonder if heīs asked them for money now that Iīm not around, he probably is.
My point is, if we were treated as enablers by our particular A, their friends are most probably treated like that too. And they must have the same difficulties in changing that as we do. Also, being friends and not an intimate relationship, they probably donīt have as much invested in the relationship, so itīll take much longer for them to try to make a change, if ever.
In my case, I feel a bit sorry for this couple because they have to put up with him. You canīt just break off a friendship as you would with a romantic relationship.
On the other hand, he (her husband) sometimes acted like he didnīt know how to set boundaries with xabf. For instance, xabf would go over to their house for lunch and stay drinking there until it was late at night. Xabf was an expert at manipulating him so he could do whatever he wanted and have his drinking buddy. At one point, when he was calling them insisting they come over to drink one night and they had clearly told him they couldnīt make it, I told him not to harrass them so much. Some days later he went to their home and told them I had said this, so it was like I was meddling in their friendship. Of course they told him not to worry and xabf felt justified to continue behaving like this.
Xabf often made comments in the line of "they should invite me over for lunch/birthday party/watch a game, Iīll give them a call", and really felt entitled to be entertained by them. When he lost his job he was constantly pressuring his friend to help him find a job, and though he knew he was being a nuisance, he just continued doing it. I often wonder if heīs asked them for money now that Iīm not around, he probably is.
My point is, if we were treated as enablers by our particular A, their friends are most probably treated like that too. And they must have the same difficulties in changing that as we do. Also, being friends and not an intimate relationship, they probably donīt have as much invested in the relationship, so itīll take much longer for them to try to make a change, if ever.
In my case, I feel a bit sorry for this couple because they have to put up with him. You canīt just break off a friendship as you would with a romantic relationship.
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Join Date: Jun 2016
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Wow, holy cow -- What a great thread this has become.
First and foremost, I realized just how crazy of a codie and a nutjob I was today, even before I read all the posts here which basically wisely tell you to stop worrying about them or their lifestyle and start worrying about you.
I actually saw her yesterday which caused me to obsess and play mind games with myself when she left and told me her evening plans -- Was she being honest or just going out on a date? Said she was sleeping at her new place (first night there in a while). So of course I was drawn back into the game again. Then today before I had a chance to get to work, she shows up and frantically starts packing bags in front of me, telling me she can't wait to be done with this and get out, whistling all the while. Again, this drives me nuts and I'm sure she knows it does. I left for work but she once again ruined my day.
After having all day to finish up here before I got done for work, she seems to purposefully have waited plenty of time until I got home so I could arrive and see her packing some of the more sentimental stuff, the dog's stuff, etc -- The dog's still here too even though I assumed when I left for work that was goodbye. It's really like she's using these last moments to try and manipulate because she knows she can. It hurts, but at least knowing what she is doing helps me see what's happening. Things are still civil.
This is why NO CONTACT if you can do it can be so powerful for people like me, and I'm going to start a new thread on that topic most likely when I get my thoughts in order. Right now, until she and the dog are no longer showing up here and packing boxes, I can't get out of the mental set as I literally watch the relationship end. I'm doing my own thing but she'll be back again for the dog (last time I hope) and more stuff -- And it won't be the end still but we are getting close (instead of a moving truck, she's just done carload after carload).
I have to say, WOW, such great stuff here. I actually feel bad for her friend now and I also feel bad for even bringing her into this after reading bluelily's post. You're right -- Friends can't just kick friends out of a relationship (well they can I guess, but it's a different dynamic). My AXGF is very strong-minded and pushy when she drinks, and the kind of person most people just sort of defer to because they don't want to get on her bad side. Eventually this gets old and I cringe to think what will come of her if she loses these friends. She always seems to bounce back though. New friends. It's one of the benefits of being a pretty girl, too. She can get a lot of initial attention as she needs it as others leave her life. Unfortunately I think that's hurt her development because she hasn't had to feel it yet.
Bekindalways, I don't think you should feel responsibility either, and I really have had a change of heart since I started this thread. Like you all have said, they aren't stupid people here, they know they have a problem, and it's not like their friends are going to have any impact if their long-term-relationships don't matter either. A friend's word will carry even less. So they just go along for the ride as long as they can stay on the train too, and I imagine once they tire of it, those friendships dry up as well.
Last summer, we had a party at our house, and invited all friends from both of our worlds, past and present, neighbors, family, etc. A girlfriend of hers from around the time we met -- About 10 years ago -- Showed up with her baby and her husband. She spent most of the time talking to me, not AXGF. This is a girl I later found out did cocaine and drank heavily with AXGF right around the time before we met 10 years ago. She's left that life behind and started her family, and one of the first things she always asks me is how AXGF is doing with her drinking. She expressed concern and sadness that it still hadn't changed, and sort of just knew the writing was on the wall. She knew her friend from 10 years ago hadn't changed. And she also probably knew, why she'd rather talk to me than AXGF and why they never do anything together now. She's become a friend from a distance. Loving detachment.
Thanks to everyone who set me straight here on the blame shifting and all that jazz. My mind racing around wondering what my AXGF was up to last night, and all the emotions that come up every time I see her, tell me that this really needs to end so it can become about me.
That said, she moved 3 miles away, and inevitably we're going to see each other again at the grocery, post office, something -- liquor store! Hah! Wouldn't that be a hoot.
I have to learn to not worry about all this, but I do need the closure so I can start my own cleanup. I'm going to start by cleaning the house really good. Dog hair. Her hair. Dusting. Vacuuming. Room by room. Going to get the house in order and then get myself in order.
First and foremost, I realized just how crazy of a codie and a nutjob I was today, even before I read all the posts here which basically wisely tell you to stop worrying about them or their lifestyle and start worrying about you.
I actually saw her yesterday which caused me to obsess and play mind games with myself when she left and told me her evening plans -- Was she being honest or just going out on a date? Said she was sleeping at her new place (first night there in a while). So of course I was drawn back into the game again. Then today before I had a chance to get to work, she shows up and frantically starts packing bags in front of me, telling me she can't wait to be done with this and get out, whistling all the while. Again, this drives me nuts and I'm sure she knows it does. I left for work but she once again ruined my day.
After having all day to finish up here before I got done for work, she seems to purposefully have waited plenty of time until I got home so I could arrive and see her packing some of the more sentimental stuff, the dog's stuff, etc -- The dog's still here too even though I assumed when I left for work that was goodbye. It's really like she's using these last moments to try and manipulate because she knows she can. It hurts, but at least knowing what she is doing helps me see what's happening. Things are still civil.
This is why NO CONTACT if you can do it can be so powerful for people like me, and I'm going to start a new thread on that topic most likely when I get my thoughts in order. Right now, until she and the dog are no longer showing up here and packing boxes, I can't get out of the mental set as I literally watch the relationship end. I'm doing my own thing but she'll be back again for the dog (last time I hope) and more stuff -- And it won't be the end still but we are getting close (instead of a moving truck, she's just done carload after carload).
I have to say, WOW, such great stuff here. I actually feel bad for her friend now and I also feel bad for even bringing her into this after reading bluelily's post. You're right -- Friends can't just kick friends out of a relationship (well they can I guess, but it's a different dynamic). My AXGF is very strong-minded and pushy when she drinks, and the kind of person most people just sort of defer to because they don't want to get on her bad side. Eventually this gets old and I cringe to think what will come of her if she loses these friends. She always seems to bounce back though. New friends. It's one of the benefits of being a pretty girl, too. She can get a lot of initial attention as she needs it as others leave her life. Unfortunately I think that's hurt her development because she hasn't had to feel it yet.
Bekindalways, I don't think you should feel responsibility either, and I really have had a change of heart since I started this thread. Like you all have said, they aren't stupid people here, they know they have a problem, and it's not like their friends are going to have any impact if their long-term-relationships don't matter either. A friend's word will carry even less. So they just go along for the ride as long as they can stay on the train too, and I imagine once they tire of it, those friendships dry up as well.
Last summer, we had a party at our house, and invited all friends from both of our worlds, past and present, neighbors, family, etc. A girlfriend of hers from around the time we met -- About 10 years ago -- Showed up with her baby and her husband. She spent most of the time talking to me, not AXGF. This is a girl I later found out did cocaine and drank heavily with AXGF right around the time before we met 10 years ago. She's left that life behind and started her family, and one of the first things she always asks me is how AXGF is doing with her drinking. She expressed concern and sadness that it still hadn't changed, and sort of just knew the writing was on the wall. She knew her friend from 10 years ago hadn't changed. And she also probably knew, why she'd rather talk to me than AXGF and why they never do anything together now. She's become a friend from a distance. Loving detachment.
Thanks to everyone who set me straight here on the blame shifting and all that jazz. My mind racing around wondering what my AXGF was up to last night, and all the emotions that come up every time I see her, tell me that this really needs to end so it can become about me.
That said, she moved 3 miles away, and inevitably we're going to see each other again at the grocery, post office, something -- liquor store! Hah! Wouldn't that be a hoot.
I have to learn to not worry about all this, but I do need the closure so I can start my own cleanup. I'm going to start by cleaning the house really good. Dog hair. Her hair. Dusting. Vacuuming. Room by room. Going to get the house in order and then get myself in order.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,792
Originally Posted by Wells
But how can this so-called friend, in the light of all that she has witnessed happening, have not had a heart-to-heart with EXGF if she even cares at all about her? Their antics over recent months are what boiled us into breaking up. When she saw the strain it was putting on her good friend's 10 year relationship, why did she let it happen? Why would she not try and talk some sense into her? Just watch as her good friend drinks and drinks and her relationship crumbles?
You ask some good questions here that I believe deserve some discussion. First of all, congratulations for leaving.
People hang out with friends for basically selfish reasons. Your ex's friend is getting something out of the relationship or she would be gone like all the other friends.
In my recovery, I have had to face the selfish reasons that led me to certain relationships. In the case of me ex, I stayed because I had finally found someone, I thought, who really loved me. Could we have overcome the selfishness and addictions and remained friends after the breakup? Sure! But at this stage of life we are on totally different paths. Like the Bible says, two cannot walk together unless they agree.
I also made the mistake 2 years ago of trying to rope my ex's sister into helping me fix him. I had seen Intervention on TV and it seemed like a REALLY good idea. Now I believe I owe her an amends over that stunt, which I will do if it doesn't cause more damage.
You are at a vulnerable stage right now, and asking the same questions all the rest of us have asked. The important thing, is that you had the wisdom to leave and start your own recovery. Hang in there!!!!
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Western US
Posts: 9,012
Originally Posted by Wells
Wow, holy cow -- What a great thread this has become.
First and foremost, I realized just how crazy of a codie and a nutjob I was today, even before I read all the posts here which basically wisely tell you to stop worrying about them or their lifestyle and start worrying about you.
I actually saw her yesterday which caused me to obsess and play mind games with myself when she left and told me her evening plans -- Was she being honest or just going out on a date? Said she was sleeping at her new place (first night there in a while). So of course I was drawn back into the game again. Then today before I had a chance to get to work, she shows up and frantically starts packing bags in front of me, telling me she can't wait to be done with this and get out, whistling all the while. Again, this drives me nuts and I'm sure she knows it does. I left for work but she once again ruined my day.
After having all day to finish up here before I got done for work, she seems to purposefully have waited plenty of time until I got home so I could arrive and see her packing some of the more sentimental stuff, the dog's stuff, etc -- The dog's still here too even though I assumed when I left for work that was goodbye. It's really like she's using these last moments to try and manipulate because she knows she can. It hurts, but at least knowing what she is doing helps me see what's happening. Things are still civil.
This is why NO CONTACT if you can do it can be so powerful for people like me, and I'm going to start a new thread on that topic most likely when I get my thoughts in order. Right now, until she and the dog are no longer showing up here and packing boxes, I can't get out of the mental set as I literally watch the relationship end. I'm doing my own thing but she'll be back again for the dog (last time I hope) and more stuff -- And it won't be the end still but we are getting close (instead of a moving truck, she's just done carload after carload).
I have to say, WOW, such great stuff here. I actually feel bad for her friend now and I also feel bad for even bringing her into this after reading bluelily's post. You're right -- Friends can't just kick friends out of a relationship (well they can I guess, but it's a different dynamic). My AXGF is very strong-minded and pushy when she drinks, and the kind of person most people just sort of defer to because they don't want to get on her bad side. Eventually this gets old and I cringe to think what will come of her if she loses these friends. She always seems to bounce back though. New friends. It's one of the benefits of being a pretty girl, too. She can get a lot of initial attention as she needs it as others leave her life. Unfortunately I think that's hurt her development because she hasn't had to feel it yet.
Bekindalways, I don't think you should feel responsibility either, and I really have had a change of heart since I started this thread. Like you all have said, they aren't stupid people here, they know they have a problem, and it's not like their friends are going to have any impact if their long-term-relationships don't matter either. A friend's word will carry even less. So they just go along for the ride as long as they can stay on the train too, and I imagine once they tire of it, those friendships dry up as well.
Last summer, we had a party at our house, and invited all friends from both of our worlds, past and present, neighbors, family, etc. A girlfriend of hers from around the time we met -- About 10 years ago -- Showed up with her baby and her husband. She spent most of the time talking to me, not AXGF. This is a girl I later found out did cocaine and drank heavily with AXGF right around the time before we met 10 years ago. She's left that life behind and started her family, and one of the first things she always asks me is how AXGF is doing with her drinking. She expressed concern and sadness that it still hadn't changed, and sort of just knew the writing was on the wall. She knew her friend from 10 years ago hadn't changed. And she also probably knew, why she'd rather talk to me than AXGF and why they never do anything together now. She's become a friend from a distance. Loving detachment.
Thanks to everyone who set me straight here on the blame shifting and all that jazz. My mind racing around wondering what my AXGF was up to last night, and all the emotions that come up every time I see her, tell me that this really needs to end so it can become about me.
That said, she moved 3 miles away, and inevitably we're going to see each other again at the grocery, post office, something -- liquor store! Hah! Wouldn't that be a hoot.
I have to learn to not worry about all this, but I do need the closure so I can start my own cleanup. I'm going to start by cleaning the house really good. Dog hair. Her hair. Dusting. Vacuuming. Room by room. Going to get the house in order and then get myself in order.
First and foremost, I realized just how crazy of a codie and a nutjob I was today, even before I read all the posts here which basically wisely tell you to stop worrying about them or their lifestyle and start worrying about you.
I actually saw her yesterday which caused me to obsess and play mind games with myself when she left and told me her evening plans -- Was she being honest or just going out on a date? Said she was sleeping at her new place (first night there in a while). So of course I was drawn back into the game again. Then today before I had a chance to get to work, she shows up and frantically starts packing bags in front of me, telling me she can't wait to be done with this and get out, whistling all the while. Again, this drives me nuts and I'm sure she knows it does. I left for work but she once again ruined my day.
After having all day to finish up here before I got done for work, she seems to purposefully have waited plenty of time until I got home so I could arrive and see her packing some of the more sentimental stuff, the dog's stuff, etc -- The dog's still here too even though I assumed when I left for work that was goodbye. It's really like she's using these last moments to try and manipulate because she knows she can. It hurts, but at least knowing what she is doing helps me see what's happening. Things are still civil.
This is why NO CONTACT if you can do it can be so powerful for people like me, and I'm going to start a new thread on that topic most likely when I get my thoughts in order. Right now, until she and the dog are no longer showing up here and packing boxes, I can't get out of the mental set as I literally watch the relationship end. I'm doing my own thing but she'll be back again for the dog (last time I hope) and more stuff -- And it won't be the end still but we are getting close (instead of a moving truck, she's just done carload after carload).
I have to say, WOW, such great stuff here. I actually feel bad for her friend now and I also feel bad for even bringing her into this after reading bluelily's post. You're right -- Friends can't just kick friends out of a relationship (well they can I guess, but it's a different dynamic). My AXGF is very strong-minded and pushy when she drinks, and the kind of person most people just sort of defer to because they don't want to get on her bad side. Eventually this gets old and I cringe to think what will come of her if she loses these friends. She always seems to bounce back though. New friends. It's one of the benefits of being a pretty girl, too. She can get a lot of initial attention as she needs it as others leave her life. Unfortunately I think that's hurt her development because she hasn't had to feel it yet.
Bekindalways, I don't think you should feel responsibility either, and I really have had a change of heart since I started this thread. Like you all have said, they aren't stupid people here, they know they have a problem, and it's not like their friends are going to have any impact if their long-term-relationships don't matter either. A friend's word will carry even less. So they just go along for the ride as long as they can stay on the train too, and I imagine once they tire of it, those friendships dry up as well.
Last summer, we had a party at our house, and invited all friends from both of our worlds, past and present, neighbors, family, etc. A girlfriend of hers from around the time we met -- About 10 years ago -- Showed up with her baby and her husband. She spent most of the time talking to me, not AXGF. This is a girl I later found out did cocaine and drank heavily with AXGF right around the time before we met 10 years ago. She's left that life behind and started her family, and one of the first things she always asks me is how AXGF is doing with her drinking. She expressed concern and sadness that it still hadn't changed, and sort of just knew the writing was on the wall. She knew her friend from 10 years ago hadn't changed. And she also probably knew, why she'd rather talk to me than AXGF and why they never do anything together now. She's become a friend from a distance. Loving detachment.
Thanks to everyone who set me straight here on the blame shifting and all that jazz. My mind racing around wondering what my AXGF was up to last night, and all the emotions that come up every time I see her, tell me that this really needs to end so it can become about me.
That said, she moved 3 miles away, and inevitably we're going to see each other again at the grocery, post office, something -- liquor store! Hah! Wouldn't that be a hoot.
I have to learn to not worry about all this, but I do need the closure so I can start my own cleanup. I'm going to start by cleaning the house really good. Dog hair. Her hair. Dusting. Vacuuming. Room by room. Going to get the house in order and then get myself in order.
Yes, she probably is manipulating you in how she is moving out. Brace yourself for more. Also do everything you can to take care of yourself.
And I second a zillion times what E said:
"You are at a vulnerable stage right now, and asking the same questions all the rest of us have asked. The important thing, is that you had the wisdom to leave and start your own recovery. Hang in there!!!!"
Keep posting and let us know how your are doing.
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Join Date: Dec 2015
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"After having all day to finish up here before I got done for work, she seems to purposefully have waited plenty of time until I got home so I could arrive and see her packing some of the more sentimental stuff, the dog's stuff, etc -- The dog's still here too even though I assumed when I left for work that was goodbye. It's really like she's using these last moments to try and manipulate because she knows she can. It hurts, but at least knowing what she is doing helps me see what's happening. Things are still civil. "
This could drag on ridiculously long? Couldn't you move all her things near the front door at least? Set a deadline? It's great things are still civil, but the longer she drags out the moving/packing, the more you suffer.
It really is best for both of you.
This could drag on ridiculously long? Couldn't you move all her things near the front door at least? Set a deadline? It's great things are still civil, but the longer she drags out the moving/packing, the more you suffer.
It really is best for both of you.
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Posts: 16,633
That's EXACTLY what she'd doing. And probably hoping you'll beg her to stay--which doesn't mean she necessarily WANTS to stay, she just would prefer to say "no" on her own terms.
It seems pretty clear that there's nothing preventing her from wrapping this up this weekend. I'd tell her to have EVERYTHING done by Sunday night.
It seems pretty clear that there's nothing preventing her from wrapping this up this weekend. I'd tell her to have EVERYTHING done by Sunday night.
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Join Date: Jun 2016
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Luckily it didn't need to come to that. By noon today all but a very large furniture set she has to hire movers for will be gone. She's just a skilled procrastinator.
I'll post some updates in the main thread.
I'll post some updates in the main thread.
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