When you just can't get through to them
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When you just can't get through to them
So, last night I was actually sleeping (for the first time a few nights) and AH comes into the bedroom to ask me if I think we can work things out and be happy. He then proceeds to tell me that if I only would just "accept" him, we could be happy. When we started dating, I knew he drank and smoked marijuana. I'm pretty sure at one point he said something to the effect of my having to control him being the reason his drinking got this way. I brought up how he has drank in his car with the kids in the backseat and his response was that he did that because he felt he had to hide it from me and he wouldn't do that if he didn't have to hide it from me. Is he serious?
The smoking marijuana is also a big issue. He's now smoking in the mornings before work, as well as every night. He said it's not an issue for him and am I going to let our family break up over this? *Sigh.*
It's beyond me how he can't recognize how sick he really is. He said he wants to go back to marriage counseling. He also doesn't understand how us living apart is going to help anything.
It's amazing how much denial and irrationality there is in his mind. I know I have perpetuated all this by not enforcing my boundaries in the past. I have to move forward and officially file for divorce or separation. Maybe that will be his wake up call...or maybe not. If he wants to do counseling, I will let him be the one to find us a counselor, etc. Now that my entire family knows what's going on and I'm not bearing the shame of the secret, I am starting to feel the peace that would come with me not being around him and not having to deal with his temper tantrums, and wondering if he's been drinking or not.
The smoking marijuana is also a big issue. He's now smoking in the mornings before work, as well as every night. He said it's not an issue for him and am I going to let our family break up over this? *Sigh.*
It's beyond me how he can't recognize how sick he really is. He said he wants to go back to marriage counseling. He also doesn't understand how us living apart is going to help anything.
It's amazing how much denial and irrationality there is in his mind. I know I have perpetuated all this by not enforcing my boundaries in the past. I have to move forward and officially file for divorce or separation. Maybe that will be his wake up call...or maybe not. If he wants to do counseling, I will let him be the one to find us a counselor, etc. Now that my entire family knows what's going on and I'm not bearing the shame of the secret, I am starting to feel the peace that would come with me not being around him and not having to deal with his temper tantrums, and wondering if he's been drinking or not.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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There will definitely be signs about how deep in denial he is in... He is telling you who he is right now. You sound like you can hear him... It is a disease, but he is in control of his own recovery. It is a very sad disease and is progressive. I never imagined my ex husband would choose drugs and alcohol over his family. He did, and as the disease progresses having relationships becomes more difficult. Hugs to you....
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He might not be able to face the guilt and shame...so he tries to put the blame on you...makes him feel "justified" for whatever he did wrong..
My AH would say his mood while drinking would depend on how I treated him during that time...if I was "good" then he would be a happy drunk...if I was "bad" then that was when he would be mean...I know now that isn't true...
It is frustrating that they don't see what they are doing or what damage they are causing...but when they finally get into recovery (if they do) maybe they will understand...you just have to take care of yourself..make changes for you...he has to take care of himself...
My AH would say his mood while drinking would depend on how I treated him during that time...if I was "good" then he would be a happy drunk...if I was "bad" then that was when he would be mean...I know now that isn't true...
It is frustrating that they don't see what they are doing or what damage they are causing...but when they finally get into recovery (if they do) maybe they will understand...you just have to take care of yourself..make changes for you...he has to take care of himself...
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jada.....you might want to check out the articles written by Floyd P. Garrett, MD....(you can find them by doing a google search).....
There are several, but, you might especially appreciate...."The Addict's Dilemma", "Addiction, Lies, and Relationships", and "Excuses Alcoholics Make".....
It can help you to understand how the alcoholic mind works, a little better....
They "have" to protect their drinking at all...all....costs. Ot really is not about you....it is to protect their drinking......
While it looks like alcohol is the problem to us (no brainer)....alcohol looks like the SOLUTION to the alcoholic who is in their (necessary) denial......
No....you will never get through to him...until he can drop his denial.....
A word of caution....couples counseling is well and good.....but, there is this caveat*** It is generally considered not appropriate until the alcohol is out of the picture.....
First of all...the alcoholic is not fully available to the therapy,,,they are so full of denial and projection of blame....and can't see their responsibilities or willing to do self examination....
Also, unless specifically trained in addictions...many (good) counselors are not equipped to deal with addictions in relationships.....consequently, the alcoholic can easily pull the wool over their eyes...
If the alcoholic happens to be abusive or narcissistic....it can actually damage the partner (you).....
Warning: I have seen soo many times...the alcoholic will try to pull a compromise to please their partner and get the partner off their back by promising to go to church or to "go to marriage counseling"......
Actually, this often pleases the wife---"At least he is finally willing to get help",
What it actually does is take the focus off the core problem which is their alcoholism....it seems that most men would rather suffer the dreaded step of "marriage counseling"...over the horrors of going to AA and being labeled as an alcoholic.....
Generally, it is recommended that each go to individual counseling ,,,,then, if the alcohol issue is ever dealt with....then marriage counseling may be a possibility (if both parties still want it).....
Some food for your thought....
dandylion
There are several, but, you might especially appreciate...."The Addict's Dilemma", "Addiction, Lies, and Relationships", and "Excuses Alcoholics Make".....
It can help you to understand how the alcoholic mind works, a little better....
They "have" to protect their drinking at all...all....costs. Ot really is not about you....it is to protect their drinking......
While it looks like alcohol is the problem to us (no brainer)....alcohol looks like the SOLUTION to the alcoholic who is in their (necessary) denial......
No....you will never get through to him...until he can drop his denial.....
A word of caution....couples counseling is well and good.....but, there is this caveat*** It is generally considered not appropriate until the alcohol is out of the picture.....
First of all...the alcoholic is not fully available to the therapy,,,they are so full of denial and projection of blame....and can't see their responsibilities or willing to do self examination....
Also, unless specifically trained in addictions...many (good) counselors are not equipped to deal with addictions in relationships.....consequently, the alcoholic can easily pull the wool over their eyes...
If the alcoholic happens to be abusive or narcissistic....it can actually damage the partner (you).....
Warning: I have seen soo many times...the alcoholic will try to pull a compromise to please their partner and get the partner off their back by promising to go to church or to "go to marriage counseling"......
Actually, this often pleases the wife---"At least he is finally willing to get help",
What it actually does is take the focus off the core problem which is their alcoholism....it seems that most men would rather suffer the dreaded step of "marriage counseling"...over the horrors of going to AA and being labeled as an alcoholic.....
Generally, it is recommended that each go to individual counseling ,,,,then, if the alcohol issue is ever dealt with....then marriage counseling may be a possibility (if both parties still want it).....
Some food for your thought....
dandylion
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
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So, last night I was actually sleeping (for the first time a few nights) and AH comes into the bedroom to ask me if I think we can work things out and be happy. He then proceeds to tell me that if I only would just "accept" him, we could be happy.
When we started dating, I knew he drank and smoked marijuana. I'm pretty sure at one point he said something to the effect of my having to control him being the reason his drinking got this way. I brought up how he has drank in his car with the kids in the backseat and his response was that he did that because he felt he had to hide it from me and he wouldn't do that if he didn't have to hide it from me.
Is he serious?
The smoking marijuana is also a big issue. He's now smoking in the mornings before work, as well as every night. He said it's not an issue for him and am I going to let our family break up over this? *Sigh.*
Now that my entire family knows what's going on and I'm not bearing the shame of the secret, I am starting to feel the peace that would come with me not being around him and not having to deal with his temper tantrums, and wondering if he's been drinking or not.
Vent here when you need to. You are on the path to a better life. Don't let him put traps in your way to slow you down.
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 246
It might be better to postpone marriage counseling until he's well into his own recovery. That is, he abstains from drinking/smoking and starts to address his addiction(s) and deep rooted issues.
A year ago, I started marriage counseling with my husband. It was my decision to do it, and he began individual therapy a couple months later. Marriage counseling was mostly 10 months worth of him white knuckling it and trying to put the focus on me. We went nowhere. Seriously. We couldn't pull it off. I stopped marriage counseling a couple of months ago. Now, we have a chance to focus more on ourselves rather than the other person.
Anyway, that's my experience with marriage counseling. I wouldn't say no to it, I would postpone it until a later time...
A year ago, I started marriage counseling with my husband. It was my decision to do it, and he began individual therapy a couple months later. Marriage counseling was mostly 10 months worth of him white knuckling it and trying to put the focus on me. We went nowhere. Seriously. We couldn't pull it off. I stopped marriage counseling a couple of months ago. Now, we have a chance to focus more on ourselves rather than the other person.
Anyway, that's my experience with marriage counseling. I wouldn't say no to it, I would postpone it until a later time...
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Thank you, everyone for your responses. Good thoughts on the marriage counseling. We have tried counseling together before (although not for a very long period) and it did not seem to help. He has also been seeing a therapist on his own for quite awhile (at least 6 months) and again, does not seem to be helping. I cannot be confident that he is even telling her the truth.
He claims the marijuana is not a problem because it doesn't have the same effect on him as alcohol. In my mind, the issue still is that he is going to a few meetings, but is not really committing to recovery by working the program, getting a sponsor and giving up mind-altering substances so he can learn how to deal with stress/emotions properly. Even if he stops drinking, we still have the issue of his moods, etc. Although right now, I'm sure a lot of that is because he resents me because in his mind, I am just trying to control him.
I've asked him why he thinks smoking marijuana is a good idea, when our therapists, people in AA and everyone else says if you want to truly be sober, you have to give up all drugs. He just refuses to listen to anyone.
The support here is amazing and keeping me sane!
He claims the marijuana is not a problem because it doesn't have the same effect on him as alcohol. In my mind, the issue still is that he is going to a few meetings, but is not really committing to recovery by working the program, getting a sponsor and giving up mind-altering substances so he can learn how to deal with stress/emotions properly. Even if he stops drinking, we still have the issue of his moods, etc. Although right now, I'm sure a lot of that is because he resents me because in his mind, I am just trying to control him.
I've asked him why he thinks smoking marijuana is a good idea, when our therapists, people in AA and everyone else says if you want to truly be sober, you have to give up all drugs. He just refuses to listen to anyone.
The support here is amazing and keeping me sane!
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There's so much quacking going on in those few paragraphs that my head is spinning. It brought me back to a lot of pre-recovery discussions we had where I spent most of it shaking my head in disbelief thinking.... he can't be serious? Wait - IS he being serious??!!?? Followed by the awareness that yes, he's *that* screwed up in his thinking. It was always so shocking to think about how far apart our thought processes were when he said ridiculous stuff like this.
I'm sure this conversation left you more frustrated than before. You are right when you say he's obviously not committed to recovery in any way, and he's being pretty clear about being OK with who he is. So, how do you move forward with this in mind? What are you doing for your recovery these days?
I'm sure this conversation left you more frustrated than before. You are right when you say he's obviously not committed to recovery in any way, and he's being pretty clear about being OK with who he is. So, how do you move forward with this in mind? What are you doing for your recovery these days?
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Originally Posted by FireSprite 
I'm sure this conversation left you more frustrated than before. You are right when you say he's obviously not committed to recovery in any way, and he's being pretty clear about being OK with who he is. So, how do you move forward with this in mind? What are you doing for your recovery these days?
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I couldn't wait to post today. AH left for Mexico today (a trip I was supposed to be on.) I'm actually a little annoyed that I have to miss out since his company is paying for it and it's at an awesome all-inclusive resort. However, I also know it would have been a challenge for him to abstain from drinking so it probably would have been stressful.
Anyways, last night we had another discussion. He had posted here in the other side of the board asking whether it's possible to be in recovery from alcohol while still smoking marijuana. I saw what he wrote and he didn't give the whole story, such as he has tried to be "sober" and since July has only been able to make it 1.5 months at a time. Anyways, the overwhelming advice was no, you need to give it up, although someone mentioned maybe giving it up for 90 days to see if it's really a "problem." (I know I shouldn't even be checking what he writes....forgive my codependent ways.) Anyways, so last night he tells me he may consider giving it up for 90 days. I told him regardless, I still want to live separately. It then seems he got really offended and then got into another discussion. I told him my final goal would be for us all to be able to be a happy family (even though I know in my heart that the chances of that are close to zero.)
Wow. Well, then he goes on to say how years ago, when I first started trying to "regulate" his drinking, he should have just told me this is who he is and left. He then told me, in his own words, "Honestly, I really don't even know if I have drinking problem. I think if you had never had to try to control it, it wouldn't be an issue." He told me a lot of times he just drinks to spite me. If I had never given him the ultimatum that he had to stop drinking in order for our marriage to work, then he wouldn't be drinking so much. He said everyday, when he drives home from work and gets closer and closer to the house, his anxiety goes through the roof because of having to deal with me. Going back again to him drinking in the car with the kids in the backseat, again he says if he didn't have to hide it from me, that wouldn't be happening.
He then says, while he will miss me and we are best friends, we just never could seem to connect. I told him it's hard to connect with someone when they have an addiction problem. He said the main reason he wanted to try to make it work was for the kids. Then he tells me that throughout our relationship, he noticed that I was negative, such as saying negative things about his sister-in-law when she would post on Facebook (we have BOTH continuously said she is a negative nancy) and would point out the negative things she would post all the time. And then he tells me I have a problem because I got plastic surgery (yes, I had a couple of cosmetic procedures that I paid for with my own money). He told me I should look into getting help regarding that. He was also wanted to be clear that the only reason he's been going to more AA meetings lately is because HE wants to, not because I have been telling him to do so.
I then asked him if he intends to try to remain sober, since he just said he didn't really believe he ever had a drinking problem. He said he wasn't sure. This obviously worries me about him seeing the kids now once we're separated.
Really guys...how can he say these things? Doesn't have a problem, even though he got a DUI a month ago. Besides all the other times when he said he was only going to have a couple beers and ended up drinking 12. What really baffles me, is back in July, he came on this board (alcoholic side) and posted for the first time about how he was really ready to quit and how scared he was but he knew he had to do it to save his family. He posted daily updates and was getting lots of good feedback from others. Of course, this lasted maybe a month? I don't get how he admitted he has a drinking problem in the past, but now he doesn't? I can tell right now, I am the big villain in his eyes.
Overall, I think I handled it pretty well. We were cordial as he packed for his trip. While I didn't sleep great, I was able to sleep better than I have the last few days. He actually did me a favor by saying nasty things about me because it just reminds me what I am not going to be missing out on.
Anyways, last night we had another discussion. He had posted here in the other side of the board asking whether it's possible to be in recovery from alcohol while still smoking marijuana. I saw what he wrote and he didn't give the whole story, such as he has tried to be "sober" and since July has only been able to make it 1.5 months at a time. Anyways, the overwhelming advice was no, you need to give it up, although someone mentioned maybe giving it up for 90 days to see if it's really a "problem." (I know I shouldn't even be checking what he writes....forgive my codependent ways.) Anyways, so last night he tells me he may consider giving it up for 90 days. I told him regardless, I still want to live separately. It then seems he got really offended and then got into another discussion. I told him my final goal would be for us all to be able to be a happy family (even though I know in my heart that the chances of that are close to zero.)
Wow. Well, then he goes on to say how years ago, when I first started trying to "regulate" his drinking, he should have just told me this is who he is and left. He then told me, in his own words, "Honestly, I really don't even know if I have drinking problem. I think if you had never had to try to control it, it wouldn't be an issue." He told me a lot of times he just drinks to spite me. If I had never given him the ultimatum that he had to stop drinking in order for our marriage to work, then he wouldn't be drinking so much. He said everyday, when he drives home from work and gets closer and closer to the house, his anxiety goes through the roof because of having to deal with me. Going back again to him drinking in the car with the kids in the backseat, again he says if he didn't have to hide it from me, that wouldn't be happening.
He then says, while he will miss me and we are best friends, we just never could seem to connect. I told him it's hard to connect with someone when they have an addiction problem. He said the main reason he wanted to try to make it work was for the kids. Then he tells me that throughout our relationship, he noticed that I was negative, such as saying negative things about his sister-in-law when she would post on Facebook (we have BOTH continuously said she is a negative nancy) and would point out the negative things she would post all the time. And then he tells me I have a problem because I got plastic surgery (yes, I had a couple of cosmetic procedures that I paid for with my own money). He told me I should look into getting help regarding that. He was also wanted to be clear that the only reason he's been going to more AA meetings lately is because HE wants to, not because I have been telling him to do so.
I then asked him if he intends to try to remain sober, since he just said he didn't really believe he ever had a drinking problem. He said he wasn't sure. This obviously worries me about him seeing the kids now once we're separated.
Really guys...how can he say these things? Doesn't have a problem, even though he got a DUI a month ago. Besides all the other times when he said he was only going to have a couple beers and ended up drinking 12. What really baffles me, is back in July, he came on this board (alcoholic side) and posted for the first time about how he was really ready to quit and how scared he was but he knew he had to do it to save his family. He posted daily updates and was getting lots of good feedback from others. Of course, this lasted maybe a month? I don't get how he admitted he has a drinking problem in the past, but now he doesn't? I can tell right now, I am the big villain in his eyes.
Overall, I think I handled it pretty well. We were cordial as he packed for his trip. While I didn't sleep great, I was able to sleep better than I have the last few days. He actually did me a favor by saying nasty things about me because it just reminds me what I am not going to be missing out on.
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Originally Posted by jada1981
Yes, it's all mind boggling! Well, I have been attending al-anon and doing lots and lots of reading, as well as talking with family and venting to them, which is nice since I haven't been able to do that in the past. I am talking to my lawyer today to get things moving on that front. As the days go on, and I start to hopefully start getting better sleep, I am looking forward to getting back into an exercise routine and eating better.
REALLY great stuff here jada, just keep doing the next right thing for you!! 
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Oh wow...you must have been having a conversation with my X husband LOL.
Him saying he is not sure...that means...hell no, I plan to drink what I want b/c I don't see that I have a problem.
Go forward and protect yourself and your kids. Enjoy some peace while he is gone.
Hugs.
Him saying he is not sure...that means...hell no, I plan to drink what I want b/c I don't see that I have a problem.
Go forward and protect yourself and your kids. Enjoy some peace while he is gone.
Hugs.
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Ooops - we posted at the same time.
My AH would adamantly defend himself during his drinking days even while evidence proving him wrong stood in front of him while he spoke. It's no exaggeration to say that he would aggressively argue about the color of the sky. After getting sober he admitted he only cared about winning the "argument", not about truths.
Just this morning I was thinking about how long it took me, with a sober mind, to really grasp alcoholism & addiction. I mean, REALLY get it - like, it's not just about how much a person drinks or how often or what happens while they're drinking, etc. How long did it take me to comprehend that this disease progresses even when an addict stops drinking & that it's like a disease in the way you can get it to go into remission, but never get rid of it completely?
It took me months/years to get there in my understanding even though I was actively pursuing the knowledge & open minded to the things I learned. But it still took that long...... and it made me wonder how long it would've taken to get to that point if I were the addict. If I was clinging to denial, always operating in some fogged-out state or recovering from that & trying to keep the world from catching on..... what would cause MY Awakening?
I also truly believe that at some point in the progression, the disease starts talking for the person, that they reach a tipping point when it's not so much about feeding the beast locked up in the closet as it is having him running the show. Well, I guess it's really been that way the whole time & the closet was just an illusion. Thinking they've been in control the whole time, they've really just been increasing their physical dependency all the more.... and around & around it goes in a spiral.
Originally Posted by jada1981
Really guys...how can he say these things?
Just this morning I was thinking about how long it took me, with a sober mind, to really grasp alcoholism & addiction. I mean, REALLY get it - like, it's not just about how much a person drinks or how often or what happens while they're drinking, etc. How long did it take me to comprehend that this disease progresses even when an addict stops drinking & that it's like a disease in the way you can get it to go into remission, but never get rid of it completely?
It took me months/years to get there in my understanding even though I was actively pursuing the knowledge & open minded to the things I learned. But it still took that long...... and it made me wonder how long it would've taken to get to that point if I were the addict. If I was clinging to denial, always operating in some fogged-out state or recovering from that & trying to keep the world from catching on..... what would cause MY Awakening?
I also truly believe that at some point in the progression, the disease starts talking for the person, that they reach a tipping point when it's not so much about feeding the beast locked up in the closet as it is having him running the show. Well, I guess it's really been that way the whole time & the closet was just an illusion. Thinking they've been in control the whole time, they've really just been increasing their physical dependency all the more.... and around & around it goes in a spiral.
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Hopeful stole my line...and apparently we all share the same ex husbands 
seriously, friend-I heard every single word, line by line, from my then husband. They have an alcoholic playbook, don't you know! Keep moving forward and you will see how much peace you can have with him out of your life. Hugs to you!!
seriously, friend-I heard every single word, line by line, from my then husband. They have an alcoholic playbook, don't you know! Keep moving forward and you will see how much peace you can have with him out of your life. Hugs to you!!
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Originally Posted by jada1981
Yes, it's all mind boggling! Well, I have been attending al-anon and doing lots and lots of reading, as well as talking with family and venting to them, which is nice since I haven't been able to do that in the past. I am talking to my lawyer today to get things moving on that front. As the days go on, and I start to hopefully start getting better sleep, I am looking forward to getting back into an exercise routine and eating better.
I'm seconding Firesprite's electronic ovation of the above actions. Keep at it Jada. It so sounds like you are figuring this out although it is so dingdangdad blasted painful.
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jada.....you will never be able to get through to him by your "logical" words......
never, ever ........
If he were to "see" your logic....he would have to give up drinking forever!!!!
That concept--to an alcoholic---is like taking away oxygen, for him......
this is not about you---it is about his need to protect the ability to drink when he needs/wants to.....and, you are getting in his way (in a major way), right now.....
This explained so well by Floyd P. Garrett, in his series of articles...particularly, the one----"The Addict's Dilemma".......That is why I made the recommendation to you in a previous post.....
Yes, I think you handled it pretty well.....you just have to do what you know that you have to do.....
Just like for the alcoholic who makes promises.....it is actions that count....not just words.....
You might as well give up on trying to get him to see your logic....because he appears so deep in his denial that it unlikely to happen.....
It is actually a relief when you finally realize that you can put down that burden to trying to change him by your logic......
Remember that alcoholics are not drinking AT you (in spite of what he said...lol...)......alcoholics drink because that is what alcoholics DO......
He would be drinking with you or without you......
dandylion
never, ever ........
If he were to "see" your logic....he would have to give up drinking forever!!!!
That concept--to an alcoholic---is like taking away oxygen, for him......
this is not about you---it is about his need to protect the ability to drink when he needs/wants to.....and, you are getting in his way (in a major way), right now.....
This explained so well by Floyd P. Garrett, in his series of articles...particularly, the one----"The Addict's Dilemma".......That is why I made the recommendation to you in a previous post.....
Yes, I think you handled it pretty well.....you just have to do what you know that you have to do.....
Just like for the alcoholic who makes promises.....it is actions that count....not just words.....
You might as well give up on trying to get him to see your logic....because he appears so deep in his denial that it unlikely to happen.....
It is actually a relief when you finally realize that you can put down that burden to trying to change him by your logic......
Remember that alcoholics are not drinking AT you (in spite of what he said...lol...)......alcoholics drink because that is what alcoholics DO......
He would be drinking with you or without you......
dandylion
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Originally Posted by dandylion
This explained so well by Floyd P. Garrett, in his series of articles...particularly, the one----"The Addict's Dilemma".......That is why I made the recommendation to you in a previous post.....
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