What does Forgiveness really MEAN?
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What does Forgiveness really MEAN?
I have been thinking heavily of forgiveness lately. A small incident with RAH triggered this thought process - it was very minor & I don't even recall the details now, weeks later. (something like not calling to check in when his plans/schedule changed) In a nutshell RAH cried foul when I triggered/got angry - saying that until I forgive, we'll keep repeating this scenario.
I really stopped & thought about it because I am a self-proclaimed Grudge Monster, but decided it wasn't like that on MY side at all - I truly felt that I had forgiven his past deeds & that triggering on like-kind behavior is not the same thing at all.
To me, this was more like PTSD - I reacted to his behavior right now, because it has proven hurtful in the past. I didn't think about or bring up past examples of what this behavior/situations has led to. This wasn't about forgiving at all, in my opinion. This was about him being accountable to his behaviors right now & why it's so important for a person intending to live a true recovery to change whatever behaviors no longer fit that new lifestyle/label. It's about me being Aware that such behaviors aren't acceptable & vocalizing it ahead of a problem developing.
But it made me wonder - how do I KNOW? Especially in other relationships where we don't spend nearly the same amount of time hashing this stuff out the way that RAH & I do.
What does True Forgiveness feel like? Look like?
Does it differ depending on whether you are staying in a relationship with the party that hurt you vs. someone you are cutting contact with completely & never expect to interact with again?
Can I refuse forgiveness to another & that be OK if it's not impacting my life in any negative way (like active resentments)? If I don't forgive someone for their malice, but also never think of it/them, giving it literally zero mental time, is it hurting anyone?
Is it possible to come to peace with it (Acceptance) without forgiving? Is that a version of what people mean when they say, " I forgive but I never forget"? If you "never forget" doesn't that indicate ongoing, active resentments? If so, how is that true forgiveness.... how is that better?
I've read a thousand times that forgiveness isn't about the other person, it's about you letting go of what hurts you. If I've done something to someone else & they forgive me, does it even matter if I can never forgive myself for it? Self-forgiveness is the hardest aspect of ALL of this to wrap my mind around.
Thoughts, please!
I really stopped & thought about it because I am a self-proclaimed Grudge Monster, but decided it wasn't like that on MY side at all - I truly felt that I had forgiven his past deeds & that triggering on like-kind behavior is not the same thing at all.
To me, this was more like PTSD - I reacted to his behavior right now, because it has proven hurtful in the past. I didn't think about or bring up past examples of what this behavior/situations has led to. This wasn't about forgiving at all, in my opinion. This was about him being accountable to his behaviors right now & why it's so important for a person intending to live a true recovery to change whatever behaviors no longer fit that new lifestyle/label. It's about me being Aware that such behaviors aren't acceptable & vocalizing it ahead of a problem developing.
But it made me wonder - how do I KNOW? Especially in other relationships where we don't spend nearly the same amount of time hashing this stuff out the way that RAH & I do.
What does True Forgiveness feel like? Look like?
Does it differ depending on whether you are staying in a relationship with the party that hurt you vs. someone you are cutting contact with completely & never expect to interact with again?
Can I refuse forgiveness to another & that be OK if it's not impacting my life in any negative way (like active resentments)? If I don't forgive someone for their malice, but also never think of it/them, giving it literally zero mental time, is it hurting anyone?
Is it possible to come to peace with it (Acceptance) without forgiving? Is that a version of what people mean when they say, " I forgive but I never forget"? If you "never forget" doesn't that indicate ongoing, active resentments? If so, how is that true forgiveness.... how is that better?
I've read a thousand times that forgiveness isn't about the other person, it's about you letting go of what hurts you. If I've done something to someone else & they forgive me, does it even matter if I can never forgive myself for it? Self-forgiveness is the hardest aspect of ALL of this to wrap my mind around.
Thoughts, please!
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This is very over simplified and I apologize in advance: to me, forgiveness IS acceptance. It is not about wiping a slate clean, it's about acknowledging that another person is human and has made and will likely continue to make choices that are not the same as the ones I have made or would make or would have them make.
The "never forgetting" part comes into play with, say, my mother. I have accepted that she is not the mother I wish I had. I have accepted that she is limited in her capacity to give and receive love. I am just grateful that I am not like that. I have forgiven her for her limitations as they concerned me. But I won't forget who she is. That is, I won't expect more from her than what is reasonable to expect of her. If I do, then I am building my own resentments.
Hm. I don't know if any of that helps. But it's been on my mind a bit lately, too.
The "never forgetting" part comes into play with, say, my mother. I have accepted that she is not the mother I wish I had. I have accepted that she is limited in her capacity to give and receive love. I am just grateful that I am not like that. I have forgiven her for her limitations as they concerned me. But I won't forget who she is. That is, I won't expect more from her than what is reasonable to expect of her. If I do, then I am building my own resentments.
Hm. I don't know if any of that helps. But it's been on my mind a bit lately, too.
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty 
I have forgiven her for her limitations as they concerned me. But I won't forget who she is. That is, I won't expect more from her than what is reasonable to expect of her. If I do, then I am building my own resentments.
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I see a world of difference between the word "forgiveness" and "absolution".
Absolution is what I do when an infant sweeps a glass of milk onto the floor. What am I going to do? Wait until the infant is 21 years old and then present a bill? No, I clean up the mess and make note that I should not let anything breakable within reach of the infant. I absolve the child for any responsibility in the mess.
Forgiveness is what a bank does when some loser skips town on a small loan. The bank looks at how much it's going to cost to hire a lawyer, file in court, and then send some detective to go find the loser and colect. If the cost of pursuing the debt is higher than the amount of the debt then the bank just writes it off.
But the bank never forgets. They will never again lend to that person, and they will report the loser to all the credit agencies.
My ex owes me a marriage. But how do I collect on that? How much time and energy should I invest on that issue compared to what I could conceivable obtain?
She contacts me once in awhile, on legitimate issues. We did have 3 different companies together and there's always little details left hanging. I am polite and respectful, but that's it. She no longer is the person I fell in love with. She became a stranger when she turned to addiction, so why should I think of her any different than any other person on the street?
I have forgiven her the loss of our marriage, just like a bank forgives a loan. But I have not absolved her of her responsibility. I will never trust her again, and I am not going to spend a moment of my life on her. I have more productive things to do with my time now that I am out of that mess.
Mike
Absolution is what I do when an infant sweeps a glass of milk onto the floor. What am I going to do? Wait until the infant is 21 years old and then present a bill? No, I clean up the mess and make note that I should not let anything breakable within reach of the infant. I absolve the child for any responsibility in the mess.
Forgiveness is what a bank does when some loser skips town on a small loan. The bank looks at how much it's going to cost to hire a lawyer, file in court, and then send some detective to go find the loser and colect. If the cost of pursuing the debt is higher than the amount of the debt then the bank just writes it off.
But the bank never forgets. They will never again lend to that person, and they will report the loser to all the credit agencies.
My ex owes me a marriage. But how do I collect on that? How much time and energy should I invest on that issue compared to what I could conceivable obtain?
She contacts me once in awhile, on legitimate issues. We did have 3 different companies together and there's always little details left hanging. I am polite and respectful, but that's it. She no longer is the person I fell in love with. She became a stranger when she turned to addiction, so why should I think of her any different than any other person on the street?
I have forgiven her the loss of our marriage, just like a bank forgives a loan. But I have not absolved her of her responsibility. I will never trust her again, and I am not going to spend a moment of my life on her. I have more productive things to do with my time now that I am out of that mess.
Mike
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
In a nutshell RAH cried foul when I triggered/got angry - saying that until I forgive, we'll keep repeating this scenario.
What's your next right action? Eat, rest, do something important? When I look to being spiritual fit, the rest falls into place time and again.
I appreciate the concept of "if it's hysteria, it's history" that I heard on these boards. When I react to things that were historical instead of something in the moment, I can let those emotions be, knowing feelings aren't facts yet it's okay for me to have feelings and let them out in some of the new ways that I'm learning. Work in progress. Progress, not perfection. When I unload unfairly on someone, I can make amends. Part of the living amends means learning how to not continually do the same things. Awareness, acceptance, action. It all takes time, work and forgiveness of myself.
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Firesprite-
Great topic. I don't have a lot of contribute on the big picture question you posed, except that I am in the "middle" of some of these questions too.
About your specific situation though. I am in better touch in my recovery with my emotions. I can express them faster, clearer and I am less likely to allow them to get so BIG that they have to explode out of me. I am more likely now to be responding to present time events as a result.
Being emotional though still catches me by surprise. It also startles and scares me. They are right there on the surface. I have had many recent sessions where I report to my therapist that I don't feel good....no wait I feel emotional. Feeling emotional, boundaries, and "sticking" up for myself....though I am much more likely to do it now I still get a little bit of a emotional hangover from when I do it.
During these times I get pretty foggy. It is hard for me to know my intentions, it is hard for me to sort out if I was doing it from spite or from a healthly place etc. I often overanalyze myself during these times and a lot of old behaviors pop up. My willingness to be present, and emtional is shifting a lot of my behaviors, and thus reactions/behaviors with those around me. On top of my own stuff that gives me more to sort through.
To make a short story long, my experience is that when I am struggling with new behavior/emotions/reactions in the moment I use BIG topics like forgiveness to somehow judge myself. I do some strange math and make some weird extrapolations.
I think I am curious about how you feel about the incident itself between you and your husband? Has it gotten resolved for you? How are you feeling about your behavior? Have you been able to talk to him about it later? Though you writing indicates that you are comfortable with your behavior, he really pushed a button when he threw up the forgiveness/past piece.....do you have a sense of that trigger for you? For him?
Finally I don't have a great handle on forgiveness but I am learning that it is a process for me (I used to think it was a one time/done thing).
I also let go of a lot of self-blame around forgiveness by reading a book by Janis Abram Springs called "How Can I Forgive You and the Freedom Not To." Somehow having options around forgiveness gave me permission to stop dumping shame on me.
Great topic. I don't have a lot of contribute on the big picture question you posed, except that I am in the "middle" of some of these questions too.
About your specific situation though. I am in better touch in my recovery with my emotions. I can express them faster, clearer and I am less likely to allow them to get so BIG that they have to explode out of me. I am more likely now to be responding to present time events as a result.
Being emotional though still catches me by surprise. It also startles and scares me. They are right there on the surface. I have had many recent sessions where I report to my therapist that I don't feel good....no wait I feel emotional. Feeling emotional, boundaries, and "sticking" up for myself....though I am much more likely to do it now I still get a little bit of a emotional hangover from when I do it.
During these times I get pretty foggy. It is hard for me to know my intentions, it is hard for me to sort out if I was doing it from spite or from a healthly place etc. I often overanalyze myself during these times and a lot of old behaviors pop up. My willingness to be present, and emtional is shifting a lot of my behaviors, and thus reactions/behaviors with those around me. On top of my own stuff that gives me more to sort through.
To make a short story long, my experience is that when I am struggling with new behavior/emotions/reactions in the moment I use BIG topics like forgiveness to somehow judge myself. I do some strange math and make some weird extrapolations.
I think I am curious about how you feel about the incident itself between you and your husband? Has it gotten resolved for you? How are you feeling about your behavior? Have you been able to talk to him about it later? Though you writing indicates that you are comfortable with your behavior, he really pushed a button when he threw up the forgiveness/past piece.....do you have a sense of that trigger for you? For him?
Finally I don't have a great handle on forgiveness but I am learning that it is a process for me (I used to think it was a one time/done thing).
I also let go of a lot of self-blame around forgiveness by reading a book by Janis Abram Springs called "How Can I Forgive You and the Freedom Not To." Somehow having options around forgiveness gave me permission to stop dumping shame on me.
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The thought of forgiveness used to make me angry, because my rageaholic mother used to force me to apologize to her for causing her to rage at me when I was a child.
Finally, someone in my home group said that forgiveness heals US. It's not for the other person. You don't even tell them you've forgiven them.
The point is, you forgive them to let go of the anger you've been caring around over it that poisons YOU. You forgive because holding onto the anger only hurts YOU. It also helps to forgive because that person stops taking up space in your head.
Resentment kills alcoholics and addicts. Forgiveness sets us free.
Being able to forgive other people for their wrongdoings helps us forgive ourselves.
Forgiveness does not mean we are ok with what happened. It means we choose to no longer let what happened hurt us.
I think it also means we realize we can't change other people's behavior so forgiveness means we see them as spiritually sick and we don't take their behavior personally.
Finally, someone in my home group said that forgiveness heals US. It's not for the other person. You don't even tell them you've forgiven them.
The point is, you forgive them to let go of the anger you've been caring around over it that poisons YOU. You forgive because holding onto the anger only hurts YOU. It also helps to forgive because that person stops taking up space in your head.
Resentment kills alcoholics and addicts. Forgiveness sets us free.
Being able to forgive other people for their wrongdoings helps us forgive ourselves.
Forgiveness does not mean we are ok with what happened. It means we choose to no longer let what happened hurt us.
I think it also means we realize we can't change other people's behavior so forgiveness means we see them as spiritually sick and we don't take their behavior personally.
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^ had a conversation with someone at work today-was discussing his former drinking buddies and how his friends have fallen away bc he decided to grow up. He told me he looks at them when they are mean to him and sees the devil, not the person. I too have literally seen the devil in my ex-with my own eyes. And I've seen the devil tempting him. And I know that feeling-I've been there rolling with the devil. Spiritually sick is the best way to look at it, accept it, and find peace.
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The interaction with RAH did get solved very quickly, I actually think it was a pretty big AHA for both of us. Not the 'thing' itself, but the resulting conversation because, like I said, I don't even remember the details of it now at about 3 wks later. A big issue would not be so easily forgotten, lol. I thought about it for a couple of days & when I brought it back up it was with the intent of explaining my perspective/reaction.
Because like KTF picked up on - that was what this was REALLY about. *I* triggered on his behavior, he knee-jerked in self-defense & reacted badly to me & took my inventory - from that point it just becomes a volley of half-assery because we're spiraling emotionally & no longer really in *that* moment any longer. In the end he was dead wrong about my reasons, but correct in calling me out for bad behavior. I absolutely had control of that initial reaction. I blew past my triggerpoint even while I recognized it.
But for me it brought up lots of curiosity about forgiveness in my life in general; as admitted, I am definitely guilty of holding grudges. Truly, I have more unresolved forgiveness issues with people other than RAH at this point & those are the relationships that I pondered the most in this process.
I think I only ever entered into the Realm of Forgiving as part of my recovery process. I vividly remember telling RAH in the very, very earliest days that I wasn't sure HOW to proceed because I had literally never forgiven anyone for anything in my life & forgiving him for such personal-feeling attacks seemed insurmountable.
My thoughts have leaned toward your synopsis, SK. I actually appreciate the brevity of that simple thought because as I keep coming back to including Acceptance as another version of forgiveness, it seemed too simple. One blog that I read opined that forgiveness isn't something that you feel, it's something that you DO. I relate to this, it seems to me that what I do identify as forgiven in my life doesn't FEEL like anything different, no matter how much time passes.
Absolution vs. Forgiveness drove me crazy for a long time, Mike, lol. It took me a while to get to the distinction between the 2 & once I did, I somehow expected it to feel different emotionally. When it didn't, I guessed it might mean it was because I hadn't truly reached a state of forgiveness yet.
No, I wouldn't say so. I don't think he disregarded my feelings so much as he misinterpreted. One of his big obstacles is a lack of perspective/empathy from any POV other than his own. I would label this incident, "It's no big deal to me, why is it to you?"
We sometimes have issues where he feels like he's trying very hard to do everything to avoid hurting my feelings only to have that exact thing happen because he's thinking of it from his perspective, not mine. Generally, the next stage is overreaction, which does not involve clear thinking - kind of an emotional dysregulation, I guess? Crappy internal dialogue (I can't do ANTHING right!") + anger (release valve) = he stops actively listening to me in any way & we have to walk away because we aren't going to resolve anything. Now that he seems to be really recovering he recognizes the need to drop the rope faster & he comes back with more organized thoughts & a willingness to listen. That brings change. Slowly, we're making headway... more conversations, fewer incidences all around. But yeah, we're human, we're both still uncovering triggers & finding better ways to sidestep them.
Because like KTF picked up on - that was what this was REALLY about. *I* triggered on his behavior, he knee-jerked in self-defense & reacted badly to me & took my inventory - from that point it just becomes a volley of half-assery because we're spiraling emotionally & no longer really in *that* moment any longer. In the end he was dead wrong about my reasons, but correct in calling me out for bad behavior. I absolutely had control of that initial reaction. I blew past my triggerpoint even while I recognized it.
But for me it brought up lots of curiosity about forgiveness in my life in general; as admitted, I am definitely guilty of holding grudges. Truly, I have more unresolved forgiveness issues with people other than RAH at this point & those are the relationships that I pondered the most in this process.
I think I only ever entered into the Realm of Forgiving as part of my recovery process. I vividly remember telling RAH in the very, very earliest days that I wasn't sure HOW to proceed because I had literally never forgiven anyone for anything in my life & forgiving him for such personal-feeling attacks seemed insurmountable.
My thoughts have leaned toward your synopsis, SK. I actually appreciate the brevity of that simple thought because as I keep coming back to including Acceptance as another version of forgiveness, it seemed too simple. One blog that I read opined that forgiveness isn't something that you feel, it's something that you DO. I relate to this, it seems to me that what I do identify as forgiven in my life doesn't FEEL like anything different, no matter how much time passes.
Absolution vs. Forgiveness drove me crazy for a long time, Mike, lol. It took me a while to get to the distinction between the 2 & once I did, I somehow expected it to feel different emotionally. When it didn't, I guessed it might mean it was because I hadn't truly reached a state of forgiveness yet.
Firesprite....does you husband do this frequently....is he frequently thoughtless or disregard another's feelings (like, yours). when this sort of thing occurs?
dandylion
dandylion
We sometimes have issues where he feels like he's trying very hard to do everything to avoid hurting my feelings only to have that exact thing happen because he's thinking of it from his perspective, not mine. Generally, the next stage is overreaction, which does not involve clear thinking - kind of an emotional dysregulation, I guess? Crappy internal dialogue (I can't do ANTHING right!") + anger (release valve) = he stops actively listening to me in any way & we have to walk away because we aren't going to resolve anything. Now that he seems to be really recovering he recognizes the need to drop the rope faster & he comes back with more organized thoughts & a willingness to listen. That brings change. Slowly, we're making headway... more conversations, fewer incidences all around. But yeah, we're human, we're both still uncovering triggers & finding better ways to sidestep them.
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I look at forgiveness this way. All the resentments, the toxicity, the hatred for what my ex did to me, only needed to consume her. Not me. If it doesn't affect her, the only person that loses is me. For me, I had to get her out of my life before I could forgive her. And I didn't forgive as in, absolve her, I forgave her as in, you no longer take your toll on me and my life. Its her life, her addiction, her train wreck. But I no longer have to live it myself.
That's the best I will ever be able to do. I will never get over the things she did to me, as far as forgetting them, but they no longer take its toll on my life.
I truly knows she has an addiction. And that addiction causes her to do things that nobody should have to tolerate. I'm sure she hates herself more than I do. Deep down, at night when she has nobody but herself to listen to.
That's the best I will ever be able to do. I will never get over the things she did to me, as far as forgetting them, but they no longer take its toll on my life.
I truly knows she has an addiction. And that addiction causes her to do things that nobody should have to tolerate. I'm sure she hates herself more than I do. Deep down, at night when she has nobody but herself to listen to.
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FS, I feel like this evolves for me as well. I say I have forgiven my X for many things, but when I tell someone that I hope he falls off the face of the earth (seriously, I do), then I think I have not. I certainly don't feel all bitter and let it eat me up like I usto. I am not obsessed with what he has done and continues to do to hurt others. I have accepted who he is, and that is that.
I think about my kids I guess. We are having a rough week. My XAH is getting remarried this weekend, and my kids are having to make some decisions to go, to be involved, not to go, not to be involved, etc. It's really hard. They have turned their frustration on me a couple of times this week, and it's been really hard. However, I forgive them. I don't think about it again, I move forward 100%. I think that is the true definition of forgiveness.
I honestly don't know if I have forgiven my X. What I do know is that I saw a post on FB that was a photo of a lion, and it said the hardest person to forgive is the person who has never asked for your forgiveness. I get it, you do it for you.
After all this rambling (sorry friend), I can only say I think feelings evolve from day to day, and we handle them, in that moment, the best way we can. I think you have went through so much and that you handle it excellently, that it is up and down, and that is all you can ask of yourself.
Tight hugs.
I think about my kids I guess. We are having a rough week. My XAH is getting remarried this weekend, and my kids are having to make some decisions to go, to be involved, not to go, not to be involved, etc. It's really hard. They have turned their frustration on me a couple of times this week, and it's been really hard. However, I forgive them. I don't think about it again, I move forward 100%. I think that is the true definition of forgiveness.
I honestly don't know if I have forgiven my X. What I do know is that I saw a post on FB that was a photo of a lion, and it said the hardest person to forgive is the person who has never asked for your forgiveness. I get it, you do it for you.
After all this rambling (sorry friend), I can only say I think feelings evolve from day to day, and we handle them, in that moment, the best way we can. I think you have went through so much and that you handle it excellently, that it is up and down, and that is all you can ask of yourself.
Tight hugs.
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