FireSprite

Ok -

Forgiveness =Acceptance = the absence of active resentments

biminiblue

I think I will often have old stuff come up. Even though I've forgiven, I'm not immune to emotions and I will at times get triggered. I try to guard against dwelling on the thoughts, but they are sometimes triggered, no matter how "recovered and not resentful" I become. As a human, I don't forget what happened - it's all in there just waiting for a moment when I am off-guard, hungry, tired, stressed, or whatever.

For me, forgiving myself in that moment for being human and for having emotions is pretty integral to being able to move on. I accept that I will remember past resentments. I don't have to take them out on myself or other innocent people, though. I say a little prayer that the resentment go away, and remind myself that it is in the past and try to let it go quickly.

Five Second Rule.

LiveInPeace

I can understand this, too, although I personally replace the word "devil" with the word "ego". The part about "spiritually sick" and forgiveness is straight out of the big book of alcoholics anonymous.

I was talking recently to someone about my sister. I was telling her about some of the abusive, toxic things about her, specifically how she's treated me and other people.

But then I had a couple of memories pop up of really loving, genuine moments from her. I then made a joke about not knowing which sister I was going to get when I see her next.

Suddenly it hit me--that those loving, genuine moments--although they don't show often enough-- is her true, authentic, healthy self.!!! The one we all have deep inside but is blocked if we are spiritually sick. And that just brought the subject of "forgiveness" to a whole other level.

AnonWife

Good topic, one I will think more deeply about.

I think forgiveness doea take different shapes based on the relationship.

I have minor quabbles about my childhood, a few things that hurt me at the time but as Ive grown up I realized my parents also had to. make choices and I understand better their side. So I realized they were human and its more about acceptance and realizing there was nothing to really forgive.

Ive had past boyfriends who I broke up with. Some I felt I needed to forgive because it allowed me to save the good memories we shared. Others well they didnt ever come to mind again, id say why waste time.

Ive had.coworkers do me wrong, and even if I understand their own goals drove them, its more acceptance of this is who they are, so I keep a guard up.

But with close relationships I think its about truly accepting the person, the past, knowing they are human and will make more mistakes just as I will. Forgiving is wiping the slate clean not expecting them to keep proving, or do things to reassure me becauase of the past. Those things happen, but I feel its prior to the forgiveness phase. Prove to me, is not forgiveness its casting doubt and still holding pain. So trust also comes into play, can I trust if I cannot forgive and move on. Can I love someone the way they deserve in a marriage if I have doubts, expect special reassurances all the rime because they once wronged me. No, I couldnt have a fulfilling marriage this way. I either accept my husband, forgive so we can be complete equals one not owing the other. Or I would never be happy.

firebolt

I love this thread. So much insight , and I have nothing more to add other than to

FS - some thoughts from someone who resonates with his side of this

Eek....this was me - SO MUCH. I'm getting better all the time, but admittedly still slip. It takes a very conscious effort for me to

First - actually listen to the other person
Second - tell myself that the persons thoughts, stand, or feelings are as valid as mine even though they differ
and last - Acknowledge their position and DO NOTHING to try and change it.

I was floored to see how I was engaging with others was even a problem. For some of us, empathy, understanding, acceptance does not come very naturally. I don't know if it's self absorption, or a more serious tangent of codie? I've read a bit about schemas and schema therapy (more popular in Europe than here) and these symptoms are listed in our 'schemas' and can be part of codependency....which is often part of addiction.

FireSprite

I can admit that it was a surprise to me to learn this over the course of my recovery. I am the opposite & wrongly assumed that everyone was like me in that sense - it never occurred to me that we can all be different in *this* way too & it's not a bad thing, just different.

For RAH, we think it relates to ADD. It is something he has to practice & work at, it does not come naturally at all. He gets incredibly frustrated when he feels like he is trying so hard to "get it" but just can't shift perspective. A lot of our disagreements have gotten further inflamed because of this - for a long time he really just thought "nothing was ever good enough" for me & that I was trying to hold him to ridiculous standards.

Understanding how this relates to his undiagnosed ADD/ADHD (neither of us doubt this in any way after reading up on the literature, thank you dandylion!) has helped ME tremendously to have more compassion & less frustration when we communicate.

dandylion

FireSprite......I give lots of credit to you!!!!!!!

Living with someone who has undiagnosed/untreated ADD is exceptionally difficult.....

dandylion

petals

I find it easier to forgive others than myself.

LifeRecovery

I just want to thank everyone for the forgiveness = acceptance statement.

It allows me to see how much I have forgiven and am at peace with. It is not complete, but it is in process. If I am not at peace my job right now is to accept whatever feelings in the moment and to trust that given time and work this to will allow me to settle into deeper peace.

I am also struck by what being in relationship does for us. When we are open to the learning we can gain so much.

Bluehawaii

Forgiveness does not mean we are ok with what happened. It means we choose to no longer let what happened hurt us.

I love this!! It's going on my fridge ! Notes...calendar...iPad
Thanks!

FireSprite

I came across this listening to an audio reading of The Shack, by William P Young. I've read it before & many parts of it resonated for me but this section didn't stand out as strongly to me at the time.

If you don't know the book, I highly recommend it. It's a great parable about God where the main character spends a weekend with God in a cabin, searching for his belief & faith. I'm not religious at ALL but I got a lot out of this story & it's characters.

This excerpt is from a conversation Mac has with God about forgiving the man that murdered his daughter (I've edited it slightly to keep it on-point with this thread):



Forgiveness is not about forgetting, it's about letting go of another person's throat. ...... Forgiveness is first for you, the Forgiver, to release you from something that will eat you alive, that will destroy your Joy and your ability to love fully & openly. ....... I've already told you that Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done & change their mind & behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change no REAL relationship can be established.

So - forgiveness doesn't require me to pretend that what he did never happened?

How CAN you? Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one that you forgive, but should they finally confess & repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation. Sometimes, and this may seem incomprehensible to you right now, that road may even take you to the miracle of fully restored trust.

It feels like if I forgive this guy, he gets off free!

Forgiveness does not excuse anything - the last thing this man is, is free.... and you have no duty to justice in this. *I* will handle that.

Carpathia

I like biminiblue's point that we are human and this is a process of letting go. Stuff will come up. In those moments we need acceptance, not of the other, but of ourselves.

Yesterday morning while meditating I found within me a spark of forgiveness toward a family member.

In that brief moment, I felt complete release. I felt light as a feather and warm inside. And I thought, "This is what forgiveness is about!!"

Within a few hours I was feeling triggered again and obsessing about this person and bla bla bla.

But I think what's going to help me is bringing forgiveness to myself in these moments. And praying for the grace to forgive again.

Knowing that we are human, there cannot be anything like perfect forgiveness. That reality helps relieve me of the pressure I might otherwise place on myself to reach an absolute point.

I've read and heard people say it's a journey, journey, journey.

Until I put down the alcohol it was never about a journey for me. My journey was all about the path to another drink and that's it.

But now in sobriety I'm beginning to understand, it IS a journey and forgiveness is part of it.

POAndrea

Good thread--and tough topic. Thank you, FireSprite, for the timeliness, as I am struggling with not only achieving forgiveness, but understanding just what the heck it is. And thank you, all posters, for your definitions and insights. I don't think I truly comprehend it yet, but at least now, like Justice Stewart said about obscenity, "I know it when I see it."

healthyagain

Glad I came across this. Yes, I would agree that forgiveness means no active resentment.

Now about all the things my ex said and did . . . I really do not forgive, because I must not. You do not forgive and forget emotional abuse. But letting go of anger, of wanting to retaliate, wishing something bad happen to him . . . that might be my form of forgiveness. Just let it go, be happy, enjoy your life, and learn your lesson well.

NYCDoglvr

Beautiful! Thanks for reminding me that by forgiving I'm letting go of unhealthy, toxic feelings.

Stung

This is a great thread, but I can't help but giggle at how complex it seems to have gotten about forgiveness versus other feelings or equating it to other feelings. I've read and heard about how much a person can heal in raising their own children in a healthy light and my first thought when reading the title of this thread is the definition of what forgiveness means: to stop being angry - something that is covered in one of the children's books that I read to my kids.

I think people on the al-anon side of things are resentment heavy while simultaneously being emotional stuffers. I think we like to convince ourselves that we've let go of something or are over it but low and behold...when we become triggered it becomes apparent that some of that hurt or anger is still there.

My 2 cents, anyway. Thanks for this thread!

Praying

For me the forgiveness vs absolution story made great sense...

Because forgiveness is me recognizing the humanity in others. The paths a person may choose that don't fit with my moral beliefs of right and wrong and how to treat people. Recognizing that someone else, for whatever reason, is incapable of meeting my standard...allows me to accept them as they are and remove them from my life. Not because they're rotten or horrible...but because they aren't healthy FOR ME. In doing so, I forgive their actions toward me and release them to be around others who may accept it.

I am hurt by their behavior, but I learn to accept it and move on and know it wasn't about me at all.

The harder part of forgiveness, I found, was forgiving myself for staying and taking it over and over. I didn't realize my lack of forgiveness was really linked to my anger with myself.

I think it's easy to forgive someone who makes an honest mistake (one, not a thousand) and feels terrible about it and repents. Most of us aren't dealing with that here.