Gwenyth

My AH has been sober 6 days (short: he moved out over labor day, binged for 4 days, hit rock bottom and for once realized his life was unmanageable and that "one more" would kill him; he begged for one more chance and I decided to give it to him). I am working on detaching and I went to two alanon meetings yesterday. My AH has not gone to AA since he sobered up -regardless of his justifications, I am letting go and letting God (and trying to ignore the pit in my stomach).

After one of the alanon meetings yesterday, a woman came up to me and said she was an alcoholic, recovered 28 years. She then proceeded to tell me that my AH is going to relapse because he is not going to AA (I know this) and she basically made me feel stupid for believing my AH when he said he hit rock bottom yada, yada.... I'm sure she had the best of intentions, but I am really upset! I am doing the best I can - I believe that my AH hit rock bottom, I believe that he wants to stop drinking. I believe he deserves one last chance (but if he blows that, then he is on his own). He knows what he needs to do and I am praying (NOT nagging!) that he will do it. I've been through too much to let this woman get to me, but she did. I don't know if what I am doing is right, but I feel like it is - even without attending AA, he is a different person and we just had one of the best weekends of our marriage. I want a sober husband and more weekends like this past one, but I can't force him to recover - so why did this woman make me feel like it was my fault for not making my AH go to AA? ARGH!

Thanks for letting me vent.

Magichappens

Gwenyth,
Try to remember that people in Al-Anon are there because they are sick too. There are people in my group that I wouldn't trust to get me a cup of coffee. I don't blame them for the way they are. I figure they need Al-Anon as much if not more than I do.

The slogan "Stick With The Winners" is one I use. There is some great recovery in my group, and I try to listen to those people. They are the ones who share their experience, strength, and hope without being judgemental. Even the best of them have times when they are going to say something that might not be good for me. After all, their human too. But with time, and practice, I have learned to take what I like, and leave the rest.

We all have the reality that no alcoholic is guaranteed sobriety. Living one day at a time allows me to enjoy the times when things are good, and bare the times when they aren't. Don't give up. There are a lot of good, understanding people in Al-Anon that can help you. Don't let one person deprive you of the wealth of healing you have tapped into. Hugs, Magic

Peaches04

Hi Gwenthy,

Don't let that woman utilize even one more second of your positive energy. If it happens again - you will cross that bridge when you get to it. Enjoy it while it's good! I am so new to this and I am in that place where when he's not drinking, I'm even more angry because it is so good and I just know he'll screw it up again - and I waste all my time worrying about when it's going to happen (which unfortunately for me - is a matter of hours, not days But, your AH took a step, that's something, right!? You hang in there - and I'm with Magic - Stick with the winners - it's YOUR life.

smoke gets in my eyes

Your husband is not going to relapse because he is not going to AA. Your husband will relapse, or not, based on the resolve he has found and can hang onto. AA helps with that resolve for some people, but it is not the only way to recover.

Try to have patience with the Herald of Doom. She may have just explained herself poorly. There is simply no knowing where someone else's rock bottom is. It's not observable from the outside. Sometimes a turning point is a small thing that makes and internal earthquake. I would have thought Dino getting kicked in the head by a pusher until he was deaf was rock bottom, but his using went on for years after that. His "bottom" was more subtle, and more complex. Doomy might more correctly have said that it may be easier on your heart to "hope" this is his bottom than to "believe" it is.

Hugs,
Smoke

Gwenyth

Thanks for the encouragement! Peaches, it sounds like we are in the same boat. This past weekend was so amazing with my husband sober. It actually made me sad - I feel like it isn't going to last and we're at the point that if he drinks again he has to leave.

I never know if what I am doing is the right thing. I don't want to enable him, but I don't want to manipulate him either. Last week when we decided he could come home, I gave him a list of my boundaries (at least the ones that affect him), including if he does x (abusive, etc.) he has to move out until he has one year sobriety. if he does y (lying, emotional abuse), he has to move out until he has 3 month sobriety. Then I added if he gets drunk, but does not do x or y, he has to move out for 3 months or go back to rehab for a weekend session (his choice). Is that being manipulative? So long as he does not do x or y, then his drinking does not truly hurt me. I just don't know. Is it okay to live with an AH that is trying to recover, but relapases every so often IF his relapses do not jeopardize me, etc. Do I have to make him move out?

Peaches04

Hi Gwenyth! Boy- that is the million dollar question, isn't it! I would give anything for someone to come and tell me that! I am 35 have 2 small children and I ask myself over and over and over again..what do I do? Do I stay or go? How much pain can I take? How much of this effects my babies? Is it better for them if I just learn to live 'in spite' of this or if I just move on. If I leave, would I be happier...yes, I'm sure of it. At least while he's still drinking. Would I find someone new to love...probably. Would it be better for my children - I don't know? That's the one unknown variable that confuses me. Other than that - I'd be gone like the wind and yes, I am SURE of that!

Rose56

Gewnyth, I like what Magic and Smoke had to say. I am not sure what to say about your boundaries, I hope someone else jumps in here with some info. It seems to me that boundaries are more about what you will do under certain circumstances, not a prescribed sober period for him, determined by you. Perhaps you could think about what you would do for yourself under these circumstances, like ask him to move out, follow thru with any necessary action to get him to move out, attend x number of alanon meetings weekly, work the steps each day, .... etc.

Peaches, I use to spend so much time agonizing over the things you mention: whether to stay or go, is it better for the kids, etc. It took me quite a long time to get comfortable with my daily decision to stay. Remember that there is no magic answer for you or your kids, there is only what seems best at the time. If you are sure that you are better off apart from your husband, and your not sure if staying would be better for the kids, then perhaps you are leaning toward separating. Remember, kids do best when Mommy is doing best. Hang in there, you will know when you are sure.

Paulie

Well I am an addict and will jump in here with my 4 cents.

Those in my opinon are not boundaries, those are rules that you are giving him to follow that you set. Especially time limits for certain things that he does. When I was newly in recovery rules like that would have set me for a spin. Or to be honest with you, I would have thought something crazy like "oh well it is only 3 months if I do x" so WTF?" Sounds, sick but that is how I thought.

IMO again, a boundary is something for you, not a rule for someone else to follow.

And about the woman who said he will relapse without AA. That is her stuff, I am totally 12 step but from being a part of SR for the past few years I know in my heart that 12 step is not the only way. Lots of people get and stay sober without a 12 a step program.

I am a little confused about how you know that your H hit rock bottom. I am an addict myself who has been blessed to be sober for 9 years now, but I am not sure myself if I have hit my bottom yet, does that make sense to you? I never say never, I have been around long enough to see people die that have said never.

Continue to work on you, he is going to do what he is going to do. Try and focus on what you will do if he mistreats you, rather than what his punishment will be.

God Bless.

Peaches04

Rose56 and Paulie - you both sound quite wise! And yes, Paulie I am very much leaning toward leaving right now. And Paulie...maybe you can help me here too. We went to counseling and I told him in counseling that if he didn't "change his behavior - whatever that took" I was going to get a divorce. So, he's thinking that over and the counselor said for HIM to call and make the next appt if he wants to do that. My dilemma is this - I grew up in this environment and I learned how to 'handle' it very, very well. And I see a real chance for peace and happiness - and I want it! I want it so bad it hurts... I am just now beginning to see that it even exists for people!

Peaches04

By the way Paulie - I absolutely LOVE your quote!

Paulie

Peaches -

I love the quote to!!! LOL

I was not suggesting that you leave, I would never do that. That is a absolute solo decision on your part.

I was just suggesting that instead of ultimatums (that usually don't work with an addict, sure has heck never did with me) that you focus on what you are going to do for yourself if he continues to use or to mistreat you.

Again, in counseling you gave him an ultimatum. There are few things I know for sure, or like my H says, 'we addicts know a whole lot about nothing'. but I do know that you can't ultimatum, threaten, beg, promise, whatever word you want to use, you cannot force someone into staying clean.

As long as the chance is there, then hang on. Just make sure you are hanging on to you and your HP, and not just to your H.

Gwenyth

Okay, now it's painfully clear - I am VERY confused about boundaries. What I am trying to convey to my AH is that certain behaviors that he does are unacceptable and I am no longer willing to tolerate them....but, I can understand how the boundaries I listed could be construed as punishments. It's not intended that way. I just don't want my AH to say, "but I didn't understand the consequences of me doing x or y." Yes, that is foolish of me perhaps, but I have tolerated such conduct in the past and I want him to know that I am no longer willing to do so. The time apart is meant for me to spend time alone to recover from & deal with what ever the latest infliction is. SO. Another million dollar question: what do I do? Do I tell my AH the boundaries were inadvertantly my attempt to control your recovery and I don't want to do that, but know I will no longer tolerate certain behaviors?

p.s. How do I know my AH hit rock bottom? Within the last 6 months, he's been to detox twice and rehab once. He's been drinking since he was 15 (he's 30). He woke up from his 4 day binge and said that for the first time he thought he had hit rock bottom - he was afraid to drink again and afraid of what it would do to him. He said for the first time that his life had become unmanageable - prior to this revelation, he had told me that his life had not become unmanageable. What he said and how he said it leads me to believe (rightly or wrongly) that he has indeed hit the point where he believes he needs to change. I'm just not sure how I am to support that decision without being controlling or manipulative (...just yesterday I told him I was going to alanon and I could find a meeting with a nearby AA, if he was interested...he reminded me that it is HIS recovery. He has not been to AA since he has been sober).

Peaches04

Thanks Paulie...that's where I get confused between ultimatums and threats and rules. I viewed it more as I was saying that I can't take this unhealthy relationship anymore and this is what I'm willing to do to get rid of it. And then if he wanted to work it out - great - but, if not...then that was his choice? Do I have it right? He started our counseling saying "yes, I think I'm an alcholic and need help" then two weeks later it was "she thinks it's a problem, I don't - so I'm sure it's somewhere in between"...I didn't take that as such a good sign. He has been going to his own counselor, but I think that much like me initially, he thinks that the counselor is going to say "oh - here's how you fix it".. and since that's not the case - he is not getting that immediate gratification. But, I'm waiting patiently - that's what the counselor said my job was - be patient. But, honestly - I don't see him as being ready to see it. I see signs of hope - we went to church and he's been reading the bible and talking much more philosophically about ways to look at things. but, the codie side of me thinks he's doing what it takes to give me the impression he is working on it. Just enough to keep me hanging on. I told him in counseling that if he didn't want to stop and he loved me to please let me go. and I meant it - but, then I felt stupid for saying "let me go" - as if I need his permission to do it.. What a codie!!

Peaches04

and Gwenyth...look at you! How fast you are able to accept and assimilate new information! I admire that! We're lucky to have Paulie here to help us sort through these ultimatums and threats and whatever else!

journeygal

Gwenyth,

A lot of people get confused about boundaries.

Boundaries are rules we set for ourselves. They are rules for you to abide by, not him. Believe me, your husband knows what you're willing to put up with. You've told him over and over. There's no need to set any rules for him. He's a grown man, he can make his own choices.

If your husband never goes to another meeting, what are you going to do?

If your husband starts drinking again, what are you going to do?

If your husband is abusive, what are you going to do?

Boundaries define our behavior, not theirs.

Paulie

Gwenyth -

I agree with Peaches, you are great, open to learning what others views and opinions are, that is huge, being teachable. I was told along time ago that as long as I remain teachable, I have a chance at staying sober.

First let me address the 'bottom' issue again. I am not saying your husband has or has not hit his bottom. All I am saying is for ME, I don't know living in my car and then trading my car for drugs and standing there on the side of the road with nothing as my car (my house) drove away was my bottom. Because I don't know if I will ever use again or not? For today, just for today I will not use, because I made that concious decision this morning when I woke up not to, tomorrow, well tomorrow is not here yet, so I don't know. As I said I have heard lots of people over the years say they hit bottom and will never use/drink again...and a few of them are dead.

You have to know that the boundaries you set YOU will not tolerate. It is about you not him. An active H is not concerned with consequences I can promise you that. I got clean at 31. Through my entire 20's my mom bailed me out of things. She would pay the rent right before I got evicted and stuff like that. then she stopped, she didn't give me money to pay the electric bill, I had no electricity, was that my fault...ummm NO, it was hers for not giving me the money. I got evicted and my BF at the time (now my H) were living in my car. Was that our fault...ummm NO, mom should have paid the rent, or the company he worked for should have continued to let him live in the apt even though he was fired and the new maint. person got the apt. I mean heck he worked there for 4 years they should have let him stay for free. Do you see my point here? the ridiculous justification and active A has? it is pure stupidity to think that way, but I sure as heck did.

Peaches - LOL, what a codie?? that is funny , try being an addict and a codie - now that is really funny!!!!
As long as the addict is saying 'she thinks :' that says it all right there.

Peaches04

I think with me (and I understand this is a codependent thing) - we feel like we have to make super duper sure ...that we made ourselves clear...so that when we follow through - we don't have to feel guilty. With me...I always say to myself "well, it's not fair to do that, because he didn't really understand the consequences"...I'll say it "THIS WAY" and that will make it clear... and on and on.. But, it is so true - the AH knows exactly what he can and can't get away with and knows exactly where that line is - even more so than me. Which, now that I'm thinking this out - means I need to figure out where that line is! Should i just ask him? haha!!! That was a JOKE!

Paulie

that was funny.

The line, just remember, it is YOUR line! You need to be comfortable with it, not him. As JG said so well, he knows.

Gwenyth

Everyone thank you so much for contributing here - I truly appreciate the input. I went to an alanon meeting over lunch and got nothing out of it (they were discussing the 9th tradition re service - which is great, but does nothing to help me sort things out!).

JG - I think I follow you. Honestly, if my AH never went to another meeting, I don't care. I will continue to "Let Go and Let God" - it's his recovery (I just have to learn not to stress about it!). If he starts drinking again, I would not let his conduct control me. I will leave the house and make myself do something other than sitting at home being upset about him being drunk. If he is abusive (physically or emotionally), he must move out (only because I refuse to move out of our house over his drinking). I think it is starting to sink in. Peaches - I hope this is helping you too??

MootPoint

As an addict/alkie, I know that I pushed every boundary I could get ahold of. I pushed, hoping that the boundary would stretch. If it wouldn't, I would do just as much as I could get away with [/i]all the time[/i]. Made living with me unbearable.

Just what this addict/alkie used to do.

Good for you re alanon! That is taking YOUR recovery into YOUR hands.
Re HIS recovery....... that's just what it is.

From JG...
Well said, JG .

Gwenyth, I'll also throw in my voice with Peaches that you're assimilating all this wonderfully!