honeypig

Cleopatra, that is--for the Queen of De Nial!!

Holy f'ing carpfish--I took a bunch of stuff off my bookshelf to clean it, sort it and move what's left to a new shelf. I came across some old journals (I never have been able to be consistent, but there are spotty entries all the way back to the early '90s) and I leafed thru them a bit.

I found one entry dated November 1, 2008, saying I had confronted XAH 2 weeks ago about secret drinking--this is a full year before I saw him come downstairs on his birthday in December 2009, obviously drunk, and insisted he get back to AA. That's the date I always use as "the beginning", and clearly that is wrong.

Even more alarming, I saw an undated entry saying that he'd confessed to me that he'd been drinking and smoking "intermittently" while hiding both of those activities and falsifying the financial records to cover his tracks since his first attempt at returning to tech school, which was in fall of 2004. So I don't know when he told me this, but I DID KNOW that he'd been doing it all the way back to 2004.

I KNEW THIS WAS GOING ON! I KNEW WAY MORE ABOUT THE EXTENT OF IT THAN I CAN EVEN BELIEVE! But there it is, in my own handwriting. Holy carpfish. And I have absolutely no memory of either of these occasions.

No wonder he expected I'd never change, never do anything about it, never get out of the marriage and start looking out for myself...

I am just stunned. Not upset, really, but just feeling blindsided, about as much as I did when I first came here. Only this time the one who blindsided me was ME. WTF.

dandylion

Honeypig....I think that it is really analogous to what the alcoholic goes through.
You were so desperate to preserve the relationship....to hold on at all costs.
If you were to face up to it, straight on....it might mean losing the relationship.
Denial helped you not have to face it, like that.
Same with the alcoholic...if they face up the what is happening....they would have to stop drinking. In desperation to hold on to the "freedom" to drink...denial is their only "protection".

I l ike how this is explained in "Addiction, Lies, and Relationships" (Floyd P. Garrett).

dandylion

LexieCat

I dunno, I think you're being a little hard on yourself. Until you see where something is going, you'd have no reason to attach a whole lot of importance to events that don't seem that big a deal at the time. As Freud supposedly said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"--no deeper meaning. You saw something that annoyed/upset you, you had a conversation about it, and as far as you knew, that was it. Not unreasonable. With hindsight we can see all KINDS of things, but that doesn't mean we SHOULD have known more than we did.

healthyagain

Honeypig, never underestimate the power of denial. When I think about my husband, there were some red flags at the very beginning. Some of them I could not see, some of them I deliberately ignored, and some I misinterpreted due to circumstances. We created a reality for ourselves and lived it. Perhaps this is what happened to you. But you did wake up in the end.

honeypig

Thanks for this, Lexie. That is exactly it--I didn't know there was more, I didn't realize that him simply saying it wouldn't happen again didn't mean a thing. I was judging everything by my own marks, not realizing all bets are off w/an A.

I think this is a classic case of "we don't know what we don't know", right? And holy cow, did I ever not know...maybe I'm not Cleo after all. Maybe not denial but just plain unadorned ignorance.

And yes, healthyagain, I did wake up in the end, thanks to SR and Alanon. I feel so fortunate!

Mango blast

Thanks, Lexie, and thank you Honeypig for its post.

I've been learning to be very gentle with myself. I did things because it was the best I knew and had to give at any certain time. Nothing has changed about my past except my viewpoint, and that is likely to change again.

As I learn not to judge or condemn others, I've also needed to greatly apply those lessons to how I see myself. Now; as a young girl; as a woman in love; as a person in fear; as a person who is and always has been worthy of love and of loving others.

Prhaps act as if this was someone else who told you this was their past. Would you be outraged they didn't act sooner, or would you not bat an eyelash and love them fully as they are?

With much love for all you've ever shared and given to me.

Ktf

LexieCat

Yeah, when I think of "denial," I think of willfully turning a blind eye to something for which there is ample evidence and information--known to us--because it is too unpleasant to contemplate. It's the opposite of acceptance, I think.

Alcoholics in denial spin elaborate rationalizations for the bad things that are happening in their lives, rather than facing the unpleasant truth that they are alcoholics and their lives have become unmanageable.

Friends and family in denial see the damage, hear the broken promises, over and over again but continue to cling to the belief that the problems in their lives are situational rather than their own maladaptive actions resulting from living with alcoholism.

When we know better, we do better. Acceptance is the key.

SeriousKarma

So if not "denial", then what word can we use when we find ourself in a holding pattern of procrastination? When we know there is something wrong, but we shove it to the back of our mental filing cabinet to be dealt with later?

I can also find old journal entries chronicling times when I confronted my XAH, or when he promised to get help. Things would be better for a time, and then the cycle would start again. For some reason, even though I could foggily remember the past times, the incidents never built on one another to a climax. This went on for years. Incident. Promised resolution. Incident. Promised resolution. Incident. Promised resolution...

Maybe it was just stress. Not wanting to take on more than I could handle? Or maybe it was that right after one of his benders, when he was contrite and apologetic and feeling weak I actually liked the feeling of closeness and intimacy that I had with him. Now that I think about it, it was only after he pulled that intimacy fix away that I started to really pull things together.

Uplifting

Karma-this really hit something for me that I haven't been able to put into words. the dance of incident, apology forgiveness denial rinse repeat, and my being hooked by a closeness or "intimacy" that always comes from his remorse and my denial of the seriousness of things. It is in that space that I am most vulnerable to "relapse" of my addiction, him and the rollercoaster. Almost like I am waiting for him to change this dance, when really it has to be ME. I guess I am still terrified of making this change. Terrified. It's easier to feel strong when he is actively drinking and then when he stops and false promises and hope for change and denial on my part set it, I weaken. I always weaken and I really want to stop weakening in that space.

Butterfly

Honeypig, please be gentle with yourself, when I look back over my marriage I should have left so many times but I always believed the promises and really hoped against all hope that he meant it this time. I shouldn't have brought my kids up in this environment. I think I blocked out a lot of things that did happen!!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and if we keep looking back and beating ourself up over what we should have done we won't ever move forward.

What is the saying when we know better, we do better??

Your doing amazingly ((((hugs))))

maia1234

Ok HP- After reading your thread, I had letters in my basement, that my XAH sent to me back in high school, 1982, 33 years ago. I just started reading all these letters today, thanks to you. I had no clue what would be in them. I found 2 that were very interesting. I had gotten in a fight with him both times, I guess.

Here is a few lines from the first one. "I don't want t be an alcoholic or smoke pot forever, I feel I'm still young and that I'm graduating this year, and I'd like to party". "I won't do it for ever". "I don't want to be a pot head or an alcoholic." " I just want to be able to party and drink freely for a few more years".

Second one: "I'm sorry about lying to you about pot." "If we had a baby, I wouldn't want to get stoned." " I just wish pot wouldn't ruin it between us." "You say i'm addicted, well maybe I am and maybe I'm not, but I'm not a mean person when I'm stoned." "Even if I'm addicted I won't do it forever." " I also feel so lonely, That is the main reason I got stoned at school." "The only reason I have friends is because people enjoy getting stoned with me." "I know I have lied to you." " when I'm older, I won't smoke pot."

Really Maia................. was there no signs??? Did I not see the writing on the wall? I am blown away by these letters. I think that I am going to send them to him. They are his property and he can do with them as he pleases. (I will keep copies though)

AnvilheadII

if those are letters he sent to you, they are your property. what would be the point of sending them to him?

the message is for YOU.

LexieCat

Yeah, I agree. He sent them to you--if you want to keep them, keep them, if you want to burn them, burn them.

Sending them back to him would be for what purpose? To rub his face in it?

Eauchiche

I ignored some pretty big red flags because I loved him. Sorry, Dr. Laura!!!

SeriousKarma

I found a letter a while back that my XAH had written about 20 years ago admitting that he was an alcoholic, and promising to quit. I, too, had the urge to send it to him.

I realized, the only purpose in sending it to him would be to prove, once again, that I'm right. But he already knows that. I suspect all addicts know on some level that we're right. They just choose to ignore it.

I will say, however, that the letter I found is important to me, and every so often I pull it out and look at it. There are times when I doubt some of my memories. Was his drinking really that bad? Did he ever really value our relationship? It's nice to have something tangible that I can look at when I need to know that I wasn't imagining it all.

silentrun

It's just the way our minds work. I had a moment like that about 7 months after I quit drinking. All the signs were there and I biased them out. It just hit me all at once how bad my drinking problem was and how deep it went. It was literally like this scene from the movie "the Usual Suspects".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_6SenP4DDg

Yup, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he does not exist.

On the bright side it was hugely freeing. I worked it out step by step and ended up losing all my fear.

maia1234

Eauchiche my friend u r so funny! Dr. Laura..

Lexi not really sure why u would say I want to "rub his face in it."

What this shows to me is that my x is the person he always was, when he was 18 years old, the lies, the drinking the smoking dope. That nothing has/had changed in 33 years, he was partying and I was upset. It shows me that I had been trying to change him to be what I wanted him to be for 33 years. I know this means nothing to u but it's a Wow moment In my life. I hadn't read these letters and it shocks me that I have struggled with his addiction that long. It makes me very sad, it validates the pain I have felt for a very long time. No wonder why I was as sick as I was.

Not bitter and angry like u think, just sad.

LexieCat

Because it won't do any good to point any of those things out to him. Whether you mean to "rub his face in it" or not, that's how it will feel to him. Think of it this way. Suppose you had a friend who had warned you against him back in high school. She found letters or notes or something you had sent her talking about trouble he'd gotten into drinking or drugging, and she sent them to you. Wouldn't it feel like a great big "I told you so," even if she meant well?

Hangnbyathread

Let's not forget that you also believed what he was telling you. Back in the days when you still felt that there was trust in your partner. The half truths, was enough truth for you to be convinced "you" were the problem.

*sigh*. I remember those days.

It wasn't denial you were feeling. It was a certain amount of hope you had that the truths you felt were valid.

They are the ones that are taking advantage of us.

honeypig

Hangn, that is right on the money--I believed him and trusted him again and again. "When someone shows you who they are, believe them" hadn't entered my worldview yet. He told me he had been taking money, yet I continued to let him handle the finances, feeling that this was a show of my trust in him and surely he'd recognize that and start acting honorably.

It's just so weird, knowing what I have learned in the last few years...it's unbelievable to me now that I'd do those things. And again, I don't feel upset or bitter, or at least not very much, not today (who knows about tomorrow?). I guess more than anything else, I'm glad to have the info for the light it sheds on "what I knew and when I knew it." Needless to say, those journals are going to be saved...

Thanks to all who've posted here; there are some great points made and I appreciate the insights and experiences shared.