healthyagain

As I am getting ready to file, I am struggling with only one idea. And that is filing for uncontested divorce even it is so much cheaper, meaning that it is "no fault divorce," and that I am supposed to agree with my AH on everything. The point is, I do not think that any agreement is going to be possible. The guy is such a spineless slime. And he is "guilty" of breaking up this marriage by choosing addiction and being an abusive ass. Why "no fault"?

Anyway, although I separated my bank accounts, we still share one account because our joint car loan and insurance. I add half of the money for these expenses, and his salary is deposited there. I do not touch even a dime of his. So yesterday he "complains" to me how he only has $400 left and has to pay "all these bills," hinting that I add money (which I won't and I only do it a day before the payment is due). Now, the thing is, the online statement clearly shows that he was buying liquor every day last week spending around 20 bucks on average (and this is not surprising to me at all, what is surprising is that he actually used the card and left a trail).

My initial reaction is to call him and tear him a new one. But my little voice is telling me "heeeeeey, wait a second, let him use that card again and again and again and leave that trail. Perhaps this can be used in court?"

So, I do not know. Any thoughts?

In any case, I think I should see the lawyer again sometime next week.

Pia

I would not tell him anything and let him use the cc to show a trail. My only concern is proving it is being used from his card since it is a joint account. Get as much proof as possible. Also, you don't want to say anything or else he would stop and use cash and then no trail.

I originally did a uncontested divorce before and he didn't even read it he just signed. Do you think he would read it?

Florence

IME, in court, the person with the most paperwork wins. Let him build a paper trail is my thought.

LexieCat

I think that's a question for your lawyer. "No fault" divorce isn't giving him a "pass"--it just spares the two of you a long dragged-out court battle (which will be very expensive for you both).

What do you anticipate your battles will be about? Find out from your lawyer whether "proving" he's an alcoholic has any benefit whatsoever for you. I personally felt that fighting for what I was "entitled" to wasn't worth it for me. Standard tactics for divorce negotiation are to ask for more than you're willing to settle for (and he will probably do the same), there will be some back-and-forth, and eventually you'll both wind up with an agreement you feel you can live with.

Do you own a house together? Do you each have a job? A pension or retirement account? How long were you married? Do you have large investment accounts or joint debts? If there isn't all that much to split up, and you don't stand to suffer great economic harm, then there probably isn't any point to a contested divorce proceeding. If I recall correctly, you have no children together?

healthyagain

I do not think that he is going to read anything, honestly. He is in a really bad condition, mentally and physically, even neglecting his looks in public (and hygiene has really been very important to him, now he looks like a street bum). In any case, I'll see the lawyer again and keep my mouth shut. Maybe it cannot be used in court, but I keep forgetting that I must keep tensions low, and confronting him will not help.

healthyagain

We have no house, both have jobs, a car loan, and some tax debt we are paying off (around $2000). No kids. I do not want anything from him, I do not even want any type of support because he is incapable of supporting even himself. I would rather pay all the debt than share it with him (he simply will not be able to pay anything). If he was "cooperating," we could have the easiest divorce ever. He is in such a denial and think that I will come back! It is like, "if I keep my eyes closed, it ain't happening." I think going "contested" is more because of my feeling of "justice." I do not really want anything his or to do with him.

Readreadread

I say present him an offer that he can't refuse, make sure that he is barred from ever asking you for alimony in the future and get away from him ASAP. If he doesn't sign that you can always re-think your strategy.

guava

I'm not a lawyer but you may find that having a spouse who refuses to read any documents and is in denial may actually make some things easier for you. My XAH basically ignored the whole divorce like it wasn't happening. He never responded to any of my filings and didn't show up for the hearing. Essentially he defaulted and the Judge granted all of my requests. Much simpler than fighting someone who was involved and arguing over ever asset (or in my case custody.) I am grateful he didn't choose to participate in the proceedings.

The final outcome and just having it over with is so much more important than making sure the proper person carries the blame.

LexieCat

A good question to ask yourself: "Would I rather be RIGHT, or would I rather be HAPPY?"

I see absolutely no benefit to you in paying literally tens of thousands of dollars to a lawyer (court time is more expensive than office time) to have a judge declare him "at fault" and give you the same stuff you'd get for paying minimal legal fees. That is mortgaging your future for the sake of your ego, if I can be blunt about it.

Believe me, there is wonderful satisfaction in simply being done and walking away to a promising new life. The money you spend on a lawyer could be better spent fixing up a nice new apartment, joining a gym, going out with friends. Think "big picture" here, not what would give you momentary satisfaction.

Katchie

Definitely a Q for your lawyer, but good on you for paying attention and catching it. I know you want to rip him a new one over it, but isn't it nice you don't have to do that anymore!!! Every once in a while my mind wants to travel that direction with my STBXAH, but then I stop and tell myself "it's no longer my problem". Obviously the joint account does include you so the sooner you can be free of that the better. You sound like you are doing GREAT!

healthyagain

Thanks! I must admit he still gets me. I just have this "code of behavior" (yes it comes from the family, probably culture too), and it is strictly black an white, right and wrong. So when he dared to ask ME to give HIM money to cover HIS bills, and repeated this three times, I went through the roof. I am aware that this is to be expected, but really how dares he, where is his manhood. Luckily, I was able to control myself and just tell him calmly "I heard you the first time, I'll deposit money before they take it. No worries." And I know and have the proof he was wasting money on booze. Not to mention I remembered all the name calling, and sleepless night, and talking to the DV lady. So I was like, this guy is such an unscrupulous slime. You can detach, you can learn to control yourself, but there is always the "surprise!" factor. I guess this got me.

AnvilheadII

please remember that BUYING alcohol is no proof of a drinking problem anymore than buying FOOD is an indication of an eating disorder. there is no WIN to be had there.

is there really any reason to maintain contact at this point? just proceed steadily with the goal of having this over, not getting one over on him. and get on with your precious life!!!!

LexieCat

And let me throw one other thought out there. A "no-fault" divorce is only a term of art for a proceeding where the parties decide to waive a finding--it doesn't literally mean that it was no one's fault. It isn't the same as a judicial FINDING of "no fault" on his part. It also doesn't involve your having to say or admit that he had no fault. Usually the only thing you have to say is that the marriage is "irretrievably broken" or whatever the magic words are in your state. No dispute about that, is there?

So my suggestion is forget what it's called. It makes zero difference in your life and your future.

SnoozyQ

Totally agree Lexie. Great advice.
It's a sad situation. Why make it any harder than it is. He is in no condition to fight it , just sad really.

Refiner

Yep, if he's this bad, he doesn't even put 2 and 2 together knowing you can see his transactions online. PAPER TRAIL, my friend!

Hangnbyathread

Lexie is right on here. Don't bother spending the money. All a paper trail does is give YOU the satisfaction and validation that he is an alcoholic.

None of this stuff will matter once you are rid of him.

honeypig

My contribution from experience here: I live in Wisconsin, in the Milwaukee area. W/the particular laws we have here, I was able to do a pro se legal separation. I was fortunate in finding a lawyer who worked "consult only" w/me to make sure I filed things completely, properly and on time. Then, when it became necessary, I converted that to a divorce, all for WELL under a grand, including the court filing fees.

Altho we had a house, we had no kids, no debt and no doubt about who owned what. XAH was gracious enough to not fight me for the house (I brought it to the marriage, but as far as the law is concerned here, it's half his b/c we were married--his cooperation was essential for that part). In that setup, it absolutely made sense for me to do things all myself w/legal advice to make sure I didn't mess up.

It seems that most here DO have kids, financial entanglements, and non-cooperative (to put it lightly) spouses, and a pro se divorce would never be the right choice for these folks. However, I would certainly recommend that anyone who finds him/herself in a situation like mine check the laws of their state and see if pro se is an option. I've encountered a couple major expenses since the divorce, and I'm oh so grateful that I still have money in the bank to cover those, rather than having spent it all on an attorney.

LexieCat

GREAT suggestion, HP. Sounds like that would be a huge money-saver in this situation. As you pointed out, this would be appropriate ONLY for the most uncomplicated of divorces, and not a good idea if there are kids and significant property/debt/other considerations.

theuncertainty

Anvil's right. Where that info had helped me was to kind of reinforce that AXH had a problem with the truth and was lying to the court about quite a lot of things :

• "I have a valid license." (No, his license had expired YEARS ago from a state we'd lived in YEARS ago.)
• "I never hurt TU. Then, later, "I just did ___ once. Maybe. But then I realized it hurt her."
• "TU has kept DS from me." (When asked if it was his weekend, the answer was "I guess maybe not according to the schedule." When asked if he saw him on his weekend, the answer was "No." Why? "I was sleeping.")
• "I took care of all my bills, but TU never paid anything." (I paid his rent for a month beyond when I'd left, and made sure the utilities were current through the month I'd left. All of the debt "we" had was in my name, not his and not both.)
• "I never really spent that much on alcohol anyway. Maybe once every couple months." (Our statements showed which of the 2 debit cards attached to the account was used, and he stopped at a liquor store almost every day for months just before I took him off the account and then left.)

But I don't think the court would have cared too much about the statements as proof about his addiction.

If going pro se is an option where you are, it will definitely save money. And starting out pro se doesn't necessarily mean you'd have to finish the divorce that way if things go south. (I started out pro se and then got a lawyer once AXH started trying to say I wasn't providing DS with an appropriate home and was trying to keep DS from him.)

hopeful4

I was fully prepared to use receipts for alcohol in my divorce proceedings if push came to shove. Why should you do a thing about it? His actions, his consequences.