Mistrust
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Mistrust
I was reading some things last night on loss of trust in relationships. This is what I'm struggling most with currently. I actually showed this to my A because I was so floored at how it represented my feelings. He agreed that's what he felt from me. It's a good reason why we recommend learning to detach-- because living this way hurts everyone. I am not effectively detaching at the moment!
Under mistrust everything is the exact opposite of the laws of trust.
Under the laws of mistrust:
- Peace becomes War
- Connection becomes Disconnection
- Love becomes Fear
- Desire becomes Rejection
- Affection becomes Hostility
- Confidence becomes Insecurity
Since human nature desires connection, peace, and love--when we mistrust, we're opposing out own natural instinct, which is a very hard and painful way to live.
Hmm...
Under mistrust everything is the exact opposite of the laws of trust.
Under the laws of mistrust:
- Peace becomes War
- Connection becomes Disconnection
- Love becomes Fear
- Desire becomes Rejection
- Affection becomes Hostility
- Confidence becomes Insecurity
Since human nature desires connection, peace, and love--when we mistrust, we're opposing out own natural instinct, which is a very hard and painful way to live.
Hmm...
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If I have to detach from someone who was supposed to be my partner in life, then really what's the point? Commitment and detachment don’t go together in my world. I do find detachment a useful tool only when there are no other choices. But usually there are other options they are just the ones we don’t like. That’s been my experience.
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII 
unless of course there are valid reason to NOT trust some one or some thing.
In all my years I never researched rebuilding trust, because I never got to a point where I was healthy enough with my X (or he was) to want or consider it.
I was curious now how that really happens post-recovery. It seems very hard. But if I decide to stick around my recovering A, I need to recognize where my trust is broken, and give it lots of time to heal.
The negatives on that list exactly describe a lot of my reactions right now--and he knows my trust is shattered and that I'm not sure how it will come back. Time and consistency I guess. But hanging around me if I'm feeling that way seems detrimental to both of us...leading to my thoughts of more space while we both heal. Because they are valid feelings.
Just something I hadn't really thought of before. I've thought of detachment and space resulting more from each other's addiction dance, not due to the loss of trust. But that's my deepest pain at the moment, and the part I'm not sure I'm willing to give back. He's shaping up on the recovery front. I'm still holding back.
I read something else interesting today-- love and forgiveness are choices, but trust can't be chosen--it must be earned.
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this is my dilemma in regards to my RAS, trust. the lies, betrayals and disrespect haven't healed just because he is on the right track at the moment...
i've never stopped loving him and i really have forgiven. but the trust, as you say, has to be earned and it feels like that could take a very long time. through my recovery work and an awesome therapist this lack of trust has become easier to bear. i'm not the suspicious, micromanaging detective i was in his early recovery. it's not the huge elephant in the room during our interactions anymore. but i'm still holding back.
i've let go of the guilt of not trusting my adult child. it was my trust in him which helped allow him to maintain a hidden life and it was abuse of this trust that allowed him to abuse me - financially, emotionally and spiritually.
i don't know if he can ever earn it back. the other side of this coin, the part i'm working on, is that the way all this addiction crap played out has really shaken my trust in myself. now that is something i will regain. and maybe not trusting him is one way in which i can learn to trust myself again?
these are valid feelings for sure. i realize there are differences in the parent or spouse relationships but you really struck a chord with me on the subject of trust and how losing it impacts relationships.... i have the need to face this so i can heal.
thanks for the thread! sending good thoughts your way Praying!
Originally Posted by Praying
I've thought of detachment and space resulting more from each other's addiction dance, not due to the loss of trust. But that's my deepest pain at the moment, and the part I'm not sure I'm willing to give back. He's shaping up on the recovery front. I'm still holding back.
I read something else interesting today-- love and forgiveness are choices, but trust can't be chosen--it must be earned.
I read something else interesting today-- love and forgiveness are choices, but trust can't be chosen--it must be earned.
i've let go of the guilt of not trusting my adult child. it was my trust in him which helped allow him to maintain a hidden life and it was abuse of this trust that allowed him to abuse me - financially, emotionally and spiritually.
i don't know if he can ever earn it back. the other side of this coin, the part i'm working on, is that the way all this addiction crap played out has really shaken my trust in myself. now that is something i will regain. and maybe not trusting him is one way in which i can learn to trust myself again?
these are valid feelings for sure. i realize there are differences in the parent or spouse relationships but you really struck a chord with me on the subject of trust and how losing it impacts relationships.... i have the need to face this so i can heal.
thanks for the thread! sending good thoughts your way Praying!
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Lovenjoy- I totally understand that feeling. I found this excerpt helpful. It's anonymously written and available on the web--similar to the one day at a time philosophy--but made me think, YES! I can let you in TODAY, then close the door at night and decide again tomorrow. Still hard. But I liked the picture this gave me.
---------------------
Your trust is like a home. You can sit on the porch and watch the way someone outside behaves, and if you don't like the behavior, you don't have to let him in. You can watch him, you can sit there on the porch and tell him that you're rooting for him and that you hope he gets better, and then you can go inside and close the door. If you're having a good day, you can blow him kisses before you go in. But you don't have to invite him in with you. Your home is secure because you have built clear boundaries around it. Some things are allowed, and others are not. It isn't easy, but it's simple.
Finally, one day you feel comfortable enough to invite him in. And this time, it really is different. You know—and he knows—that the reason you trust yourself enough to say "Come in" is that you also trust yourself enough to say "Get out." Every day you take a leap of faith, choosing to trust him. Being betrayed has provided you with the opportunity to learn how to trust with your eyes open. You will be generous but not stupid.
And then months or years after making the same choice every day and seeing that he is constant in his behavior, you suddenly realize that you have forgotten to make the choice, that you have settled into a position of trust. It is not the blind trust you had before; it is wiser, and more adult. In that way, it is better.
— Anonymous, an East Coast writer, has reestablished a healthy relationship with her formerly drug-addicted partner, whose identity he trusts her to protect
---------------------
Your trust is like a home. You can sit on the porch and watch the way someone outside behaves, and if you don't like the behavior, you don't have to let him in. You can watch him, you can sit there on the porch and tell him that you're rooting for him and that you hope he gets better, and then you can go inside and close the door. If you're having a good day, you can blow him kisses before you go in. But you don't have to invite him in with you. Your home is secure because you have built clear boundaries around it. Some things are allowed, and others are not. It isn't easy, but it's simple.
Finally, one day you feel comfortable enough to invite him in. And this time, it really is different. You know—and he knows—that the reason you trust yourself enough to say "Come in" is that you also trust yourself enough to say "Get out." Every day you take a leap of faith, choosing to trust him. Being betrayed has provided you with the opportunity to learn how to trust with your eyes open. You will be generous but not stupid.
And then months or years after making the same choice every day and seeing that he is constant in his behavior, you suddenly realize that you have forgotten to make the choice, that you have settled into a position of trust. It is not the blind trust you had before; it is wiser, and more adult. In that way, it is better.
— Anonymous, an East Coast writer, has reestablished a healthy relationship with her formerly drug-addicted partner, whose identity he trusts her to protect
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i'm not sure i ever WAS able to rebuild trust and a relationship when trust was violated. thinking here. i know i gave a lot of second chance tickets out, without having done the necessary repair work and i'll be damned if EVERY time the same thing happened AGAIN.
fool me once shame on you
fool me twice shame on me
fool me three times shame on both of us
ya know if it had been a single event, you might be able to chalk it up to stupidity or temporary insanity or whatever. but we also need to look for are PATTERNS of behavior....liars lie....about everything and nothing. things big, things small. overt and covert.
fool me once shame on you
fool me twice shame on me
fool me three times shame on both of us
ya know if it had been a single event, you might be able to chalk it up to stupidity or temporary insanity or whatever. but we also need to look for are PATTERNS of behavior....liars lie....about everything and nothing. things big, things small. overt and covert.
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Anvil, I agree when it comes to most things. A liar is a liar.
However, I think sometimes addiction brings out lies and deceptive, secretive behavior in someone who wouldn't lie about anything else.
If that person is remorseful and chooses recovery, presumably at some point they can become trustworthy again.
Recognizing that relapse is always possible.
However, I think sometimes addiction brings out lies and deceptive, secretive behavior in someone who wouldn't lie about anything else.
If that person is remorseful and chooses recovery, presumably at some point they can become trustworthy again.
Recognizing that relapse is always possible.
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
ya know if it had been a single event, you might be able to chalk it up to stupidity or temporary insanity or whatever. but we also need to look for are PATTERNS of behavior....liars lie....about everything and nothing. things big, things small. overt and covert.
Trust has to start deep inside of me, all other trust stems from me trusting myself to be OK no matter what chaos life throws my way; that I'll have the ability & skills to survive & thrive. And that as much as my life can be enhanced by others, I'll never need to depend on them because I can trust Me to take care of Me. Even trusting that I could make mistakes & grow from them.
Trusting in me & my instincts to create & maintain healthy boundaries is what helps me see others for exactly who/what they are & only allow the trustworthy to get "inside the house" like in your example above. Everyone else can stay outside.
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I think you are right that trust is earned and the only thing that seems to work to rebuild trust for me is time, and consistency. But I read somewhere that instead of detachment and no contact and all of the other things that most people in this forum promote is to try to give the A love, understanding and compassion. Obviously this would not work with someone that is abusive. But your A seems to be trying to work a recovery program and it appears to me that you truly do want to trust your A. In my humble opinion, I think the only way you will know is if you do spend time and give your A time to show you through consistency. If you detach or have space then how will you truly know? That being said, I firmly believe everyone needs to listen to their gut and do what is right for them. What is right for one person is not right for another. Put yourself and your needs first right now. Do whatever you need to do for you to be happy and healthy. I know you have been hurt and everyone heals at different rates. At the end of the day, this is your life. No one lives that life, but you. Do what you need to do and want to do regardless of how it feels it looks to anyone else. Be your own advocate right now. Hugs!!
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Praying.....my reference to Dick Van Dyke (Remember ChittyChitty Bang Bang?)
At one time he was a falling-down drunk...even when he was doing fabulous work. He gave up the drink....decades ago. At this time, he is in advanced age and still working full tilt with a family and wife that he met well after the recovery began. (Recently his car caught on fire...and he escaped from the car and was quite cheerful in front of the cameras).
By all accounts, he is very engaged with his family and all those who work with him.....
I don't think he could have accomplished all that at his age (after he sought recovery) unless he had built trust with loved ones and co-workers!
I guess that m y point was to give y ou a positive story of success where trust is concerned....
It Can happen...maybe, not for all.....but, for some.....
dandylion
At one time he was a falling-down drunk...even when he was doing fabulous work. He gave up the drink....decades ago. At this time, he is in advanced age and still working full tilt with a family and wife that he met well after the recovery began. (Recently his car caught on fire...and he escaped from the car and was quite cheerful in front of the cameras).
By all accounts, he is very engaged with his family and all those who work with him.....
I don't think he could have accomplished all that at his age (after he sought recovery) unless he had built trust with loved ones and co-workers!
I guess that m y point was to give y ou a positive story of success where trust is concerned....
It Can happen...maybe, not for all.....but, for some.....
dandylion
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Thank you all for your thoughts.
SP said something I've been mulling around-
"But I read somewhere that instead of detachment and no contact and all of the other things that most people in this forum promote is to try to give the A love, understanding and compassion. Obviously this would not work with someone that is abusive. But your A seems to be trying to work a recovery program and it appears to me that you truly do want to trust your A."
I think I'm still mad that I'm IN this situation- like the kid who wants to take her ball and go home so nobody can play. Because all of the love and compassion I gave XAH for years just added to my pain. Like the fibers in my body are too smart to fall for that again.
BUT- in many ways that is NOT fair to him. You're correct that I want to trust him. I want to believe in him. And I don't want to be foolish... but he is heading in the right direction, and I agree it's better/easier with support than abandonment.
I'm going to post a new thread later today with some of those thoughts.
SP said something I've been mulling around-
"But I read somewhere that instead of detachment and no contact and all of the other things that most people in this forum promote is to try to give the A love, understanding and compassion. Obviously this would not work with someone that is abusive. But your A seems to be trying to work a recovery program and it appears to me that you truly do want to trust your A."
I think I'm still mad that I'm IN this situation- like the kid who wants to take her ball and go home so nobody can play. Because all of the love and compassion I gave XAH for years just added to my pain. Like the fibers in my body are too smart to fall for that again.
BUT- in many ways that is NOT fair to him. You're correct that I want to trust him. I want to believe in him. And I don't want to be foolish... but he is heading in the right direction, and I agree it's better/easier with support than abandonment.
I'm going to post a new thread later today with some of those thoughts.
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So it's time for my six month check in on SR again...seems like that's been my pattern anyway. 
Update- He quit drinking in April and hasn't had a drink since. In May he started AA and seemed on the right path.
The pattern started pretty quickly before I knew it--he avoided adult decisions and responsibility, I bore the burden of kid schedules, interaction with his ex, finances...and I've been so unhappy. His other addictive behaviors have surged--nicotine nonstop, anorexia, shopping...and he's crabby with and overwhelmed by any responsibility. I've begged him to get help since June.
For months I'd try to discuss things and he pretended everything was alright. If I got really angry he wouldn't talk to me, just wait and hope it passed, or promise to be a good boy...until it faded. He would choose to not call or come home on time when he didn't feel like dealing with his family. I said multiple times--I'm not happy. Once he said it sounded like my problem because he was happy, which floored me. But I've been so HONEST through it all, which I'm proud of. Not building resentments, just getting tired of it.
I felt such a responsibility for his kids who had a neglectful father, whose lives improved tremendously in my house, and who loved the consistent love I brought to them, that I felt trapped. But I decided I couldn't own that and let it rob me of my happiness. They have two parents. My boys have only me. About a week ago I told him this isn't working, I've been unhappy all year, and I need space. (He is a calm, nice person, not a mean angry one.) I told him he and the kids needed to move out. He kind of went berserk (totally out of character) and was a little frightening, but moved. He made it so much worse for the kids than it needed to be.
At one point he asked if the kids could stay with me so we don't shake them up again--I actually considered it before saying NO, they need to be with you. Staying with me won't allow him to step up like he needs to, and it would mean "dad's in trouble for a while".
He's still getting stuff from the house and still thinks he's coming back--though I told him it will be at least a year of him working seriously on himself before I'm in a space to consider it. I said he needed to show "sustained independent living". He poured himself back into AA and is working on step 4, having all these revelations. He appears to be doing the right things. But it's been a WEEK.
He came for a load of things yesterday and asked if "we were okay". I said I didn't know how to answer that--we're as okay today as we were yesterday. He said he felt like I was pulling away and "done". I've told him all along I don't know if I'm done or not, that I need time away. This isn't time to date each other, but time to be individuals.
As for being in touch with your feelings- I was happy after he left (my son referred to it as "giddy"), then totally unhappy while considering letting the kids stay and thinking he could do this, then happy again when I confirmed they all had to go. I point that out because in my long marriage to my XAH, I couldn't trust or recognize my feelings. I do now, and I'm grateful I haven't lost touch with them.
So new territory for me now. Can someone share experience with an RA who is NICE (but codependent and needy as heck), who you know has a very long journey ahead that you may or may not want to be part of? He keeps wanting to get together for coffee or talk every day, and I need space--don't know how much or how long. But some friends say that if I'm not cultivating the relationship, then I should say I'm done now. I disagree. I think he needs to get a better relationship with himself first and come knocking much later. Text once or twice a day maybe, but that's it.
Is that reasonable?
Sorry for the ramble...and thanks for any thoughts.
Update- He quit drinking in April and hasn't had a drink since. In May he started AA and seemed on the right path.
The pattern started pretty quickly before I knew it--he avoided adult decisions and responsibility, I bore the burden of kid schedules, interaction with his ex, finances...and I've been so unhappy. His other addictive behaviors have surged--nicotine nonstop, anorexia, shopping...and he's crabby with and overwhelmed by any responsibility. I've begged him to get help since June.
For months I'd try to discuss things and he pretended everything was alright. If I got really angry he wouldn't talk to me, just wait and hope it passed, or promise to be a good boy...until it faded. He would choose to not call or come home on time when he didn't feel like dealing with his family. I said multiple times--I'm not happy. Once he said it sounded like my problem because he was happy, which floored me. But I've been so HONEST through it all, which I'm proud of. Not building resentments, just getting tired of it.
I felt such a responsibility for his kids who had a neglectful father, whose lives improved tremendously in my house, and who loved the consistent love I brought to them, that I felt trapped. But I decided I couldn't own that and let it rob me of my happiness. They have two parents. My boys have only me. About a week ago I told him this isn't working, I've been unhappy all year, and I need space. (He is a calm, nice person, not a mean angry one.) I told him he and the kids needed to move out. He kind of went berserk (totally out of character) and was a little frightening, but moved. He made it so much worse for the kids than it needed to be.
At one point he asked if the kids could stay with me so we don't shake them up again--I actually considered it before saying NO, they need to be with you. Staying with me won't allow him to step up like he needs to, and it would mean "dad's in trouble for a while".
He's still getting stuff from the house and still thinks he's coming back--though I told him it will be at least a year of him working seriously on himself before I'm in a space to consider it. I said he needed to show "sustained independent living". He poured himself back into AA and is working on step 4, having all these revelations. He appears to be doing the right things. But it's been a WEEK.
He came for a load of things yesterday and asked if "we were okay". I said I didn't know how to answer that--we're as okay today as we were yesterday. He said he felt like I was pulling away and "done". I've told him all along I don't know if I'm done or not, that I need time away. This isn't time to date each other, but time to be individuals.
As for being in touch with your feelings- I was happy after he left (my son referred to it as "giddy"), then totally unhappy while considering letting the kids stay and thinking he could do this, then happy again when I confirmed they all had to go. I point that out because in my long marriage to my XAH, I couldn't trust or recognize my feelings. I do now, and I'm grateful I haven't lost touch with them.
So new territory for me now. Can someone share experience with an RA who is NICE (but codependent and needy as heck), who you know has a very long journey ahead that you may or may not want to be part of? He keeps wanting to get together for coffee or talk every day, and I need space--don't know how much or how long. But some friends say that if I'm not cultivating the relationship, then I should say I'm done now. I disagree. I think he needs to get a better relationship with himself first and come knocking much later. Text once or twice a day maybe, but that's it.
Is that reasonable?
Sorry for the ramble...and thanks for any thoughts.
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Anything you want is reasonable, because you don't owe him anything. It sounds like where he is right now is not what you are looking for. You are both adults, and this is how it goes sometimes.
My suggestion is that if you really want time and space...then really take the time and space and cease contact while YOU get back in touch with your feelings. Anything less is just keeping you both strung along.
My suggestion is that if you really want time and space...then really take the time and space and cease contact while YOU get back in touch with your feelings. Anything less is just keeping you both strung along.
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I agree with SparkleKitty. It sounds as if indecision is distressing for you (it sure as heck is for ME), and you felt better once you had decided to move on. Now he starts taking steps toward recovery, and boom--you're right back in indecision mode.
I think that taking a good long break from each other can only be good for both of you. He needs to focus on his own recovery without assessing where he stands with you on any given day, and YOU need a break from the burdens this relationship has put on you, and maybe some time to think about what kind of boundaries you need for relationships in the future--whether with this guy, if you wind up getting back together at some point, or with somebody else.
You could tell him you can't make any promises or predictions, but that he can look you up in a year if he's solidly sober and wants to try to reconnect. If you do that, you need to prepare yourself for the possibility he will get sober and meet someone else. And that should be OK. You might meet someone else in the meantime, yourself. Or after a year either or both of you might simply feel that you no longer want to connect. And that should be OK, too.
I think that taking a good long break from each other can only be good for both of you. He needs to focus on his own recovery without assessing where he stands with you on any given day, and YOU need a break from the burdens this relationship has put on you, and maybe some time to think about what kind of boundaries you need for relationships in the future--whether with this guy, if you wind up getting back together at some point, or with somebody else.
You could tell him you can't make any promises or predictions, but that he can look you up in a year if he's solidly sober and wants to try to reconnect. If you do that, you need to prepare yourself for the possibility he will get sober and meet someone else. And that should be OK. You might meet someone else in the meantime, yourself. Or after a year either or both of you might simply feel that you no longer want to connect. And that should be OK, too.
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Thanks for the responses, I know back this spring when I chose to stay I was "asking for it"...but he was different!!! I swear!
He IS different in that he did quit drinking six months ago, and he's a kind person in many ways. He's NOT different in that as along as I'm around he'll be able to avoid responsibility, and he repeatedly chooses it--which isn't very kind to me.
He actually said, in response to why he didn't call to check in and I had no idea where he was at dinner..."there are always lots of people there and you're busy with them and can't focus on our conversation. I don't find that enjoyable. When I talk on the phone I really focus on the other person."
I said, Ummm...those "people" are YOUR CHILDREN...lol
I think as I unravel it I'm feeling guilty for not wanting to stick around...and I do know it's okay to make that call. But my gut says to run now. I just know he'll be so sad. Why does that matter so much when I've been sad for months? Good question.
Anyway, I wish I had posted more along the way. We tend to have a lot of examples of angry or abusive drinkers and less from quiet complacent submissive "good little boys" who mess up. That makes it more confusing for me.
He IS different in that he did quit drinking six months ago, and he's a kind person in many ways. He's NOT different in that as along as I'm around he'll be able to avoid responsibility, and he repeatedly chooses it--which isn't very kind to me.
He actually said, in response to why he didn't call to check in and I had no idea where he was at dinner..."there are always lots of people there and you're busy with them and can't focus on our conversation. I don't find that enjoyable. When I talk on the phone I really focus on the other person."
I said, Ummm...those "people" are YOUR CHILDREN...lol
I think as I unravel it I'm feeling guilty for not wanting to stick around...and I do know it's okay to make that call. But my gut says to run now. I just know he'll be so sad. Why does that matter so much when I've been sad for months? Good question.
Anyway, I wish I had posted more along the way. We tend to have a lot of examples of angry or abusive drinkers and less from quiet complacent submissive "good little boys" who mess up. That makes it more confusing for me.
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There are lots of nice people out there who are alcoholics--it doesn't make it easier to be in a relationship with them. Abusive behavior may be "worse" but over-dependency or just being "checked out" much of the time isn't something most of us signed on for.
People break up for ALL kinds of reasons. And usually the one who didn't initiate the breakup feels sad about it (and, as you are experiencing, even the initiator feels sad about it). The fact that either of you feels sad doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. You will both survive, whether you get back together or not. He'll survive much better, obviously, if he takes advantage of the tools he now has to learn to live like a happy, sober adult.
People break up for ALL kinds of reasons. And usually the one who didn't initiate the breakup feels sad about it (and, as you are experiencing, even the initiator feels sad about it). The fact that either of you feels sad doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. You will both survive, whether you get back together or not. He'll survive much better, obviously, if he takes advantage of the tools he now has to learn to live like a happy, sober adult.
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