meggygoround30

Rant: Unpopular opinion ahead. Sorry if I offend anyone.

I only went to one ALanon meeting and haven't been back. I know it's helped millions and I don't want to put it down because of that. But I was also physically and sexually abused (I think all addicts are emotionally abusive to various degrees) by my alcoholic ex boyfriend. I have been going to a DV support group for a year which has been a lifesaver. The problem I have with ALanon is the belief that we (enablers) are "sicker than the alcoholic and codependent", which to me feels a lot like victim blaming and takes the responsibility off of the alcoholic. I have this opinion because my AXB refuses to believe he is abusive underneath his alcoholism. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for being abusive, it is a choice. At some point the abuser gives themselves a green light to "lose control" and then they blame it on being a victim of their addiction, a victim of bullying, low self esteem etc etc. I'm also reading the book Why Does He Do That which is also a lifesaver and is breaking down every excuse that has gone through my head. I just have a hard time with the codependency label. He was extremely manipulative being an alcoholic on top of an abuser. I understand how I enabled him and by choosing my freedom and safety, I stopped enabling. His family on the other hand will give him whatever he wants because he cries about it and has zero responsibility for anything in his life. I know he will never change. He will never admit to his problems because he is always the victim and the rest of the world is out to get him. *I understand there are plenty of alcoholics out there who are in recovery and working hard at it and that's awesome. I just have no sympathy anymore for people who use addiction as an excuse to get people to feel bad for them like my AXB does. I'm not perfect, believe me. I had low self esteem. I got sucked in. I thought I could fix him. I didn't grow up with abuse or alcoholism. I just think saying the enabler is sicker is dangerous when the addict also has an abusive personality, using power and control in addition to the alcoholic behaviors. He threatened to kill himself numerous times if I left so I stayed for far too long. Now he's doing the same thing to someone else and it will never end.*

Sorry. I got really tired of feeling bad for HIM when I suffered so much and he doesn't give a damn.*

PS. If you like Buddhism you should check out Noah Levine. He wrote a good book called Dharma Punx about getting sober through meditation and it's pretty fascinating. He has a new one out called Refuge Recovery which I haven't read yet. I know I don't sound very compassionate right now, I really am. I'm just trying to find a balance between trying to feel strong in my decision to leave and not letting myself get sucked into guilt.*

Honshine

>_> I've never been to an alanon meeting ever. I just read. Everything.
I agree with what you said about how "we are sicker than them" though. HOWEVER!!!! I also think it's kinda case by case. Because I've seeeeen some codependents (family members of my A) do insaaaane ****. More so if not crazier than him. So I think it may apply. Just not to everyone. But that's just me.

Stung

I don't know. I've never really seen those words as competitive like "I'm sicker than you are!" However, I know my sponsor really hates the term "double winner" because she doesn't like that alcoholics refer to themselves as "winners" to begin with. Whatever. Personally, I think it's focusing on the wrong aspects.

I think LilAmy has said before that generally the people that 12 step programs jive with the least are people who aren't desperate, yet. By the time I was humble enough to get into al-anon I was desperate. I was angry and exhausted and oh so lost. I wasn't focusing on the details of the opening or the closing of the meeting, I was looking at the bigger picture, a whole room filled with women who knew the pain and anger and guilt that I was feeling. I was no longer alone. These people wanted to talk openly with me about what I was going through without judging me. AND they understood and had similar experiences. Big sigh of relief. Whether my husband is sicker than me or vice versa, who cares. We both have dysfunctional issues.

Honshine

^ I like her response better lol

meggygoround30

Thanks for your viewpoints. I feel like the DV support group and individual therapy is fine for me, but sometimes I do wish I had something specific for the crazy spiral of living with an alcoholic. I read a lot of articles, books, blogs and opinion pieces to get different viewpoints in the meantime. A lot of people I've come across online and a few in person have used the "sicker than the alcoholic" line and it really bothers me because just like if I had known he was abusive, I wouldn't have dated him if I knew he was an alcoholic either. I get that it's a disease but if you're putting another's life in danger everyday by getting very violent and you don't do anything to get help for the safety of all involved, I have a big problem with that.

Stung

To be fair, I think it is important to differentiate between sexual and physical abuse and alcoholism. Those are two completely different issues. I'm glad you are getting help from sources that are best for you. Individual therapy has been the biggest help for me, al-anon is just another helpful resource like SR is.

shinebright7

I get where you're coming from and I'm sorry to hear that you've been through so much. Any one of those things is hard enough to deal with on its own....when they come together, it can really feel like a nightmare beyond imagination. ((((hugs))))

My abuse happened when I was younger with my addict dad. He gambled compulsively and had (undiagnosed) bipolar mood swings. When our family split up because the abuse came to the surface, he went on to get into heavy drugs for some time. An addict is an addict.

Personally, when I hear the "we're sicker than they are," I take it as: I've been severely, severely injured and damaged by being in the vicinity of the addict and I need massive amounts of healing.

The addict needs healing, too, but personally I don't take it as I'm the sickest one based on the extent of my enabling.

Enabling is only a symptom of my being severely impacted by being around a sick addict...for me, since childhood. And now, being with my addict husband, I have been retriggered into staggering amounts of enabling that have left me feeling completely depleted, often crazy, and definitely with an unmanageable life.

In most of the meetings I go to, if not all, they say "Take what you like and leave the rest."
It's not always easy, but like Stung said, I was desperate when I wound up in Al Anon, so I did my best to sift through for the nuggets of hope that I could grab on to - the stuff that seemed like I could use it somehow. I needed something to hang onto, so I kept going and I kept listening and I kept sharing.

It takes A LOT of courage to stand up for ourselves and choose US when we have experienced manipulation by an addict. Even more when abuse is involved.

It's GREAT that you're here. And I'm glad to hear the DV group is giving you tons of support. You don't have to go to another Al-Anon meeting ever if you don't want to. And if you ever feel like you're up for it again, they'll be there like an underground support system holding up so many of the men and women in your town going through very similar issues and pain.

Big hugs and keep taking care of you! <3

schnappi99

I've been going to alanon for a year and I've learned a lot about myself. I personally wouldn't and don't use the "sicker than" proposition, I'm not in a position to judge- yet I have learned a lot about the magnitude of my maladaptive habits, so in that sense I guess I am relative to RAW- I have more & greater addict attributes than she does. I am reminded of descriptions of her father who was an alcoholic. The sense I hear it is that some find they are sicker than the alcoholic, others are sick differently others may not view the issues as sickness at all- but its up to the individual to evaluate themselves if they so chose, not OK to be labelling others.

Personally I identify with the relationship addicts- relationships are where my addictions surface, booze never gave me the fix. The issues that bring people to alanon are diverse and if you'll pardon me saying so, you might be doing yourself a disservice by dismissing it so easily. I know several alanons who suffered a variety of abuse including childhood sexual and they work on their issues with the program, with therapy etc.. My sponsor is a self-avowed double-winner, he has no issues with the term- a fair proporion of my alanon homegroup are double-winners, some triple or more, some don't use the term others do.. To me, its about identification and attraction, not doctrine. Just recently I was listening to an alanon speaker tape, the lady said at first the alanon meeting provided the only quiet & sane place she could be. It took her a while of working the program to start gaining some clarity of mind to start making better choices and responding to the addict more appropriately. Thats been my experience too.

That said, there are many ways to recover- I hope you find a good match. Please don't feel bound to the group.. if it seems like you need to go do something differently then thats the right choice. Maybe say goodbye and take a couple phone #'s with you just in case. Good luck!

freetosmile

I think we could throw around "who is sicker" all damn day if we WANTED to-- but wouldn't we just be detracting from the major point here? Which is "WE ARE ALL SICK".

I think whatever you chose to label yourself with is your own damn business. Some people don't like the word "triggers", some people don't like the term " view alcoholism as a cancer", etc.

Alcoholism and co-dependency have so many "terms" and other tags that go along with them. I think that whatever helps you recover, just use it and good on ya!

TonightTonight

Hi Meggygoround (ha, I like your name!). Thank you for your honest share. I'm so sorry for what you've gone through. I too have experienced physical abuse at the hands of my AH, and though I see how quickly alcohol escalates arguments (and it is known that it lowers inhibitions) I came to understand that the abuse was separate from the drinking. For years I exhausted myself trying to "fix" him, I had such low self-esteem and felt like it was my fault. I learned a lot about myself going to meetings and met so many others who felt the same way. Though our circumstances may have been different (and ages, genders) I felt like i heard myself in so many of the members' shares.

There is a really important saying in Al Anon: "Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable." The literature also points out that if anyone is experiencing violence that keeping themselves safe is a priority, and that because we don't have power over someone else or their choices, because we can't make them change or get help, and we can't make them even *want* to change, we must be the one who changes, however that may be. For me, that meant continuing to go to Al Anon, and take care of myself in varying ways. One important way was by relieving myself of the burden of trying both to stop him from drinking/fix him and "prevent" the abuse by walking on eggshells and tip-toeing around; by learning about boundaries, what mine are and how to enforce them. It's good that you have a problem that he won't do anything about it, so the question is what will you do about it?

NWGRITS

DV victims need DV support, not Al-Anon. That's been brought up a lot here by older, more knowledgeable members. Not that you couldn't benefit from Al-Anon later down the road, but a lot of the techniques expressed there can put a DV victim in even more danger. It's a unique circumstance that Al-Anon can't address without thoroughly confusing people (who are already confused enough). FWIW, I've never heard anyone in my meeting say that we are sicker than the A, and we would never excuse an A's behavior. Are we sick? Yes. We are as sick as the A when we are actively enmeshed and enabling them. We are as sick as our secrets. But it's never been expressed by anyone in any meeting I've been to that we're worse. So I think someone might be stretching or misinterpreting it a bit. Anyway, stick with the DV counseling for a while longer. There's a time and a place for people in Al-Anon. I really don't think you're there yet.

freetosmile

I happen to like going to BOTH meetings because my AH is an abuser when he's sober too. I will use my al-anon tactics when he's sober and use my DV support when he's drunk.

It's a good combo and they both offer sooo much

Hangnbyathread

Don't feel bad for how you feel. We all don't heal the same. I didn't find Al-Anon to be of much help in the big picture of me but I did find it helpful as a place to realize a few things.

I learned we are not as alone as we think. I learned that there are different paths to recovery. I learned that there are many far worse than me. I learned that it is one of the few places to go where you can just relax and let yourself "feel" and not worry about how your AC is going to react about your feelings.

Take what you can use and leave the rest.

LexieCat

I don't know that you can really judge the Al-Anon program based on one meeting, but that's OK. I'm glad you are getting helpful support for the abuse aspect of your relationship. Al-Anon is especially helpful in dealing with non-abusive relationships, where the alcohol is the primary issue affecting people. Some of the suggestions in Al-Anon are not appropriate when you are dealing with a dangerous abuser, so as mentioned above, if you find some of it helpful, take what you like and leave the rest. Leave it all, if you find it unhelpful in your situation.

Hugs,

Florence

I'm also a sexual assault survivor and was pretty entrenched in feminist theory for a long while, so I'm very familiar with the idea of victim-blaming and -shaming. I never attended Al-Anon. I used SR heavily and went to long-term therapy, a mixture of psychotherapy and behavioral therapy and PTSD treatment, and these things, I think, are what pulled me out of the darkness. I was resistant to the idea of codependency for a long time, but today I feel like I understand it and identify with it and it's just another tool in my toolbox for understanding my life.

To me, the idea of "codependency" is a label like any other. It's a frame of thinking, a category.

On the usefulness of labels and categories: My mother and one of my exes hit all the major bullet points for narcissistic personality disorder. Neither of them have been properly diagnosed by a doctor, but I call them NPD just the same, because it works for me to understand how to interact with them and be around them when I have to. Point being, it works for me to categorize them this way, and it's led to me being more compassionate, less reactive, AND having better boundaries around their insanity.

For me, if you removed my rapist, my emotionally deregulated parents, and look at me and my choices, I have a pattern of choosing to be with messed up and immature men, sabotaging healthy relationships and opportunities, controlling behavior, heavy anxiety, and hair-trigger temper. I grew up making a lot of bad and compromised choices, and wasn't able to see the range of options available to me in my life, and how a few major incidents (my rape, being blamed for my rape as a child) resulted in a complicated pattern of codependency and low-self-esteem and enmeshment with my parents that I still struggle to get out of today, twenty years later. These same patterns of my thinking and decision making led me into abusive relationships with the two fathers of my children. All that said, taking stock of my issues doesn't erase how I got here, but it does empower me to change these things since they're 100% under my control. I can't go back and deal with my rapist, I know from experience that my parents aren't interested in reconciling the past, but GOING FORWARD I do have power over my choices in my world. I can choose who I have a relationship with and how I live. I can walk away from bad relationships. I can mitigate the bad relationships I can't just walk away from.

To me, the "sicker than the alcoholic" language is about how active addicts are usually messed up users, but there are some of us that think that's worth hanging on to. I've been with drug dealers, alcoholics, abusers, and even one guy who turned out to be a murderer. If you looked at me, you'd never in your life guess what insane relationships I've been in. Against all odds and consequences, something broken in us likes THAT guy. Even now! Certain guys I meet are like catnip, and I know I have to back the hell off. To me, it is indeed pretty sick, and girl, I've been there.

I'm lucky that today I'm in a good relationship with someone who is familiar with recovery language, and that I allow myself the time and space to let this relationship unfold without controlling, forcing, or worrying over the future.

As they say, take what you want, and leave the rest. Do what works for you.

LexieCat

Incidentally, Al-Anon doesn't use the term "co-dependent." And the phrase "sicker than the alcoholic" is qualified by the phrase, "in many cases."

As an alcoholic who is sober for six years now, I know I felt much more INSANE when I was in my relationships with alcoholics than I did when my own drinking took off.

Katiekate

I was sick for sure, sicker than my axbf, not a chance.

shil2587

Feels a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water. One word in one phrase and that's it? Alanon has coping strategies, assertiveness training, self validation, victim support and understanding people. You don't have to like or agree with the word sicker, I know I don't either, but there is so much more. Even if you just read the literature, trust me, it's an absolute, genuine life changer.

Refiner

TBH, I would also have a hard time with this. I have a really hard time thinking that it's all a disease and is totally out of the A's hands, too. There is a thing called willpower.

lillamy

Agree. One hundred percent.
My former therapist used to counsel couples where there had been domestic violence but where the couple wanted to try to work through it and stay together. (I know I've told this story before but it's a good one so I'm telling it again...)

One guy said to her, "I just get so angry that I lose it, and I have no control over what I'm doing."
Therapist said, "So, what you're saying is -- even if there were six cops standing around you with guns pointed at your head, you would still hit your wife?"
Guy said, "Of course not. I'm not crazy."
Therapist said, "So then you DO have control over your actions..."

I can sort of see where you can interpret Al-Anon's "we are sick too" as victim blaming. I didn't. But I think it may also depend on where you're "at" mentally and what issues you attack first. I didn't even admit that my ex was sexually abusive until a few years after leaving. So I walked into Al-Anon with ALCOHOL ABUSE being the biggest issue I was aware of.

I think to me, it's a bit like... I'm overweight. If I wanted to focus on weight loss, I would focus on what I needed to do to lose weight -- not what my husband needed to do, even if he needed to lose weight more than I did. That's what Al-Anon was to me. It was an opportunity to say, "FORGET about that dude for an hour here -- he occupies way too much time in your mind already: This hour is for YOU. What can YOU do to love yourself more, feel healthier, be happier with YOU?"

But like I said -- I can see where you balk at the idea of being called "sick" when your alcoholic marriage was abusive. I wonder if you could view it this way:

Your ex was an alcoholic. His drinking, and the behaviors connected to his alcoholism made you sick. It's not your "fault" any more than it would be your fault if he pushed you down the stairs and you broke your leg. To me, Al-Anon isn't about assigning blame -- it's about "well, my leg is broken and I need that taken care of."

I think that's sort of how I view it...