Todzilla

Those of you who've followed my previous posts know the drill: RAW 8 years sober, increasingly controlling, emotionally narcissistic, angry and cruel outbursts, threats of divorce... Meanwhile, I've been working in Al Anon and Buddhism to get much more detachment to the decaying situation.

Last night, she went off on our almost 17 year old daughter (her only child, my third). Teen is a good student, socially engaged, dabbles in pot smoking, which we're not crazy about, but we can't make all her choices for her.

RAW went ballistic on daughter, saying a fifteen minute litany of hateful hurtful things, ultimately culminating in teenager leaving, saying "I don't feel safe in this house." (I don't blame her) It was pretty much an identical display to what RAW has been doing to me over the past couple years. I remained largely silent as this played out, other than to physically get between them at a climatic point.


RAW was unrepentant for the rest of the night, rationalizing her behavior through the lens of her own pain and talking all about how our teenager abuses her. Don't get me wrong, our teen knows how to push our buttons (that's part of their job description), but I feel it's our job to remain calm while that occurs, rather than use it as a rationalization to say hurtful things.

Today, daughter was home briefly, then left just as she saw Mom (RAW) arrive. RAW sat down and asked me to tell her what was really on my mind, advice or anything I could share. This is typically how she traps me - looking for candor that she can then use to start a fight.

For some reason, I went for it, albeit calmly. I told her she behaved out of anger and obviously was trying to hurt her daughter through hateful, hurtful words. I told her that she often uses her anger to justify any behavior and that in her increasingly common state of anguish, her feelings completely trump everyone elses' and she has a whole set of rationalization tools to convince herself it was all about her being wronged. I told her she and I may not last, but she was on the verge of losing her daughter as well.

I told her all the things I've been trying for months to avoid saying - that she needed to take responsibility for her behavior, that she was sabotaging her family, that she is saying all the things to our daughter for which she struggles to forgive her own mother, even now.

I told her it was obvious she is in enormous pain, despite her outward denial. I told her that she was not in good shape. I told her I wish I could help her, but that there was nothing I could do. I told her I was trying to deal with her bottomless rage, resentment and projection but that I wouldn't accept this behavior toward our daughter, that if there had to be a target, she shoud direct it at me.

I never raised my voice, but spoke passionately. I tried to speak out of love and not anger, but it's a tricky path to traverse.

She sat catatonic, occasionally thanking me for my honesty. She sat still, in shock for a good 30 minutes and then left for her (our) bedroom.

Looks like daughter is going to stay at a friend's house again tonight. I don't know what happens next.

Hammer

Wow. Was one thing when you would not take care of you.

Personally, I get that. Not a good thing, but been there, done that. I get it.

Quite another thing when you do not take care of the kid.

WTF is up with that?

Like I say, been there done that.

Long version is here >>>

(I am "somewhere" on that site. Short for Somewhere over the rainbow)

How to 'detach' and set boundaries if they won't let us?

=========

Key point of that thread is this . . .

--------------

Hammer

Need a hint?

Kick the wife out, invite the daughter home?

LemonGirl

OH MAN... Todzilla, I can relate... My youngest daugher's dad is an ex narcotic addict? forgive me for not knowing the correct accronym for this site. Anyway... He did the drug for 2 1/2 years behind my back... or was it 3...? and finally got off it. I thought, at first, that all the rage and anger issues would subside. But they never did. He just got even more moody and mean and emotionally and mentally abusive. I eventually left him after 5 years of this relationship, but he STILL has not dealt with his issues. Instead, he is now married to another woman, having yet a third child, and they fight like cats and dogs! And it is all in front of my children (currently trying to figure out what I have to file with the courts in order to protect my kids; he is a master mind at manipulating things and so I am up against a wall with this!).
My feeling is that if he actually dealt with himself, he would not be so cruel and out of control with his anger. But no matter how I tried to present that to him, calmly, or ignoring, or yelling, or pointing out facts such as his kids not wanting to come visit, it has all been turned around on me and it is still very much like he is an addict in denial and I am to blame.
I hope that for your sake that at least this wonderful and tactful conversation you had with her can be the start of moving in a new direction.

My ex never took that chance; the minute I chose to stop enabling him was the minute he made me his enemy and has made my life a living hell ever since...

lillamy

So Toddzilla -- I read Hammer's post and felt like I had gotten punched in the gut. (No offense Hammerman, you know I love your straight shooting style!)

I've been there. I've been there and stood silently by while AXH belittled and screamed at one of our kids. I'm still working on forgiving myself for that, and it's not going so well.

But I wanted you to know that I've been there. I've been that parent who didn't protect my kid when I could have. I'm done hating myself and beating myself up for it. If actions have consequences (and they do), I'm dealing with them now -- living a very tight financial life because I owe more money than I care to admit to doctors, treatment facilities, and therapists who are trying to help my kids get some order into the chaos that is their internal life.

Yeah, it's a ****** thing to do and you're not the only one who's done it.

And it sounds to me like YOU hit some kind of "enough already" point that night. It sounds like the talk you had with your AW was a come to Jesus moment that's going to be her opportunity to get serious about RECOVERY -- not just sobriety -- or get out.

You don't deserve this. Your daughter definitely doesn't deserve it. But you know, her reaction was kind of healthy: She ran. One of mine did that, too. I'm glad your daughter came back and talked to you. I totally get that she doesn't want to be around her mother.

One of my turning points was when my kid (who was 16 or so) said to me "How much are you going to put up with?" Somehow, that gave me the permission to stop pretending that it was virtuous to keep the family together. That gave me the insight I had missed -- that the kids were suffering.

I hope your daughter never has to experience that again. I hope you won't let that happen again. And I'm not saying that to chastise you. I'm saying it because I let it happen many times, and the kids? The kids aren't alright. I'm not sure they'll ever be. And I don't want anyone else to deal with the hell it is to see your kids struggle with issues you know you're part of causing for them. That's the absolutely worst part of my life, hands down.

Lots of hugs to you. I hope you can find a way to not have to be the object of so much abuse. Because it IS abuse. Even if she doesn't hit. I think your analysis was spot on -- nobody's feelings matter but hers. That's still the King Baby Alcoholic speaking. I don't care how much she doesn't drink. The behavior is still there.

schnappi99

tz, its not OK for you to offer yourself as a target.

I think its time for a boundary, something like "I cannot allow myself or our daughter to be the target of anger such as you displayed last night, if it happens again either you have to leave or she and I will". That has to be fully public between the 3 of you and you'd better be ready & willing to act. Do not argue, justify, defend or explain- this is you asserting you & your daughter's basic human rights.

I note a lot of details about her and her pain and not a lot about you and your daughter's. In effect you sound very engaged to your wife's drama; your buttons are being pushed & you are reacting and you seem to be spending a lot of effort understanding her emotional dynamics (or thinking you are). Good on you for not blowing up on her.. and I mean that! But you are unlikely to succeed in arguing her back to a more civil frame of mind; facts etc no matter how well supported by your perceptions won't make it- and there is always the possibility you're misunderstanding something.

redatlanta

Lillamy, very powerful.

Thing of it is I agree with the phrase "I hope you won't let it happen again" - in truth there is only one move to make to make sure it doesn't happen again. You cannot control your wife, and you cannot be everywhere at all times.

Perhaps its time for mom to move out and get the help she needs to deal with her real or imagined persecution - or not, just get out. No child should be afraid of their parent.

I have been involved with some folks in life who grew up in abusive households - some physical, some verbal or emotional and some a combination of both. In all circumstances one parent was the abuser and the other parent not. With some, not all, anger toward the unabusive parent was equal to or greater than the abuser. Rational being the unabusive parent left the children in an environment that was unhealthy and scary. I have also seen folks forgive the abuser easier than the non-abuser because the abuser was "sick" or "mental" or had been "abused themselves". No excuses for the one who stayed (though as an adult I understand the phenomena more and why it happens, I did not when I when I was younger).

Lillamy makes such a powerful point here about how this can effect a child for a lifetime. My husband grew up in an abusive environment and I tell you that is FACT. At 51 he is still f****d up over it. Still angry over the incessant fighting and mental abuse. Still angry over things said 40 years ago. Mostly he is angry and bitter that he had to endure it and had no choice. If he really gets on a roll about it he will just ask "why why why"? I have no answers for that. I can give a perspective as to what I think was really going on, but that seems to just fuel his fire more. I believe he could move beyond it with some intense therapy, but he is too busy still trying to get approval from his father (which will never happen not even on his death bed), and trying to get mom to admit the children were persecuted (which will also never happen because she has never done anything wrong in her life, and it is she who is the victim). If they had divorced, if they would divorce NOW I think things would be better. Individually I love them both, together they are a nightmare. Sigh.

Anyways - I am sorry you are going through this. I applaud you for what you said.

Todzilla

Thanks for the support and responses, folks!

I have to explore my own behavior through all of this. Did I allow my RAW's tirade so as to have someone else in my camp? That's pretty messed up.

In my defense, I entered into the fray pretty late in the whole mess, but I do worry that I should have done more during the heat. On the other hand, this may be the crucible in which positive change (which could be many outcomes) occurs.

Hawkeye13

I was one of the kids who got that awful rage. My brother got it for years
and ran to Australia. I kept getting it.

Pretty much ruined any happiness or chance at a "normal" life for me.
I had so much anger, mistrust, and fear I could not / can not have a
truly healthy intimate relationship.

This is nothing to intellectualize about Tod--protect your daughter.

Take action, don't wait to see what happens.

hopeful4

Until she gets mental help that is not going to change. If there is any change it will have to come from you. Your DD is already showing she does not feel safe and refuses to immerse herself into that situation. Why should she be the one to leave????

For the months leading up to when I kicked my X out, one of the things I did was shut down his drama. If he opened his mouth with any sort of unkind words or would show any rage, I would either leave with the kids, or if possible make him leave. That changed things quite a bit in that it did show him that we were not going to listen to what came spewing out of his toxic mouth. I did (and still do) the same on the phone. If he has to act like an a$$ that's fine, but I don't have to listen. Click and hang up.

I walked on eggshells for so long around my XAH that it was changing me into someone I don't want to be. I could see myself having that rage at times. I could see how unhappy I was and it was changing me as a person. Best thing I did about that was to get help from a psychiatrist who specializes in helping families who deal with addiction.

Point being, don't put your eggs in one basket. Just b/c she allowed you to have your say does not mean a thing will change. It takes work, and help. It only changes if she is willing to do both over the long term.

dandylion

Todzilla.....from what I read in your post...it looks, to me, like your wife's psychological dysfunctions run very deep. Doesn't sound like just alcoholism.

dandylion

CodeJob

Know much about narcissistic mothers and how they go after their daughters - especially when they get older and start being viewed as THE COMPETITION?

You are not really dealing with alcoholism here IMO.

Hawkeye13

This is so true.

I had to leave my house at 17--same age as your daughter.

I wasn't just angry, by the way, at her, but at those adults around me
that knew about her abuse and did nothing meaningful to help me.
You may have more at stake here then you realize Tod.

It isn't easy, and I appreciate you are trying to give your wife every chance to change,
but a young woman is so emotionally vulnerable, and when their own mother attacks them without "rules" it can deal a crippling blow to developing self-esteem.

I wish you strength and please know I am only sharing my posts to support, not judge you.

MissFixit

Tod,

I am decades older than your daughter and today (LITERALLY, TODAY) I am forced to deal with an abusive parent and it is extremely hurtful. BTW, I am dealing with him by having to tell him again why I refuse to see him. This is after months of detachment and him now threatening to show up on my doorstep if I do not respond. Mine is not even an A, just an abusive bully.

Please put your daughter ahead of her abusive parent.

Florence

The daughter shouldn't be the one that has to figure it out. The mom is the adult, period. If she's picking fights with everyone else, it's on her to find a way to manage peace in her life, one that isn't dependent on her teen daughter's homelessness.

Tod, sometimes intellectualizing a situation is another way of avoiding it. You can take action and also look at your role in the situation at the same time -- these things are not mutually exclusive. Even better for YOUR peace of mind if you know your teenager is safe and not feeling abandoned by her dysfunctional mom and the dad that enables the dysfunction.

lillamy

Funny I didn't think of that. That's my go-to solution to avoid feeling the feelings of a situation. I can analyze the heck out of anything if it helps me avoid pain...

Florence

Me too. Takes one to know one.

GracieLou

Guilty as well!

It sounds a LOT like NPD.

They never take blame, they justify and rationalize everything and anything they have ever done, are doing or may do in the future.

I felt the same way you did when I told my mother she had to move out. I was calm, like Xanax calm without the actual Xanax. She was fairly quiet compared to what I have dealt with in the past. I knew it was to good to be true.

Took her two days to gather every weapon, excuse, justification, blame, resentment, anger and flat out hate until she came back to me with everything she could find to use against me.

I still made her move because all of it was moot at that point. I needed her out of my life. I have not regretted the decision even once. Every second I was a way from her I was healing.

Please get your daughter away from her or her away from your daughter. As a daughter of an NPD mother, it will take years for me to heal from the emotional abuse. It has effected me and everyone of my relationships even up to the last one. I am 46 years old.

Take steps as ASAP. This is not alcoholism I am hearing, it is NPD or BPD. Something else is going on here.

MissFixit

This.

In my 30's I finally started to dissect why I dated unhealthy men (after fallout from the A relationship that led me to this site years ago). In a nutshell, I grew up with this stuff and felt comfortable with it/thought it was normal. Never realized that was what I was doing until after the fact.

If I could stop or lessen the damage from another girl having that experience, I would do so in a heartbeat.

NYCDoglvr

I feel so sorry for your daughter and I hope you can work this out.