lillamy

Meg, I have found that forgiving the A in my life was much easier than forgiving myself.
In a way, that also shows how I thought about him, and about me: He was a weak person that I didn't see as an equal. I -- now that's another story -- I should have known better. I should have continued to be the strong independent woman I was, who broke up with guys who were rude to waiters or who had no ambition; I should have been able to see what I had gotten myself into and run for life...

... and I've had a hard time forgiving myself for not doing that.

But I've decided to forgive myself anyway. I know why I fell for AXH. He came along at a time in my life when I was at an all-time low and he said all the right things. And I ignored the red flags because I wanted this to be IT.

I don't think that an insight like the one you had when you were 30 goes away. I think that maybe the hubris of thinking we can always live on the high of that insight can get batted around a bit by life. But that insight, that strength -- I bet you still have it. I bet you'll be able to find it again.

Hangnbyathread

Maybe this will help you. I also am very independent and Non Co dependent. I don't let many people near me as in my inner circle in my life. I often look back on how I allowed myself to become involved with an AH. I'm smart, intuitive etc. Here is what I will credit to the AA, Al-Anon and places like this.

EDUCATION!!!!!

I thought I knew what an AH was before I met my XAGF. I only know part of it. I only knew the one that wreaked it from their pores, drank as their only pass time, hung out in bars, etc. What I didn't realize is how it can affect some, what they are capable of becoming when under the influence. How they are master manipulators, control freaks, and as smart about being able to continue drinking as I was in looking for it. They get years of practice and we are ignorant and naive to Alcoholism when we meet them.

My XAGF is highly intelligent. That was actually an attraction at first. Then you realize that that exact intelligence, when combined with the addiction of alcohol makes you a very miserable person trying to figure out what is going on that doesn't add up in your gut. If they are smart, they can come up with more ways to avoid looking at the alcohol being something you even look at, than you can ever dream up from your place in the picture. They use our trust for them to perpetuate their behavior and they do not look at right and wrong from the same place we do. As long as they get to keep doing what they are doing, you will become secondary to alcohol, and the life it creates for them. If that bothers you, which it did me, they either seek to change this, or they will be enjoying their life alone, or rather, without me. In my case I learned that my XAGF, could ALWAYS find someone to go drinking with.

meggem

thanks hopeful....

LR - that was really good food for thought.

meggem

GREAT replies guys I will be reading and re-reading them... I love everyones insight...thank you... I hope the replies keep coming in!

meggem

hanginbyathread - how did you piece that all together? That was really good...I'm not sure I have read anything like that before. Reading that made me feel more like a victim instead of a complete idiot..

dandylion

meggem....the book that I suggested addresses much of what you are talking about.

dandylion

meggem

The saber toothed tiger? I will get it. I'm going on amazon on lunch and getting it..

atalose

It’s pointless trying to figure them out. I did that for a long time – it kept me from having to look at myself because after all I wasn’t the one with the problem – or so I first thought. It truly was a big waste of my time. It’s not like I was going to discover the cure for addiction yet somehow I had convinced myself I was going too. THEN WE could have a happy life.

Once I accept I couldn’t cure him, I gave some serious thoughts to me and my own behaviors and relationships. I pretty much picked the exact same type man (emotionally unavailable) over and over again. Of course they all came in different packages so seeing that didn’t come easily. I also needed to learn what healthy behavior vs un-healthy truly looked like. Sure the obvious was easy physical abuse I would never ever tolerate but it was in all the emotional abuse, the come here go away push pull of un-healthy relationships that I needed the most work in.

It’s a process not a destination, we grow at our own pace and understand things as we are ready to.

I’ve been out of my bad relationship for over a 1 ½ years and rather enjoy myself and being alone. I’m not afraid to date or make room in my life for a relationship should that happen but I am not pursuing that or feeling the need to.

I continue to attend al-anon, I continue to read and sometimes post here and the best thing in life is I am truly happy with myself, worked hard to get to this place of serenity and will work harder to keep it.

Keep on the course you are traveling with counseling and posting here and just allow what new things you discover to take hold and know that you don’t need all the answers today or tomorrow and some answers may never come at all and that is ok.

dandylion

meggem....it is a relative short book...and, very easy to read.

dandylion

Hangnbyathread

We were both......a victim and an idiot!!!!! We just didn't know it for awhile. For me I had been single, happily single for awhile. I finally decided to open my heart and let someone in. And in so doing, you do so with trust. I grew up in a traditionally nuclear family and my sense of right and wrong, truth vs lie etc are not something that requires much in the way of vast differences of opinion. I didn't have any real dysfunctions that caused me to align myself in any moral dilemmas by and large.

So for instance if someone tells me they are working late at work and won't be home til later, that is what you believe. No reason to 2nd guess it. I don't dwell on it or think about it. It is taken at face value. I don't or won't expend energy thinking anything else about it. No need to. When it comes to relationships, I am very laid back non control type of person. We both be what we are with each other. We either like each other or we won't.

So if my partner needs to work late, say 10 times a month, OK that's the way it is. I have a life that is rich in my time I have with me. I won't check up on, question, or give it a second thought.

So using this example, the alcoholic, uses the I'm going to be late at work and won't be home, as the cover to go drinking. And since we don't think like they do, they know that we are stupid (not meant as literally but stupid as what they are up to).

Now comes my 1st clue something was up. Now I was the one that had to work late and won't be home til later. This gets met with a barrage of questions by my g/f, all of which I answer willingly. And that gets put to rest. I chalk it up to we are just different in this way and again I don't expend huge energy on it. It would just be wasted trying to figure out why you should 2nd guess. So it wasn't a huge red flag but this where my stupidity comes into play. I know now that from the start we are are never operating by the same rules with one another. We just assume that we don't need to discuss if our rules are different. To an AC, when you do something that they are doing that is underhanded, you become underhanded. Not because you are, but because they project that you must be, because they are.

Clue No. 2. Frank I am having a problem with a guy at work pressing me for sexual advances. It is making me uncomfortable and I don't know how to handle it. OK...and I listen to the "story". I offer my guidance as both a partner and a professional that has faced this in the workplace. Her words, to which I wholeheartedly agree. "It is uncomfortable working in a hostile workplace. If I make a deal out of it, I don't want to be labelled as a troublemaker." And I soak it in like a sponge. Give her as much advice as I can and show her I am concerned. No where in this is alcohol even a concept here. That's because I am again operating under the "stupid" rules.

Then you find out that Clue No. 1 and Clue No. 2 are related. You find out because you are asked to hand her her phone and in so doing you see 3 missed calls from the same guy at work that she is complaining about. Calls made all after hours. You ask a simple, is this the same guy you were telling me about, and get met with the wrath of fury for looking at her phone. The RedFlags now start to tell you the gut has a feeling here. But again alcohol isn't even in my scope of thoughts. I just knew something here wasn't right.

But that is how I found out that Clue No. 1 and Clue No. 2 add up to Clue No. 3. You find out this is all about drinking. She would drink before meeting him, so that she could tolerate drinking with him, so they could drink together and have a cover for both parties to take home to their perspective households. In my case clue No. 3 did not become evident for 2 years because I simply didn't ask someone I trusted a bunch of questions that made them think "How could you not trust your partner?" I simply treated her with the same standard I wished to be treated by. I know I wouldn't want to live in a relationship where every time I wasn't there, I had to explain what I was doing elsewhere. Working late has no double meaning if we all have the same concept of truth and trust. She had her story to explain it all and while you don't forget, you do forgive. This is where you fail yourself with an AC. You will become the stupid victim, simply because they need us to be in order to continue.

Once this got discovered, is where her intelligence took over. She made sure she covered her tracks better. Made much more elaborate excuses. I have to go to a funeral of a co-worker who lost her baby. Man you hear that and you don't dare question that type of event. Instead you offer her condolences and how this must be a tough time. The reality of that was, yes there was a worker that lost her baby, so there was proof that happened. But in reality my XAGF never went to funeral and didn't even know the worker. She just took the published information as a way to cover her tracks, should I poke around again. The next one was, a manager at work has cancer and is in the hospital and we are all going to go there to be by his bedside at the hospital. By now you know how this will turn out but again this is where they prey on us. I wasn't going to expend energy trying to figure out what she was up to. She was going to do what she is going to do.

And that lesson is one that should guide you no matter what. Be it AC, or anything. A person is going to do what they are going to do. You can attempt to direct it to go a different way, and you may for a time. But if they want something with enough interest, they are going to figure out how to do it or get it or have it, whether you like it or not.

Knowing this will help to keep you from being a stupid victim as often in your life.

Trust me now that I understand that she is an AC, it ALL makes sense now. But during the time it is happening, all you can think about is, we must have a lack of communication etc. The AC will ALWAYS make you the reason why something happened that you didn't like.

meggem

I can relate to so many things you are saying.. And I know what you mean by saying "because we are stupid" - But we aren't - We are kind of regular people that don't really think much of things, like you said..

So when all of these things kept coming up (mine had all kinds of huge life upsets that would interfere with his quality of life, per him.. it was really A- never considered drinking one of them, unless he was DESPERATE to get me back on board, he would admit drinking was a problem - he knew that would really get my attention) that would last a few days and then he would have the nerve to fight for the alcohol again..

I kept thinking - well, ok he has sleep apnea, that would definitely make someone irritible, short tempered, I mean he's tired..

Well, ok he is really unhappy at his job, well that happens..

Well, ok he is......

Well his parents really did betray him I mean can you just imagine??

and then this....
then that...
then there was this...

It just went on and on and all of these life happenings.trials and tribulations were always that cause of his rage and drinking and violence and depression...

and because I was a stupid person (that actually feels like a compliment) I found it to be reasonable...

from reading your story I am more able to see that he is a master manipulator and it really truly isn't about me I was just stupid in a good way.



And I too always got questioned and accused of things that when turned around I wouldn't give much thought too either.

Thanks

Hangnbyathread

Yes we are regular well adjusted people who don't spend time mentally trying to process between the lines. We have no grasp of the measures they will go through to continue to carry on as they need to. To an AC we are the stupid unsuspecting idiots that they manage to draw in. The rest of the fellow AC's serve one purpose for them. To perpetuate the drinking. Past that they serve no real purpose because they offer nothing of any substance they need.

YOU and I are not the defective ones here. So get off that guilt wagon.

My XAGF would throw ANYONE under the bus to save her skin. In the end their actions will always get them after they lay waste to everything near them they have to. The more layers of insulation they can keep the longer they can continue.

The more I gave her rope, the more she hung herself with. By the time it could no longer be hidden was the time she had burned through every excuse, every reason, every other person, every other thing possible. And at that point, they have the most clarity in their lives they ever will. THEY DID THIS TO THEMSELVES! Until the day comes that they can honestly own that, you nor I nor anything we think is right or wrong will really sink in to them.

SoloMio

At my Al-Anon meetings they would call this paralysis by analysis. I'm guilty.

As for your "how on earth did I get here" question, I've also BTDT. I truly feel it has to do with unfinished business emotionally/spiritually speaking. As for me, I know I am trying desperately to rewrite my FOO (family of origin) script. 40 years later!!

We somehow connect to people--sometimes the right ones, sometimes the wrong ones. It's so weird. I wrote in my journal in 1974, "somehow I think this meeting (with future AH) was meant to be." Maybe it wasn't "meant to be" --maybe we were just attracted like bees to honey with what we were comfortable with. So this wonderfully romantic "we-were-meant-to-be-together" narrative is one way to tell the story and other way is to acknowledge that there are some wounds that are somehow filled via someone else's wound. Two negative=a positive, right? Not really, but that's what seems to happen.

Stop trying to figure it out. The only thing you should try to figure out is what is best for you.

meggem

"By the time it could no longer be hidden was the time she had burned through every excuse, every reason, every other person, every other thing possible"

THIS THIS THIS....

irisgardens

I, too, have mostly been a very logical and rational person...the emotional side is really painful...and I seem to have really taken a long time to 'wake up' and that...mostly with each child (now all adults) as they have used drugs and alcohol.

I am having a hard time this time...because I spent many years on my mother/sister...and getting unenmeshed...while also working on one daughter at a time...and dealing with my drinking husband (letting go and letting God).

However, this time...we have hit a bottom that makes me wonder what is wrong with me for not taking more and better action sooner...and I am having to remind myself that things come up in their own time...and we can only do what we can do...when we can do it...I never really saw the truth about him...because I was so busy 'doing it all' and for God's sake...turning things over...and doing my own work...but I also got chronic recurring depression and the family has determined that I have caused the issues...as they apparently don't remember (& are certainly not taking responsibility for their own 'fun' years--they call it 'teenage acting out'...and have all chosen to step back from the active addict...although we didn't do that with them...and I have gone back to therapy to figure out how to do that...as I do not have adequate support...and I learned that the hard way...now they are bringing up the fact that I don't seem to manage emotions thoroughly (implication with them at 35 (oldest), 32 (next), 28 (third), 22 (4th--in active addiction) & 20 (last)--and I very much feel enmeshed again...as I am being controlled into the behavior they want and father supports them.

I am overwhelmed...but just working my program. I am learning to let go of the past...because I am learning that no one even has the same story...and it was my choice to enable (reading posts) and use up my life savings...and right now just trying to deal with that...and that is it. Glad for my naranon meeting...am trying to work the program as best I can with the tools and resources available to me now...letting the kids not talk to me (they are too busy--so at least I know that goes with the generation) and they really have been pushing all year (in different ways...mostly by not being in contact) to pressure about my relationship with their dad...and although I understand they are anxious...I cannot make up behaviors that I've always had to cajole and be encouraging about...not right now...only the oldest kind of sort of believes she understands and she doesn't...and they definitely are pressuring me to get back to work so that we get out of the money problems. Amazing how the emotional pressure can build up...and I am working hard to just take care of me...even if I don't really know what that is...and don't have a lot of options...still trying.

Hangnbyathread

iris. I too went into treatment for depression. It was before I knew I had an AGF. I just became despondent that this relationship always seemed to be bringing me down for one reason or another. According to my AGF I was the problem. So you hear it enough times and you start to believe it. I won't go into a long response here.

Here is a simple exercise that was a LOT harder than I ever guessed it would be.

Wake up tomorrow. Set one goal for the day. That goal is Do One thing that makes YOU happy. If you fail at that goal for that day, it becomes your next days goal. That took me a week to do.

What you learn is you get so caught up in the life with your AC, that you forget the life you have for yourself. I could easily find 25 things to try and keep my AGF in a good place, she would always be at No. 26 ahead of me.

The term "A Family disease" takes on meaning when you can step back and look from the outside.