Unintentional(or not) enabling blackmail?
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
The book Co-Dependent No More by Melody Beattie is a great place to start to learn about how behavior we think is supporting and helping our addicted/alcoholic loved ones is actually helping them sink deeper into their addictions. Maybe get 2 copies from Amazon and you and your wife compare notes
ShootingStar1
ShootingStar1
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
hi again
i am worried that i am getting out of my depth here, so i am only going to tell you what i have learned from my experience with my exA and from two childhood friends.
all three of the people i am referring to had both the alcoholism diagnosis (through a rehab) and self harm issues.
one childhood friend entered a long term psychiatric facility (over a year) after "getting sober" at a rehab. his father is wealthy and paid for the whole thing. that guy from what i have heard has done well since. he chose a simpler path for his life with much fewer expectations and stimuli and i have always believed was a way for him to manage the life long psych stuff after he left the institution.
other childhood friend with both A and self harm stuff quit drinking and did AA. moved back with his parents and did weekly therapy with my hometown's "best" psychiatrist. he flipped between diagnoses from what i heard. he obviously was struggling (couldn't hold a job, quickly married a basic stranger who later left him with 2 kids) and later killed himself. but never had a drink following his getting sober. the psych stuff (schizophrenia) was his real (bigger?) issue.
my former A did rehab at hanley in west palm beach, fl. he was sober about 2 weeks afterwards but relapsed and hid it for the next 8 months or so. he saw several therapists back home and i can't remember when it happened but got dx with bpd at some point. he REFUSED to accept the psych evaluation and would quit any dr who tried to address it. he continues to drink and his life is not great.
there are lots of alcoholics, but the A and (whatever issue is causing) self harm stuff IMHO changes how the person is dealt with and what helps them. i do not know the answer but once they gain some sobriety, that is when the hard work begins. now she will have to face why she went down that path to begin with. if she does have some mental illness, then addressing that would be the time now that she is sober. no, i don't think you stand outside her therapist's office, but if the dx is scary to her, she might need extra emotional support. 21 is an adult, but it is still pretty young too. certain mental problems surface in women her age and drugs/A is an indicator. the good news is that there is help for the mental stuff but she does need to actually go to the psych for a real dx and treatment plan.
i am entering territory above my pay grade, but there are several members who do know a lot about that stuff. a couple folks can even tell you what worked for them. i hope they speak up...
i am worried that i am getting out of my depth here, so i am only going to tell you what i have learned from my experience with my exA and from two childhood friends.
all three of the people i am referring to had both the alcoholism diagnosis (through a rehab) and self harm issues.
one childhood friend entered a long term psychiatric facility (over a year) after "getting sober" at a rehab. his father is wealthy and paid for the whole thing. that guy from what i have heard has done well since. he chose a simpler path for his life with much fewer expectations and stimuli and i have always believed was a way for him to manage the life long psych stuff after he left the institution.
other childhood friend with both A and self harm stuff quit drinking and did AA. moved back with his parents and did weekly therapy with my hometown's "best" psychiatrist. he flipped between diagnoses from what i heard. he obviously was struggling (couldn't hold a job, quickly married a basic stranger who later left him with 2 kids) and later killed himself. but never had a drink following his getting sober. the psych stuff (schizophrenia) was his real (bigger?) issue.
my former A did rehab at hanley in west palm beach, fl. he was sober about 2 weeks afterwards but relapsed and hid it for the next 8 months or so. he saw several therapists back home and i can't remember when it happened but got dx with bpd at some point. he REFUSED to accept the psych evaluation and would quit any dr who tried to address it. he continues to drink and his life is not great.
there are lots of alcoholics, but the A and (whatever issue is causing) self harm stuff IMHO changes how the person is dealt with and what helps them. i do not know the answer but once they gain some sobriety, that is when the hard work begins. now she will have to face why she went down that path to begin with. if she does have some mental illness, then addressing that would be the time now that she is sober. no, i don't think you stand outside her therapist's office, but if the dx is scary to her, she might need extra emotional support. 21 is an adult, but it is still pretty young too. certain mental problems surface in women her age and drugs/A is an indicator. the good news is that there is help for the mental stuff but she does need to actually go to the psych for a real dx and treatment plan.
i am entering territory above my pay grade, but there are several members who do know a lot about that stuff. a couple folks can even tell you what worked for them. i hope they speak up...
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8
Well they had a big meeting last night and gave her an ultimatum. She could stay in their sober living house if she held a curfew, didn't do the self harm stuff again, saw her therapist like she is supposed to, got a job, and.. (IMHO the BIG one) cut all contact with "boys" and continued total non fraternization with any boys until the therapist and program director agreed it was non intrusive to her program.
She immediately got a crappy attitude initially and tried to tell them that "they were basically going to force her to 'self harm'". But quickly switched her tune to agreeing totally to the conditions and promising she would abide by the new rules.
Her mom offered an alternative to come home and immediately join a local group, go to meetings here, and move into a sober living home, see a therapist, etc, basically all the same stuff but we would be responsible for directly enforcing the rules instead of paying others to do it down there.
I was excused from the room so I don't know what "negotiating" went on but I suspect there was some manipulation and the next I heard she was still coming home for xmas but was going to "check out" the local groups and meetings and decide if she thought she could maintain her sobriety here before she decided what she was doing. If she decided to go back, she would abide by their rules and stay in the same program and sober living facility.
IMHO she just succeeded in deferring the entire situation and still doesn't have to face any repercussions, or at least puts them all off for a few weeks.
I am pretty sure she will want to go back to where it is warm and "fun" and has all the young friends to hang out with in the meetings and such and pay lip service to following the rules. If I was a betting man, I would not bet that she could keep the rule about no contact with boys as she is pretty "boy crazy" and we just found out last night that not only is she not keeping in line with the overall rule of no relationships, she lied to the staff and said she was going to a meeting and spent the day with a guy at his house all day recently. When her mom asked about that she just responded that she wasn't going to talk to her mother about her sex life, overlooking the fact that she isn't supposed to HAVE a sex life of course.
I have opted to remain quiet since she is not my kid and as someone else pointed out, mom will choose her over me if it comes down to that, but I know this is far from over and it is frustrating to me that by the end of this multiple day "crisis" she somehow made it through again with no "If you screw up, THIS is what will happen", mom is once again "hoping for the best, and if she screws up we will figure something out THEN".
Now I get to have this adult child in my house for the next 10 days and act like everything is peachy. If I act anything other than normal, of course I am the one causing problems and can't just drop it and that can lead to stress for HER which of course may trigger her using or self harm.
She doesn't even present an attitude of remorse or humility like she is sorry or thankful to get another chance. (I know this part is MY issue)
Anyways, thanks for the advice and input, it helps reading others experience with this stuff.
She immediately got a crappy attitude initially and tried to tell them that "they were basically going to force her to 'self harm'". But quickly switched her tune to agreeing totally to the conditions and promising she would abide by the new rules.
Her mom offered an alternative to come home and immediately join a local group, go to meetings here, and move into a sober living home, see a therapist, etc, basically all the same stuff but we would be responsible for directly enforcing the rules instead of paying others to do it down there.
I was excused from the room so I don't know what "negotiating" went on but I suspect there was some manipulation and the next I heard she was still coming home for xmas but was going to "check out" the local groups and meetings and decide if she thought she could maintain her sobriety here before she decided what she was doing. If she decided to go back, she would abide by their rules and stay in the same program and sober living facility.
IMHO she just succeeded in deferring the entire situation and still doesn't have to face any repercussions, or at least puts them all off for a few weeks.
I am pretty sure she will want to go back to where it is warm and "fun" and has all the young friends to hang out with in the meetings and such and pay lip service to following the rules. If I was a betting man, I would not bet that she could keep the rule about no contact with boys as she is pretty "boy crazy" and we just found out last night that not only is she not keeping in line with the overall rule of no relationships, she lied to the staff and said she was going to a meeting and spent the day with a guy at his house all day recently. When her mom asked about that she just responded that she wasn't going to talk to her mother about her sex life, overlooking the fact that she isn't supposed to HAVE a sex life of course.
I have opted to remain quiet since she is not my kid and as someone else pointed out, mom will choose her over me if it comes down to that, but I know this is far from over and it is frustrating to me that by the end of this multiple day "crisis" she somehow made it through again with no "If you screw up, THIS is what will happen", mom is once again "hoping for the best, and if she screws up we will figure something out THEN".
Now I get to have this adult child in my house for the next 10 days and act like everything is peachy. If I act anything other than normal, of course I am the one causing problems and can't just drop it and that can lead to stress for HER which of course may trigger her using or self harm.
She doesn't even present an attitude of remorse or humility like she is sorry or thankful to get another chance. (I know this part is MY issue)Anyways, thanks for the advice and input, it helps reading others experience with this stuff.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 695
Oh superdad, I wish I could talk to your wife. Is there anyway you could get her to post on here? Do you think she would listen to another mom whose going through the same thing?
Let me tell you, I can almost guarantee that coming home is going to be a disaster and here are my reasons.
1. Home is her trigger point and she isn't strong enough yet in her recovery to deal with triggers. Her druggie friends are there, her former frustrations are there, her former life is there. I won't be surprised if she is using again before the first night is over. We almost took this same path but for the grace of God, I went to a family support group meeting the night before. Out of the 15 mom's and dad's in attendance- EVERY SINGLE ONE- brought their child home and EVERY SINGLE child relapsed. We decided against it.
2. I have strong reservations about her motives. If I were to guess, she is "going" along with the plan in order to get a ticket home. Once home- she has mom by her side to manipulate. Listen I am NOT knocking your wife. I was at that point too. But she has to change her thinking about this. She is not helping her recover, she is helping her to relapse. She HAS to get tough. I know she doesn't want to. I know she thinks she is loving her child but the person that child is now is not the daughter she loves, she is an addict.
3. Listen, my daughter walked all over me. I will be the first to admit it. She used my love for her and manipulated me to allow her to use. Plain and simple. But that is no more. But I couldn't do it by myself.
4. Do you really want to spend your Christmas policing a 21 year old? Does your wife have other children? If so, what about them? What is it showing them? Let me tell you our son was furious and he had a right to be. Our daughter ruined so many holiday's, I always tried to play the peace maker, and it always ended in disaster.
Please see if you can get your wife to post on here. She can get some perspective about this situation from people who have been through it. Good luck
Let me tell you, I can almost guarantee that coming home is going to be a disaster and here are my reasons.
1. Home is her trigger point and she isn't strong enough yet in her recovery to deal with triggers. Her druggie friends are there, her former frustrations are there, her former life is there. I won't be surprised if she is using again before the first night is over. We almost took this same path but for the grace of God, I went to a family support group meeting the night before. Out of the 15 mom's and dad's in attendance- EVERY SINGLE ONE- brought their child home and EVERY SINGLE child relapsed. We decided against it.
2. I have strong reservations about her motives. If I were to guess, she is "going" along with the plan in order to get a ticket home. Once home- she has mom by her side to manipulate. Listen I am NOT knocking your wife. I was at that point too. But she has to change her thinking about this. She is not helping her recover, she is helping her to relapse. She HAS to get tough. I know she doesn't want to. I know she thinks she is loving her child but the person that child is now is not the daughter she loves, she is an addict.
3. Listen, my daughter walked all over me. I will be the first to admit it. She used my love for her and manipulated me to allow her to use. Plain and simple. But that is no more. But I couldn't do it by myself.
4. Do you really want to spend your Christmas policing a 21 year old? Does your wife have other children? If so, what about them? What is it showing them? Let me tell you our son was furious and he had a right to be. Our daughter ruined so many holiday's, I always tried to play the peace maker, and it always ended in disaster.
Please see if you can get your wife to post on here. She can get some perspective about this situation from people who have been through it. Good luck
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by Superdad454 
Do we leave her there and let her figure out how to fend for herself?
You have been and still are enabling her. S T O P.
She could or you could find a Salvation Army (do they have those where you are?) rehab/ detox and ask them for help. They are a charity. She needs a charity because you are going to stop paying for all her folderol and whimsy. Tattoos fer real? YOU paid for that ****!
She is 21 and an adult. Stop handing over the cash man! She wants to live a life of luxury and no consequences - stop paying so she can see the consequences.
You have been and still are enabling her. S T O P.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by Upsetnneedhelp
You seem a bit resentful that she was sent to such a high cost rehab? The fact is she seems to be staying sober so thats a good thing. Despite all the nice amenities rehab is still rehab.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 1,344
Have you considered whether you are putting your wife in a situation where she is the mediator between the daughter and you? That would be a very difficult situation to be in. I would if I were you try to find common ground with your wife – I do not know what that ground should be but being on the same page would make it a lot easier and less frustrating for booth of you.
There are a lot of comments in this thread regarding that addicts are manipulating, I think that is true. If we understand manipulation as acting in a specific way to provoke an reaction in the other – I think we as parents to teens or grown ups should be careful not to fall into that trap, we can easily do that – even with non-addict teens.
I have two sons a little younger than your daughter, they do not always make the decisions I hope they would. I try to let them know where I stand and what I accept and what my limits are – but what they decide is in the end their decision.
It is very difficult to change as a person and it is impossible to change others.
I do hope she will stay of drugs and alcohol and you and your wife will have a nice holiday.
There are a lot of comments in this thread regarding that addicts are manipulating, I think that is true. If we understand manipulation as acting in a specific way to provoke an reaction in the other – I think we as parents to teens or grown ups should be careful not to fall into that trap, we can easily do that – even with non-addict teens.
I have two sons a little younger than your daughter, they do not always make the decisions I hope they would. I try to let them know where I stand and what I accept and what my limits are – but what they decide is in the end their decision.
It is very difficult to change as a person and it is impossible to change others.
I do hope she will stay of drugs and alcohol and you and your wife will have a nice holiday.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8
Well, I am truly screwed. (Not that this is about me obviously)
SD21 is home, she went and hung with friends the first night and had a sober evening and everything was great, she came home super excited that she didn't feel tempted at all and called her sponsor etc. Overall there have been no issues, other than my wife fully buying into her version of life now. Before she came up mom was at least giving lip service to being tough and letting her face the results of her actions. Well in less than 2 days that turned into the new plan that SD21 is going back to the sober living house but she is stopping the aftercare that we had been paying for because she isn't getting anything out of it. She will now find her own therapist and start going and not have any direct supervision as far as someone monitoring where she is going etc.
Today we get a call that the drug test they gave her a week ago just came back from the lab Positive for Suboxone. Which is something they give Heroin addicts to avoid withdrawals and relapse, but for normal people (not addicted to H) it is basically a synthetic opioid. So they are kicking her out.
But, she swears she didn't use it and they are wrong and the supervisor is just sick of dealing with her and blah blah blah. Basically "That big meanie is out to get your baby and just doesn't like me!".
Mom fully believes her and they have decided that she will find a different sober living facility down where she was, on her own, and a new therapist, and a job, and just fly back down and move in and pick up with the same sponsor and groups where she left off, no problem.
I pointed out that Suboxone is a very specific drug that MOST screens don't even look for, so they had to pay extra to look specifically FOR that, not like she ate a poppie seed bagel and got a false pos on an opioid. In fact, in my reading 90% of drug screens MISS Suboxone. Plus, she had gotten into trouble 2 weeks ago for hanging out with a boy she met in the local group that she knows is a recovering heroin addict, so it is well within the realm of possibility to think she got a pill from this kid.
I suggested that Mom ask for a copy of the lab results to see what they tested for, and "volunteered" that we stick with the original plan that if she got kicked out she had to go to a diff program of our choosing in our region (not near her old network of friends but within driving distance) and enroll in school etc, find a new sponsor here, etc etc. Of course mom defended her because she believes SD21 and since they are "out to get her" she didn't get "kicked out" so therefore we will go ahead and subsidize this new plan.
So in my mind, a young woman with a LONG track record of lying, got caught 3+ times breaking the rules in the program we put her in and got one more chance. Then she decided to associate with multiple recovering Heroin addicts outside of the groups (she isn't supposed to even TALK to boys) and got into trouble for lying and sneaking to hang out with one all day when she said she was going to meetings. Suddenly comes up positive for a very specific, rarely used medication, that is almost exclusively given to recovering addicts. Now cries that she is being singled out and "picked on" because they are all "just bitches".
And we REWARD her by not only sending her back down, but sending her back down with even LESS structure and oversight and just "hope for the best".
So I tried to point out that this might not be the best way to handle this and now my wife is mad at ME.
So I either sit and say/do nothing and wait for the NEXT crisis, or I risk making my wife mad at ME because I am trying to point out the logic, or lack thereof, of this situation.
I think mom is being willfully ignorant, either she doesn't WANT to see and believe what's going on, or she just doesn't want to do so the day before Xmas and ruin it for everyone.
SO I sit here at work not even wanting to go home where SD21 is "Being an adult and handling this herself" calling places, which isn't going to work and by the time she has to leave I KNOW my wife will have to fly down with her to "Help her get settled in".
PS. For those that asked, my Step dad was an alchy and a Heroin addict and OD'd in our house when I was 11, I used various things all my life but quit when my best friend in HS died of Heroin OD and I had to put him in the ground. My Ex wife was an Oxycontin addict for the last 5 years of our marriage. I am no "rookie" when it comes to drug abuse, unfortunately.
SD21 is home, she went and hung with friends the first night and had a sober evening and everything was great, she came home super excited that she didn't feel tempted at all and called her sponsor etc. Overall there have been no issues, other than my wife fully buying into her version of life now. Before she came up mom was at least giving lip service to being tough and letting her face the results of her actions. Well in less than 2 days that turned into the new plan that SD21 is going back to the sober living house but she is stopping the aftercare that we had been paying for because she isn't getting anything out of it. She will now find her own therapist and start going and not have any direct supervision as far as someone monitoring where she is going etc.
Today we get a call that the drug test they gave her a week ago just came back from the lab Positive for Suboxone. Which is something they give Heroin addicts to avoid withdrawals and relapse, but for normal people (not addicted to H) it is basically a synthetic opioid. So they are kicking her out.
But, she swears she didn't use it and they are wrong and the supervisor is just sick of dealing with her and blah blah blah. Basically "That big meanie is out to get your baby and just doesn't like me!".
Mom fully believes her and they have decided that she will find a different sober living facility down where she was, on her own, and a new therapist, and a job, and just fly back down and move in and pick up with the same sponsor and groups where she left off, no problem.
I pointed out that Suboxone is a very specific drug that MOST screens don't even look for, so they had to pay extra to look specifically FOR that, not like she ate a poppie seed bagel and got a false pos on an opioid. In fact, in my reading 90% of drug screens MISS Suboxone. Plus, she had gotten into trouble 2 weeks ago for hanging out with a boy she met in the local group that she knows is a recovering heroin addict, so it is well within the realm of possibility to think she got a pill from this kid.
I suggested that Mom ask for a copy of the lab results to see what they tested for, and "volunteered" that we stick with the original plan that if she got kicked out she had to go to a diff program of our choosing in our region (not near her old network of friends but within driving distance) and enroll in school etc, find a new sponsor here, etc etc. Of course mom defended her because she believes SD21 and since they are "out to get her" she didn't get "kicked out" so therefore we will go ahead and subsidize this new plan.
So in my mind, a young woman with a LONG track record of lying, got caught 3+ times breaking the rules in the program we put her in and got one more chance. Then she decided to associate with multiple recovering Heroin addicts outside of the groups (she isn't supposed to even TALK to boys) and got into trouble for lying and sneaking to hang out with one all day when she said she was going to meetings. Suddenly comes up positive for a very specific, rarely used medication, that is almost exclusively given to recovering addicts. Now cries that she is being singled out and "picked on" because they are all "just bitches".
And we REWARD her by not only sending her back down, but sending her back down with even LESS structure and oversight and just "hope for the best".
So I tried to point out that this might not be the best way to handle this and now my wife is mad at ME.
So I either sit and say/do nothing and wait for the NEXT crisis, or I risk making my wife mad at ME because I am trying to point out the logic, or lack thereof, of this situation.
I think mom is being willfully ignorant, either she doesn't WANT to see and believe what's going on, or she just doesn't want to do so the day before Xmas and ruin it for everyone.
SO I sit here at work not even wanting to go home where SD21 is "Being an adult and handling this herself" calling places, which isn't going to work and by the time she has to leave I KNOW my wife will have to fly down with her to "Help her get settled in".
PS. For those that asked, my Step dad was an alchy and a Heroin addict and OD'd in our house when I was 11, I used various things all my life but quit when my best friend in HS died of Heroin OD and I had to put him in the ground. My Ex wife was an Oxycontin addict for the last 5 years of our marriage. I am no "rookie" when it comes to drug abuse, unfortunately.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Indiana, IL
Posts: 424
superdad, I have never heard of a sober living place putting restrictions on dating or socializing with the opposite sex. As you say she is an adult. Being told not to socialize with boys doesn't work with high school girls and sure as heck not going to work with a 21 year old.
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Originally Posted by Superdad454
and now my wife is mad at ME.
I think mom is being willfully ignorant, either she doesn't WANT to see and believe what's going on, or she just doesn't want to do so the day before Xmas and ruin it for everyone.
SO I sit here at work not even wanting to go home
. . . . where SD21 is "Being an adult and handling this herself" calling places, which isn't going to work and by the time she has to leave I KNOW my wife will have to fly down with her to "Help her get settled in".
PS. For those that asked, my Step dad was an alchy and a Heroin addict and OD'd in our house when I was 11, I used various things all my life but quit when my best friend in HS died of Heroin OD and I had to put him in the ground. My Ex wife was an Oxycontin addict for the last 5 years of our marriage. I am no "rookie" when it comes to drug abuse, unfortunately.
Sorry for your hard earned "education."
mho, get yourself involved in some real "Quality" aspects of life . . . Boy Scouts, Big Brothers, Salvation Army, (again, again, again) Alanon. With that Resume you are qualified for an Alanon Scholarship Discount membership, yunno.
Let the dead bury the dead.
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