BlueSkies1

I think the thread has become the question of determination, self-willpower, and individual control and how qualifying alcoholism as a disease plays into that.
I fully believe some people are more susceptible to various things than others, that's obvious.
But the day we take away our free will, our choice, and say that we don't have a choice over our individual difficulties is the day we take our own power away from us, make ourselves victims, and take away personal responsibility and control.
So labeling it as a disease must not do the above.

I've put on a few pounds. Am I responsible for eating ice cream yesterday after that thread? Yes. I enjoyed it too. Sure didn't help me lose weight.
My body has changed. I'm 49. SO has always said I have the metabolism of a squirrel. Could eat anything and stay skinny.
But...with age and practice...I have put on weight. You eat enough fast food, and it will happen. It will vary between individuals how long that takes, but it will happen!
You drink enough alcohol and you will become alcoholic. I think both overweight and alcohol problems are susceptible to every human on the planet. Some more so than others.
I drank a lot for several years. I know how to think alcoholically. I didn't go too far down that rabbit hole--but anybody can do it. Think of coping by saying, I'm angry, I'm tired, I'm fedup, I'm unhappy, I'm bored, and so I think I'll drink to deal with it, and I think I'll have more than a couple, and I think I'll practice this as a coping mechanism every day of the week. It's not difficult to do. Ease of getting out of that rabbit hole is surely linked to how far down one is in it. Just like losing 600 lbs has to be daunting and very difficult.
Can the brain change with enough alcohol consumption? Logic dictates yes it would. Further down the rabbit hole.
But we can't take choice away from people. Choice has to be an element of alcoholism, or nobody that has the "disease" could ever stop drinking.
People need self-esteem to do lots of things, stop drinking, lose weight, pick the issue. Choice plays deeply into how much self-esteem they have. Change is very difficult for all of us.

DreamsofSerenity

I think the disease is addiction and then it's a matter of what you are addicted to which determines all the rest.

I strongly believe obesity is an addictive disease. I also believe the assault on smoking without addressing the root cause of the addiction, has resulted in the obesity epidemic.

Maybe the tendency to be an addict is genetic but the DOC is random. My grandfather was an alkie, my mom is a codie, and my uncle chain smokes. My brother is a drug addict and I am a codie. But no one after grandpa drinks.

In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts is a great book about addiction.

Cephas

Thank you all for your input on this topic. It is good to see the different thoughts and reasoning about alcoholism being or not being a disease.

When I had my first one on one meeting with my councilor in a treatment center his entire message was "Alcohol is a disease, you have a disease". He kept pounding away at that in our first meeting. His point was to make sure I understood Alcoholism is serious business.

To say alcoholism is a disease and so I can't help myself is active addiction. To say alcoholism is a disease so I need to seek proper treatment is recovery.

It is serious business. It is potentially fatal and it destroys relationships and loved ones along with everything else if untreated.

Doctor Silkworth in the BB called it an allergy. The definition of allergy that makes sense is "Exaggerated reaction by the body to foreign substances that are harmless to most people." ~~Merriam Webster Dictionary.

My opinion for what it is worth is that for some there is a genetic component. I was full blown alcoholic from the first drink at a young age. My first drink felt like my destiny, as if everything in my life had led up to the moment I put alcohol in my body. It was what I was lacking in life, it was my solution to life and my inability to function without it. That is just me, I'm not saying it's that way for everyone. I am not the only addict in my family and alcohol is not the only substance abused.

Oh, one last thought. IQ was mentioned. I have found high IQ to be an obstical in recovery. The notion that I am smart enough to think my way out of it was a major block to seeking treatment for me.

Thank you again for your thoughts.

LexieCat

Ditto here. I've often heard it said that almost nobody is "not smart enough" to grasp and achieve recovery. But it sure is possible to be "too smart" to get it.

Personally, I think it is because so much about addiction is counterintuitive, as demonstrated in many of the posts on this thread. The stuff that SEEMS to make sense, or be logical, is not.

You don't beat this disease by "fighting" it, you beat it by giving up. Application of normal logic not only fails to solve the problem, it can exacerbate it.

As the King of Siam would say, "It is a puzzlement."

HopefulinFLA

I think it probably is a disease, make a lot of sense to me. However, it shouldn't be used as a crutch or an excuse for bad behavior. Each of us has a responsibility to be the best we can be, to "fix" ourselves, so as not to cause injury, emotional or physical, to those around us. If you had tuberculosis would you not seek treatment so as not to infect your family?

DreamsofSerenity

Lexie, that is SO true about giving up vs fighting it.

I also believe intelligence totally gets in the way of recovery. I know it has with my brother and my ex. Their constant analyses of everything are their own worst enemies. They don't believe in God so they don't like Al Anon/Nar Anon. The doctors aren't smart enough. The counselors are phoneys, and on and on..

Jazzman

See that's why I prefer the term chemical dependency when it comes to a "generic addiction". I've lived it myself. Back in the early 80s my habitual cocaine use turned into full blown addiction in a scary short period of time, couple months on the outside. A few months after that I quit cold turkey, no program, no support, white knuckled it for two years before my brain chemistry returned to normal. No different than when I quit smoking really, except that was WAY easier.

Did I have a disease? Hell no. I was addicted to one of the most powerfully addictive drugs on the planet that doesn't care about your genetic makeup. If I had anything it was low self esteem or I never would have gone down the rabbit hole to begin with.

But alcohol on the other hand is a drug that responds to peoples brain chemistry differently. I think some people are normies, some people abuse it like a crutch, some people are allergic, and some are ticking time bombs waiting for that first drink.

Jazzman

BTW, hats off to everyone! Usually these type of threads blow up and get closed.

LexieCat

The thread is young.

Skydreamer73

I do believe it is a disease, but I also believe many other factors play into it, DNA, environment, social settings, personal will power, mental health, etc are all factors in my views. I have a few friends who were addicts and simply needed to dry out long enough to see what they were doing and have been good for years, I also have a couple who have 10 plus years clean and fight everyday to remain clean, I think it is very individual whether or not you have the disease of addiction, or you just have years of a particular habit to break because of choices or environment you went through, neither road is easy, but I do believe there are differences.

Case in point would be my wife and I both drank when we met, we met at a bar for that matter, I had been a 5-6 night drinker for 6-7 years then another 3 with her, after seeing it didn't fit my life anymore I walked away, wasn't easy, biggest hurdle for me was friends and social settings, but oddly enough after time a lot of my true friends followed suit and we got new hobbies and social circles and now I don't even think about it and indulge maybe 2-3 times a year . My wife on the other hand struggled and could never fully give it up, we actually separated for years. Drinking for her was in waves but she always seemed to need it, not chemically mind you she could go weeks without drinking and have no withdrawals, but this was self medication, turns out she is bi-polar and when it ramps up so does the desire to drink and starts the tornado, and she doesn't see it, in fact I actually say she can't see it, that is of course until after the destruction and she recovers then it is an "oh my god how could I ever do that" type deal and she means it. So for me I say mine was environmental and social, a few new hobbies, a little will power and a few new "quality" friends were all I needed, for her it takes all that plus medication, meetings and other things to suppress the urge.

One of the replies mentioned "logic" and I noticed that anyone who is like myself doesn't understand her (it has taken me years and lots of research), they say "well if you can't handle it you just do not drink" because that is what they did, but other friends that have had issues like her completely disagree with them. When talking a few months ago to a few of my close logical friends about our recent go round I finally said " Ok you know how you open your new electronic gizmo and there is the manual and the quick start guide, here is the quick start guide, remove all logic and insert hyper emotion and desire, but put yourself on a foggy mountain road where you can't see the danger signs through the fog but you just keep driving anyway" They all said that made sense, and it helped them to think about her issue from a different point of view. So again to me, its a real disease, I just do not believe everyone with a problem may actually have the disease.

FireSprite

Ok, I GET THIS! This somehow drilled down between logic & emotion and makes sense to my way of thinking.... I was struggling with the wording, so thank you so much for taking the time to post!

LexieCat

Yes, AA's Big Book notes that there are alcoholics, and then there are "heavy drinkers"--who can quit anytime they have a good enough reason for it. Different animal--at least in some respects. Hard to say exactly what the differences are, but one has less difficulty staying stopped (even though quitting may be tough) than the other.

Florence

My understanding is that this is where the brain/body chemistry comes into play. There is a lot of research that says the brain's dopamine reward system is different in addicts (specifically alcoholics) than in normies and that they thus have stronger, more persistent cravings and lack the "brakes" to stop themselves. There is also evidence that alcoholics metabolize alcohol differently than normies. Both make a lot of sense to me.

In the HBO series "ADDICTION" there is a short movie where they speak to the Director of the NIDA, who elaborates on addiction as a brain disease at length.

HBO: Addiction: The Film: Supplemental Film: An Interview with Nora D. Volkow, M.D.

DrSober

Hope you don't mine me adding my two cents. I'm not only in recovery myself, but I am also a family member (husband) of an alcoholic in recovery....

No, I don't consider it a disease. I think that it's a choice. That doesn't mean that the neuro-physiological affects of chronic self-administration of an addictive substance doesn't make it more difficult, over time, to exercise the choice to not use, but that doesn't mean it's not a choice, and therefore a disease. Also it's worth noting that addiction is something that can be produced in ANY organism with a central nervous system - all you need to do is chronically administer an addictive substance to said organism. We're not special - we've just crossed the rubicon, so to speak, and in my opinion most of us who have become addicted can't ever go back (at least, I can't).

thoughtsonaddiction.wordpress.co m/tag/thomas-szasz

Good overview of my thinking on the subject. I should say that I don't at this point ascribe to harm reduction as something I wish to engage in, as I just want the simplicity that sobriety brings (it's just plain easier!). Also, I enjoy the support that I get from my Lifering meetings. I've found it to be refreshingly non-stigmatizing (we don't require people to label themselves "addicts" if they don't want to, or admit to character defects, or whatever - just to make abstinence a top priority).

Here's a good quote from the article:

"The disease model relies on the core elements.... which are “loss of control”, “craving”, the progression of the disease, leading to an irreversibility of the disease, and the idea of addiction in some way being intrinsic to the sufferer. All factors whose validity has come under scrutiny from behaviourists and sociologists who suggest that the disease model is more myth than fact (Peele,1998 Szaz 1996, Alexander,2002, Schaler 1991 , MacAndrew & Edgerton 1969 & Gori 1996).They all in fact suggest that this model is no more than a social construct...."

Also, I have my doubts about the genetic basis of alcoholism. I think it's true that some people are "low responders" to alcohol and some are "high responders" (e.g., some people find they can drink large amounts with few ill effects and it often is a trait correlated with later developing alcoholic behavior), and that alcoholism sometimes seems to run in families, but that doesn't really equate to addiction being a disease.

I think there's a big sociological and even political element with calling addiction or alcoholism a "disease" or not. If it's a disease - then it's something doctors treat and insurance companies and governments reimburse for. If it's a choice, then the situation is different.

I look at addiction as something like a really terrible, but honest mistake.

tomsteve

this seems to be a question brought up about once a month. use the search function and you can find many more opinions.

OnawaMiniya

I was hesitant to begin it lol.

OnawaMiniya

I may do a search just to see what others have to say that haven't chimed in here, that would be interesting.

A lot being said here too.

Thanks! I didn't think about that.

Justfor1

While it is PC today to say alcoholism is a disease in the medical community I know personally many Dr's and nurses who think otherwise. A good book by the psycologist Stanton Peele talks about how the "disease concept" can sometimes make alcoholics worse.

allforcnm

I don’t think one has to actually “give up” or admit they are “powerless” to recover from addiction. My husband’s treatment was centered around personal counseling sessions, learning cognitive behavior techniques, etc. His doctors didn't really call it fighting the disease, but rather healing from it.

The goal was to know himself better, overcome his own emotional issues, become stronger, use the skills he learned to control and keep his addiction in check.. hopefully for life. So this approach actually makes him “powerful” over his addiction because he can learn and has the ability to change and transform.

He used an approach that was based on the premise that addiction is a disease (because when you are actively using your brain is altered), but it is a disease that you can learn to control and put into remission.

Its not saying he does not understand the strength of addiction, or feel humbled by how quickly it took over his life and caused havoc; because he does. But I think knowing all of that, it just strengthened his resolve.

I think in terms of "fighting it" - the real problem stems from people who don't reach out for help, get treatment that is suitable for their specific needs. For most people I believe there are things going on behind the addiction. Your not really fighting it, if your not really treating it in some manner. That is what makes it a disease IMO. It needs treatment or it wont just go away.

BlueSkies1

Thank-you for that post, Dr. Sober. You don't over-think it, it's so much simpler with that view. I feel saner already just reading that. Brings me back to common sense, which is where I started before I became confused hearing all kinds of stuff that I listened to, couldn't process as rational, and felt like a deer in headlights.
It felt harmful to me to hear then that as a result of being in this relationship, that "I" had a condition that needed to be treated and that I was sick. Didn't help me one bit.
10 years later I'm back to where I started, feeling good about what I think is common sense.