Archangelesk

The amount of drinking that I see does not seem dramatic to me. It seems like maladaptive coping with alcohol that might be reigned in if the underlying problems where ever addressed. So, I am uncomfortable with the term "alcoholic," or with the idea that the only solution is that my husband stop drinking for the rest of his life. Heck, I have no idea what the definition of an alcoholic is. If having a problem at some point that was exacerabted by drinking qualifies, then pretty much everyone in my family is an alcoholic. Which, hey, could be true. I guess I am uncomfortable with the idea that all misuse of alcohol has the same solution, when there seems to be a spectrum in play.

But I have been reading so many stories here. And even though the amount of alcohol my husband drinks seems nowhere near what many of you describe, the behaviors are ALL in full force. My husband has withdrawn from 90 percent of our family life, is argumentative and angry and spends a lot of time quacking or trying to manipulate me. His connection to rational thought is entirely inconsistant and everything that is wrong is really because I am crazy.

Today I noticed that a bottle of wine I put in the fridge on Friday is gone. I took the boys to my cousin's for a camp out last night.

So. You know what, I think I best stop being so naive. How many of you want to chime in and tell me that there is a lot more drinking going on than I see.

amy55

Archangelesk,

I guess when I was married I never really considered my ex as an alcoholic, but he was. I must say, that wasn't the main concern about my marriage. It was his behavior when he drank, then later on his behavior when he drank, and when he didn't drink.

I left because I didn't like his behavior. It was horrible, the blaming, the disappearing acts, starting fights for no reason at all. His behavior was egregious. He was Dr jerky/ Mr Hyde. (Dr Jerky was intentional, and I forgot how to spell it)

Yes, my ex was an alcoholic, and I self medicated myself to be able to put up with it. What a stupid decision that was !!!!!!

Maybe what you see him drinking is all that he is drinking, but maybe not. Also, look at the other behavior. Can you live with that?

That part of it is just as difficult, if not more difficult to handle.

He may have problems that he needs help with, but what is he doing about that?

Does he even look at his behavior as a problem?

Just wanted to add this, they say for an alcoholic they need at least one year of sobriety to see change, for a change in behavior, and this is with much help, (professional), at least 2 years

Archangelesk

No, he does not see his behavior as a problem, and not I cannot live with it, nor should my children have to. I get your point. It does not really matter whether he is an alcoholic or not, from where I stand, or with respect to what I need to do.
My attorney is filing my divorce complaint tomorrow. It takes two years in my jurisdiction to complete a contested divorce (he will not consent). Maybe this will get to him and he will decide to consider getting help, at which point I could reevaluate before this thing gets finalized. Don't worry, I am not pinning my hopes on it. It just helps me to actually take this step knowing that it is not the final nail in the coffin, just to file.

At any rate, I started this whole process thinking my in-laws and I would do an intervention for him. Maybe we still will once I get the living situation figured out. I don't know, I am just idling on the idea for the moment. I don't want to get back into any codependent grooves - making it all about him.

But if we do, it seems like being able to figure out if he is an alcoholic or not is relevent. But hey, maybe not. Maybe the answer is, again, that it is not relevent to me. If he wants to fix it, he can go figure out what it is.

lillamy

Well... My thinking is that you are responsible for you. And your children.

But not for him.

Now, if you want to tell him the reason you're divorcing him is his drinking, and the changes in behavior his drinking has caused - do it. If you want to share that information with your inlaws, do it.

Whether or not he can be defined or diagnosed with alcoholism is less important than the fact that his drinking is affecting his relationships. That means there is a problem, whether you call him an alcoholic or not.

Another thing is that I became so accustomed to my AXHs drinking that a behavior that should have struck me as pathological became normalized. I would tell myself it was a cultural difference, that in his culture having a drink before dinner every day or having wine with dimmer every day or having a brandy after dinner every day was normal. Having all three however, wasn't.... But at that point, I was the frog in the pot who had seen his drinking increase gradually to the point where... It was normal. I didn't think of it as aberrant in any way...

LexieCat

I agree that whether he is technically an alcoholic or not is basically irrelevant to your decision.

FWIW, AA's Big Book defines alcoholism as a condition that causes the drinker to want MORE as soon as ANY alcohol is consumed, as well as a mental obsession that makes it irresistible to pick up a drink sooner or later in spite of any intentions to the contrary. The quantity of alcohol consumed is not part of the equation. AA recognizes that there are "heavy drinkers" who are able to quit, maybe with some difficulty, when they have a good enough reason to. What AA refers to as "real alcoholics" are those who are unable to quit even when they have EVERY reason to and fail despite repeated attempts. For those people the mental obsession gets them every time.

Now, there are other more "scientific" diagnostic criteria used by the medical profession, but I have the obsession and the craving for more if I pick up a drink, so I am perfectly comfortable calling myself an alcoholic.

Archangelesk

Thank you, LexieCat. That is helpful. Sheesh, I feel that way about carbs.....

I don't know what Mr. Arch's (Thank you, Hammar, I am borrowing this)mental state is with respect to alcohol is. And, although this is a revelation for me, I accept that it is irrelevent to my decision making process.

I do wonder if it makes a difference to any treatment he might get into, if he ever does. Is rehab equally useful for problem drinking which is a issue secondary to something else, like mental illness? I am curious. But then that gets me back to the same place, doesn't it. He has a giant problem that he denies. He will find out very shortly that I am on my way out. He can go figure out for himself what sort of treatment he needs and whether or not he is an alcoholic or not or he can just keep doing what he is doing.

I have never, never in my life been able to untangle myself from obsessing over what he is doing. And, lightening bolt, suddenly I have hit a point of self-awareness where I can. This feels really good. And I have to say, talking these revelations out loud in this supportive community is so very helpful. Thank you, everyone.

amy55

Hey arch,

Just wanted to let you know, that although my ex drank (and drank excessively), my first forum that I went to was because of his behavior. Mine was extremely verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, with a little of physical abuse thrown in also. He was to the extreme. Even after reading stories there and talking to people on that forum I have to admit, I became embarrassed about my life. There seemed to be something missing. Then I started to communicate with 3 men on there who were abusive.

I hate to say this, but they were the ones that got me through things. They all (the 3 I was talking to) also had a mental illness. Either depression, bipolar or whatever. They were seeing drs, and were taking meds, and they told me what their thoughts were prior to trying to get better. It kept me sane, but I still was not happy, because I didn't cause it, couldn't control it, couldn't cure it, and he refused to see it. You see, I was the crazy person!!!!!!!

I stayed a really long time trying to figure out if it was abuse, a mental illness, or alcoholism.

I was married for over 27 years.

I tried to open up to my sister once to tell her what I was seeing, and she shocked me. She said to me that when he gets like that, that I also get like that. That I like mirrored him. That really woke me up. I guess I was so involved with trying to make him change, and analyzing him, and trying to understand things, and reading and researching, I myself was getting crazy.

So did I leave him because he was an alcoholic? (Remember I started to self medicate)
Did I leave him because he was abusive? (I don't know, was hitting those lines myself)
Did I leave him because of a mental illness? (don't know that either, but I do know that I hit my own depression, and ptsd)

I left because I guess the 3 C's were finally hitting me, and I was making myself crazy trying to figure things out, reading books over and over. I realized the books only helped me, because I wanted the help, he didn't. I couldn't force that on him. So I then re-read all my books, and everything else that I was doing, but focused it on me. After all, I am the only person that I can change. Then I left.

At that point, it didn't matter who, what, when, where or why. I was not happy, and I could read all the books that I wanted to, go to all the therapists that I wanted to go to, try all different anti-depressants that I wanted to, but the one thing that any of this was not going to change, was how he treated me. So I gave up, I surrendered !!!!!!

I admitted that my life was unmanageable, I accepted that I had to work on me, and me only, and I let go of him.

Archangelesk

Amy55,

And here we are in the same boat.

Now that I am talking openly about my life with my friends and family, I am getting feedback. They all see the overfunctioning perfectionist. They have always teased me about being a control freak. But, now I know they see the depression, the hostility and all the other ways I have been sick. They also saw when I started changing. When I started practicing detachment, they knew it. They could see the calm settle in.

And I see it all so much more clearly. I used to think, well, I just have an artistic soul capable of profound emotion.

Nope. I just have a problem with codependency. But I am going to kick its ass.

Thank you for your post.

Recovering2

This is most certainly a "contagious" disease. Those of us who love an A often become just as sick as they are. We get stressed, headaches, sleep issues, eating issues, GI upset, anxiety, etc etc. We spin in our efforts to control everything, to give the illusion that things are okay. We become accustomed to their behavior, and it often takes more and more to really get our attention. Chaos becomes the "norm". Ugh.

I agree with the others, it doesn't really matter whether you think he's an A or not. His drinking is a problem for you...therefore it's a problem. You are taking steps to take care of you, the only area you do have control over. He will decided for himself what his path is.

Good Luck to you!

NewbieJ

This is exactly where I'm at right now.

Arch, I too have struggled with the denial of my husband's alcoholism. One thing that I told myself also was well, he's cut back, he doesn't drink that much etc. One of the things that helped me break through this denial was finding the bottles - here I was thinking he was only having what I saw and nope, I'd move the chair to vacuum and there would be empty pints of JD underneath. Mini wine bottles between the mattress and box spring. Minis in the trunk, under the front seat. Seeing him get a mini JD out of the luggage in the trunk and slip into his pocket at a road stop. Or the smell on his breath when he'd come home from work.

It just seems that well, he has to have it. Meanwhile I have stopped drinking because I don't want to purchase it and enable him in any way, and I don't miss it. So it isn't necessarily how much they drink, but why.

Tryingtoletgo3

In the beginning I was in the same place with my STBXAH. I didn't see any of his drinking though. When I realized that he constantly showed signs of being intoxicated, but no one ever saw him drinking, I knew there was a serious issue. When he finally opened up to me, I found out he was consuming 3-4 fifths of vodka a day, every day. That was on top of the muscle relaxers and antidepressents his mothers boyfriend the quack doctor had prescribed for him as well. He had perfected hiding it so well that he had jackets and boots with special pockets sewn into the insides in order to conceal bottles.....I knew better because I am a counselor and I work primarily with those who have addictions. Knowing that drinking is going on but is being hidden can signify a much larger issue than is there with someone who drinks openly. If you believe your husband is secretly consuming alcohol, beware. That is a major danger sign that it is much more than "problem drinking."

Bluegalangal

Yeah, I think there is. Mine has been doing a lot more drinking than I realized over the past 10 years or so. He hid it and gaslighted me, and I don't drink that much, esp. whiskey, so I really didn't remember how much we had or of what. I feel really stupid now. But from my experience: yes. He's drinking a lot more than you're seeing.

Archangelesk

Very interesting. He has this bottle of scotch sitting by his bed and the amount inside has not changed for weeks. I think he is trying to signal me with it - like, hey, see, I'm not drinking this. I am ignoring it.

He also stopped buying beer, maybe a month ago. He had been drinking 4-6 of those a day, many of them higher alcohol content, but seems to have stopped, for now. He might be drinking scotch, but I don't see the evidence. There is a collection of scotch in our friend's room on the other side of the house, and I don't check on the levels. But, he doesn't smell like he has been drinking.

Whether I have an accurate count of how much he drinks or not, I do know he has a very hard time waking up in the mornings, he showers inconsistantly. He has stopped shaving. He does his laundry and changes his sheets infrequently (in the man room, where he sleeps). He is rapidly gaining weight. He eats and sleeps inconsistantly. He is massively irritable and often interogates me about tiny things and challenges my judgment constantly. He is jonesing for a fight, and quite frustrated with my detachment skills. He gets very agitated if ask to do anything and is making it impossible for me to leave the house without the boys, unless I am going to work. (In other words, no social life or professional events in the evenings).

When I am home, he spend 95% of his time in his room reading or on the internet. He does not participate much in family life or do any maintenance, chores, errands, laundry, cooking or cleaning. He never leaves the house, except maybe to sit in the yard with the kids.

He is still very often funny and loving to them. But he is also impatient and more angry than I'd like when he dicsiplines them. I don't know what goes on during the day while I am at work, of course.

So, like I said, I don't know what alcohol is being consumed. But I am no longer going to live in this chaos.

pravchaw

It may be that he is mentally ill (i.e. clinically depressed). Can you encourage him to see a psychiatrist? If so a few weeks of medication might make a difference. Also, Does he have a successful career?

Archangelesk

Hello Pravchaw,
According to Mr. Arch, he is quite healthy. He declines to see his psychologist and stopped taking his ADHD meds. He will not go to see any sort of doctor or counselor. So, although I suspect you are correct about mental illness being something that clearly begs to be explored, he disagrees.

He stays at home with our young children. So, no career. He graduated from law school in May last year. He did not pass the bar in July and simply did not show up for it in February.

He almost never leaves the house- which is awful for the boys, but he gets very agitated if I suggest they should be in child care where they could engage in fun activities.

I have communicated very clearly that I love him and want him to be healthy and will support him in that. I will not support his denial and his drinking. He declines to respond. I filed for divorce and possession of the house yesterday.

It would be awesome if there was a medicine that could fix this is a few weeks. But he would have to want to take it.

pravchaw

Hello Arch, I hope your divorce filing galvanizes him into taking charge of his life. He has obviously got into a negative spiral which he needs to reverse. Keep on talking to him, whenever possible for him to seek treatment. Looks like he self medicating his mental illness with Alcohol. (absolutely the wrong thing to do as Alcohol makes depression worse).

Anti-depressants can make a dramatic difference.

stella27

Mrs. Arch, I think I would respectfully disagree with a previous poster.

Talking and encouraging someone to get help - who does not want it and doesn't take the initiative to do this for himself only makes you a nag.

Untreated (or mis-treated) mental illness is so sad, but you cannot allow yourself to get hung up in what is his choice. You have a big job and little ones and you are the only breadwinner. He is an adult and this is not a new situation.

I agree that SSRI's can be a wonder-drug, but that is not the entirety of your situation and your H already knows how you feel. I suspect you have talked til you're blue in the face.

I have heard it said that "Say it once, it's advice; say it any more, it's manipulation."

pravchaw

I think it okay to firmly state your boundaries but also leave open the opportunity for him to change. People change and recover all the time. Its worth preserving a family if it is possible. A depression is an illness that can be treated successfully.

In my personal life I have chosen to engage with my son rather than detach, but without nagging, pleading, bitterness or anger. Time will tell whether this approach will work and if he recovers, but I want to try my best.

stella27

I think there is a difference between a son and a husband. Her boundary is that she will not live with someone with untreated addiction or mental illness, including depression, and in order to enforce that boundary, she has to file for divorce. Her state requires a 2 year waiting period, so there is always the chance for him to seek his own treatment and become an invested partner, but from her previous posts, she is no longer willing to live like this.

Archangelesk

Thank you, Stella.
Before I detached, I turned into a shrill and horrible nag. I was hostile and I was always in a state of panic. I policed Mr. Arch and obsessed over how if I just did and said the right thing, he would see the light and come back to me. He responded to all of this by being terribly cruel and saying the things he knew would cause me to crumble and then telling me that I was the one who was mentally ill.

I will give you an example. When I was pregnant with boy two, I decided to express my concern that Mr. Arch appeared to be skipping classes. He got defensive and then mean. I cried. I accused him of making me feel all alone in our marriage while I was pregnant. And he looked me in the eye and very coldly and emphatically said, "you are all alone and no one can help you."

Most pregnant women would have a hard time with this. Add in codependent abandonment issues possibly abedded by being an adoptee - and I experienced such panic that I thought I was having a heart attack. And I know he said that because he knew it would hit home. I felt like my cells were coming apart. Typically, this type of button pushing would have lead to epic, all night fighting. But something switched inside. I don't know if it was the culmination of just more pain than I could bear, or the fact that I was acutely aware that an epic blow-up was bad for the baby inside me and bad for the one sleeping down the hall, but I experienced my first moment of detachment. (I didn't have a name for it then). And I stopped crying and I left the room.

Months later when I went into labor, I didn't even go wake Mr. Arch up until it was time to leave for the delivery. I was all alone- well fine- I could hack it. Mr. Arch had been a wonderful support during the labor for boy one and I can geniunely give him credit for being a crucial member of that birth team and the person I can thank for my success at a natural labor. But the second time, I have limited memories of him during the labor. Because I believed what he had said when I was pregnant and I went to battle alone.

At any rate, I have tried to save this man. With every fiber of my being. And instead of saving him, I was just ending up in danger of loosing myself. So, instead I have had to learn to detach and make a plan to get out. It is my profound hope that this choice does work to galvanize my husband into seeking his own recovery. But I am not going to choose my path or my boundaries to try and change him. I am going to do it to save myself and my children.