redatlanta

Isn't most of or personality developed in childhood? I mean people don't come out of the womb drunk - I suppose you will find some preteens that drink and use but its more common to find addiction a little later in life at a minimum late teens more likely 20's to 30's.

So who were they before they ever became an alcoholic?

That's a really broad generalization to say that rarely is an alcoholic truly sorry when taking their amends step - where do you get your information?

I would say an active alcoholic may or many not be sorry for behavior but is unwilling to change it. Someone working their recovery - if they are in it to win it then yes, I believe the "amends" portion has merit.

I didn't know RAH when he was in the throws of his addiction. There are many good things about him - he is the most compassionate person I have ever met. Loyal, supportive, funny, affectionate, very loving, and he is not so great things too, just like me. People are people its not always about addiction or alcoholism. Some of the biggest a**holes I have ever met didn't even drink or use. What's their excuse?

PohsFriend

Ding ding ding... Not too long ago a friend was ranting about the biggest pr--k I've ever known. He asked what I thought and I just said "I think Viagra would just make him taller".

Favorite bumper sticker : 'mean people SUCK'

DefofLov

I do not take diseased thinking or thoughts seriously whether a person is drunk or sober. The "truth" comes out when communicating honestly, openly, and intimately with another person.

So, does "the truth" come out when someone is drunk? In my humble opinion, no.

Does the truth come out when a friend or family member is caught up in diseases thinking and not searching within for peace or clarity? Again, not in my humble opinion.

I will not assume that the mistakes someone makes or the hurtful things someone does is their "true character." Because I have made mistakes and I hurt people. And I am so glad for a higher power who forgives me for that and I am so glad that the people who chose to forgive me and those who know about those things do not use them to assess me or determine that I am a bad person.

It does me absolutely no good to judge the alcoholics and addicts in my family.

My aunt, for example, is heavily addicted to crack right now. And has been for a long time. She is also a classic martyr and raging codependent. She has said VERY hurtful things to my grandmother, my mother, her children, and me. Is that the "real" her? Again, not in my opinion because she has not taken the time to figure out who she really is and what she really wants out of life. I know she wants to be loved and appreciated and I just don't think that she gets that it's starts with herself.

I am rambling a bit, but overall, I just want to make two main points:

1.) Figuring out who I really am is hard enough. It does nothing to figure out if the drunk is "her true self" when drunk or when sober. That is for the A and her HP to figure out.

2.) I personally choose not to assess a person based on her worst moments and defects. I don't want any one doing that to me because though not related to drugs, I too have had dark periods in my life and I am grateful that those periods do not define who I am.

Just my opinion and ESH.

Love,

Lily

Katiekate

The alcoholics brain is damaged.

Everything they say comes from a damaged brain.

Sober or drunk, each and every word that comes out of their mouth is in support of their addcition.

For instance, my axbf would always tell me that I was a mental case, the truth was, that he was. He was either drunk or hung over (in withdrawal) his words were empty and cruel. Nothing he ever said came from a place of truth. The truth is , he was an alcoholic, alcohol poisons the brain, the brain is the control center of the human body. The control center is poisoned.

In the end, there was never any reason for me to analyze, the root of the problem was alcoholism (Brain Damage)

Hopeworks

Yes... that is a pretty broad brush across the line and while I can see how some could come to that conclusion I don't think it is entirely accurate.

First of all there are "amends" and then there are "amends done properly" and amends done properly means making things right again as soon as possible...if it is restitution there is immediate genuine effort to repay the monies. If it something else that can be repaired then the offender needs to do that.

It is not the saying "I'm sorry" that makes it okydoky. remorse and true repentance are two different things.

Just because someone attends meetings and say they have done the steps including amends doesn't mean they did the real deal...the whole enchilada...the hard work and true amends.

And not every drunk is the same... their stories and background, families or origin, personalities and natural level of empathy and social IQ are different. Alcoholics come from every social strata and some have experienced great trauma in childhood. Some just have the genetics to be predisposed to addiction.

But there are few people that will not benefit from doing the steps and every person is capable of change if they want it and are willing to follow the path of authentic recovery, spiritual growth and the influence of a group.

We become what we think and our brains are amazing organs. We are meant for community and society and want to be a part of something good and develop self worth, meaning and purpose. We are all hard wired for this by God and even the lowly alcoholic has that drive within him somewhere.

I know some bad hombres... I am in the criminal justice system and deal with people that will cut your heart out and feed it to you with out so much as a blink of the eye. I have seen some of them changed...not all.... only those who seek change and do the work.

I believe in the miracle despite my seeing so many choose to stay in darkness of addiction and selfishness. It is their choice. Sadly.

bamboo10

Ha mine told me that I was an alcoholic when I had 2 glasses of wine. At the time however, he was not an alcoholic AT ALL! He has now admitted his disease but I found it pretty comical.

Audrey1

This is how they make you feel like you are the crazy one, the drunk one, the useless one, the jealous one, the one who is destroying your relationship, the one who "doesn't try", the one who gives up too easily...

By turning it all around they somehow manage to convince you that it is you, and not them, despite all evidence to the contrary, who is guilty of all the nasty things alcoholism drags into relationships. How do they do that?! It's quite a talent. Not that I would want this talent, but I don't think I could manage that kind of manipulation while sober, let alone while living each day in the dumbed-down haze of drunkeness.

It's good to hear it isn't just me who has had this happen.

bamboo10

Ha no it is certainly not just you! Someone brought up the book In Sheeps Clothing in another thread-or maybe this one idk-but i am interested in reading it...its about manipulation and master manipulaters. a lot of the amazon reviews said "READ BEFORE YOU GET MARRIED" so it sounds like its an eye opening read

Mightyqueen801

Hilarious!

Mightyqueen801

That's the question, exactly. I believe they were missing whatever it is they are missing before they were alcoholics. Alcoholism is a symptom of something bigger. I could outdrink my alcoholic ex and partied my brains out with the best of them--but I am not an alcoholic and never became one. I also do not have a problem identifying when my behavior affects that of other people.

Experience and observation. Obviously, I can't know every single recovering alcoholic who walks the earth, so others' opinions and experience may differ. I have been married to and had a best friend who were alcoholics, plus two alcoholic siblings, one dead, one still living, and because of these people I've circulated amongst quite a few alcoholics over the decades, active and recovering. Being somewhat obsessive, I've thought quite a bit about why they behave the way they do, and while I know all the AA rhetoric and am familiar with recovery language and the disease model, it just doesn't all add up. There are pieces missing, and I am endlessly curious to figure out what those pieces are. As I stated up front, I don't have all the answers. I'd be rich if I did.

As previously stated, I have met a few genuinely recovering alcoholics who were working toward real, structural change in themselves, and so such types would probably take their amends seriously. I still maintain that they are relatively rare.

I don't know, but hopefully the people who have to deal with them have their own forum!

I'm glad your RAH works out for you. Much happiness.

redatlanta

Thanks for your response - Point of View - for me most of the people I have known who are alcoholics or addicts are people I work with. High rate of it in my industry. I can think of 5 right now. 4 are the best people ever. Still sober after many, many years. 1 in relapsing now - meth. He is a sweet guy - keeps f'ing up at work and doesn't really seem sorry is either non-responsive or defensive. Actually his "sorry" seems to be more about being sorry that others had to step in for him but not really sorry that his actions caused it.

I may not have the same point of view of RAH if I had known him when he was trying to get sober - it began in '98 but he wasn't successful until '02 I imagine painful and futile feeling for his family. I have read his amends they are written in his big book.

Then again RAH has a constant reminder of his actions- pancreatitis and diabetes. I expect we headed to the hospital today with a pancreatitis flareup. 6 months since the last so I am happy its the longest he has ever gone in 10 years. For him its a reminder of what it came from and he is already saying "why didn't I stop drinking when the Dr's told me to".

thislonelygirl

I dont know there have been drunken moments where ive thought things
But dont say them. Alcoholics are a confussion

PohsFriend

Let's go with the premise that most A's are only halfway serious about amends.

What percentage of the rest of the population even makes a halfassed attempt to inventory their failures and address them and make any attempt at making amends?

I'm for holding an alcoholic to the same accountability standards as none else, a drunken mistake that hurts someone else is not excused simply because the deed was committed while drunk.

.....but let's flip that over, an alcoholic doesn't deserve to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us either.

It's not easy and it took me a while to get here but I've stopped keeping a running total on who's more wrong points. My wife can't undo past mistakes any more than I can, I ask her to forgive my mistakes and I try to do better and that's the standard I apply to her. Today she's been great, went to her IT and now she's doing her meeting and the gym while I hang with the baby...l. I've been on my back and semiconscious for the past 8 days due to a big surgery on the 26th anda little one on the 28th. She's been stuck with everything for a week. I could say "well I was stuck with everything for a month this time last year!". Or I can say "honey, thank you so much for being a great mom and wife and handling everything while I recover"

Guess which one I chose? Which one is more likely to encourage her?

Lol, an alcoholic who makes half an effort at amends is ahead of most people.

Carol Star

They have the isms of the alcoholism......I, self, and me......They are stuck in the age they started using....they may have the courage when drunk to say something that may be true for them but not really true in reality.....They are totally self serving so if you aren't serving them their little me will be upset.

NeverQuit

This has been a very good discussion. Thank you all for sharing your thought with us.

I am not sure if I should start a new thread with my comments or tag on here so let me know. Here's what I face and I am sure from previous posts that I am not alone.

My A says things to me while drinking that are mean and nasty and extremely hurtful. BUT, they are said only to me and not to her drinking buddies, other family members or co-workers. She will blast some of them to me but she won't get in their faces when drinking. They see her as the BEST FRIEND and FUN DRINKER and only on rare occasions does she slip and blow up in front of someone other than me. She sure does not have any restraint in getting all up on me for everything from delusional thinking to little things that may or may not have happened years ago.

So my point is that there IS a filter in place with her that prevents her from offending her drinking buddies but that filter is removed at home. Either she saves up her anger and rage while drinking with friends so as to not offend them and she is so emotionally loaded with anger that she sees me as the only safe person to vent it on. And she knows that I will take it or I will enter into the anger game that she is playing. If I dare to disagree with any illogical argument she has about anyone then her anger it totally focused on me. There are no restraints to her verbal attacks at home or in the car. Sometimes she transforms from the Happy Drunk at a party to a raging, screaming person as soon as we get in the car to go home. And no one believes that she does this since they only see her smiling, laughing persona.

So are drunk words the true words or is there more control possible than we think?

Katiekate

I think I spent too much time trying to analyze the things that were said, wondering if he really meant them, if they were true.

What I should have been doing was thinking, this is abusive, I should not be putting up with being treated this way.

Honestly, who the hell would believe a word a drunk would say, especially when drunk.

It's part of the mind ****. It's part of the way they keep us hooked.

It's a terrible , abusive, mean, ****** way to treat anyone, no one deserves it and no one should put up with it, not once.

We do not get our self esteem from drunks.

EnglishGarden

I've been in therapy with a Jungian for many years and we have looked at this, through the Jungian lens. Dr. Carl Jung emphasized that everyone has a shadow, everyone has buried primitive "unacceptable" qualities like rage, violence, extreme jealousy, hate, extreme forms of lust, ruthlessness....it can be quite a list.

The Jungian point of view is that the more someone refuses to own his or her shadow--and usually those who are most self-righteous and pious are the ones in most denial of their shadow--the more likely that person will be to blame others for being what he or she refuses to own in himself, or to find perverse ways to release the shadow without upsetting the public image (ministers soliciting prostitutes, for example).

In some Jungian writing it has been suggested that the addict has, in addiction, perfectly molded such a shining mask--a persona--that in his denial he actually believes he is this amazing mask. So he is very inflated. And he fools a lot of people.

But addiction opens a door the addict has no control over. That door is the one that leads straight to the shadow that the addict--just like all of us--has tried to deny. But addiction removes the usual controls, and the demons are let loose. And when they come out they are vicious and nasty and we can't believe what we are hearing or seeing as the addict turns into Mr. Hyde.

I think that if I lost control of my shadow, I would be just like the addict. My worst primitive emotions and compulsions would escape. Jealousy, rage, the works.

We might think we are incapable of causing others tremendous pain, of certain venal sins, of shocking behaviors. But the potential is in us all. It is best to know we have this capacity, and rather than deny it, to find a way to contain it. When someone beats up a punching bag in a gym instead of the lover who has just cheated on him, he is releasing his shadow in a contained way. But he knows he'd really like to hurt her. There is that dark part of him.

I don't trust rainbow people because they don't own their shadows. But I know they have a dark side and so do I.

Mightyqueen801

This was an excellent piece of writing.

I know what I am capable of. Near the end of my marriage to the alcoholic, I realized that I was not afraid of what he would do next as much as I was afraid that I was going to kill him. I saw the possibility of my one day smashing him over the head with something over and over and over again until he was down and would never get up again.

EnglishGarden

I had always been very nonconfrontational, quiet, shy, soft-spoken.

One night when my exAH was very drunk and I was very desperate to make him listen, I shoved him hard across the kitchen. I had never put my hands on someone in that way. I completely understand why some spouses of alcoholics behave in ways they never could have imagined. We can become as out of control as the alcoholic, say terrible things which can never be unsaid, we can hit, we can yell, just like the alcoholic.

Our responsibility is to stop it. Get help. Stop blaming the alcoholic. Make a promise to ourselves that we refuse to let addiction become in us the dominating, possessing, controlling force that it is in the alcoholic's or drug addict's life. Ultimately we are responsible for how we live our days and nights.