Drunk words are Sober Thoughts......
Taking back what is mine!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Ky
Posts: 277
Drunk words are Sober Thoughts......
Do you this is true? The more i deal with ABF the more i am starting to beleive it. Also as i think back to times that i drank i recall being much more open to talk with using my brain to mouth filter sayung things i meant but would have never said had i been sober. If these are his real thoughts that he spews at night while drunk why cant he just stoo being mr nice perfect guy during the day and end it? I hate trying to decode his non sense, i should just stop wasting my time.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Long Branch, NJ
Posts: 253
Yes, I believe it is true. There are things a drunk might never say when they are sober, but it does come out when they are drunk. Those things have to be inside that person SOMEWHERE--alcohol doesn't "manufacture" thoughts and words.
Your last sentence says it all. Yes, you should just stop wasting your time. "Decoding" and trying to figure out how to have a rational conversation with a drunk to make them understand YOU is a waste of precious time.
Your last sentence says it all. Yes, you should just stop wasting your time. "Decoding" and trying to figure out how to have a rational conversation with a drunk to make them understand YOU is a waste of precious time.
Living in a Pinkful Place
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 7,545
What I learned is that most of the words spoken by some under the influence are not always "infinite words of wisdom, or words revealing unspoken truths, but simply words used to distract from the issue at hand ~ the alcoholic/addict's uncontrolled behaviors, drinking and actions"
meaning basically if the A says things that hurt then we won't be so focusing on their drinking/drugging ~ we will be too busy defending or licking our wounds from the hurt words ~
Not staying this is always the case - but just in my situation ~ that was what happened often ~
For me, I learned it was in my best interest to not try to talk to someone under the influence of any substance ~ I usually got better responses from talking to a pine tree ~
just my e, s, & h ~
wishing you the best
pink hugs
meaning basically if the A says things that hurt then we won't be so focusing on their drinking/drugging ~ we will be too busy defending or licking our wounds from the hurt words ~
Not staying this is always the case - but just in my situation ~ that was what happened often ~
For me, I learned it was in my best interest to not try to talk to someone under the influence of any substance ~ I usually got better responses from talking to a pine tree ~
just my e, s, & h ~
wishing you the best
pink hugs
Stoic
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wash D.C.
Posts: 321
I respectfully disagree with the notion that drunk words are sober thoughts.
That theory implies that the A maintains a semblance of their normal self while drunk...which I think 99% of the people here would agree isn't true.
To understand....I think a much better metaphor would be Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde.
Jekyl is a normal person....but when he turns into the monster Hyde, he's not "projecting" Jekyl; he's a truly different person with no connection to his previous incarnation.
That theory implies that the A maintains a semblance of their normal self while drunk...which I think 99% of the people here would agree isn't true.
To understand....I think a much better metaphor would be Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde.
Jekyl is a normal person....but when he turns into the monster Hyde, he's not "projecting" Jekyl; he's a truly different person with no connection to his previous incarnation.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,796
Originally Posted by ResignedToWait 
That theory implies that the A maintains a semblance of their normal self while drunk...which I think 99% of the people here would agree isn't true.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Long Branch, NJ
Posts: 253
Originally Posted by ResignedToWait
I respectfully disagree with the notion that drunk words are sober thoughts.
That theory implies that the A maintains a semblance of their normal self while drunk...which I think 99% of the people here would agree isn't true.
To understand....I think a much better metaphor would be Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde.
Jekyl is a normal person....but when he turns into the monster Hyde, he's not "projecting" Jekyl; he's a truly different person with no connection to his previous incarnation.
That theory implies that the A maintains a semblance of their normal self while drunk...which I think 99% of the people here would agree isn't true.
To understand....I think a much better metaphor would be Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde.
Jekyl is a normal person....but when he turns into the monster Hyde, he's not "projecting" Jekyl; he's a truly different person with no connection to his previous incarnation.
I think the drunk IS the default personality. The sober person is a fake, a veneer that covers the true colors of the alcoholic. This is also because I believe the drinking to be merely a symptom of a much deeper personality/character issue, which I know not everyone agrees with.
Think of Ted Bundy, for an extreme example. He was an evil, murderous human being with no regard for others' lives. But when he needed to be in society, he could put on a show, appearing to be a normal human being.
I think the alcoholic is similar with the addition of the alcohol (and of course the fact that they don't normally strangle people and scatter their bones in the woods, thank goodness.) They maintain the "face" to the world, often fooling family and friends with their normalcy (you surely must have heard that lame old claim about someone being a "nice guy except when he drinks". The "nice guy" is the fake, IMO.) But once they drink, the real self comes out. The alcohol is merely the key that allows their dark, base, true selves to emerge, and the urge to drink is the inability of that dark self to keep itself hidden.
I know there is a great deal of resistance to this theory. It's not what people want to hear. It says that "recovery" may be difficult or impossible. But, after years of looking at this, I don't see any other explanation.
Stoic
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wash D.C.
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I think the drunk IS the default personality. The sober person is a fake, a veneer that covers the true colors of the alcoholic.
Who says there isn't agreement in disagreement!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 222
Mass manipulators..everyone says my xabf is SUCH a NICE guy... no..he projects being a nice guy; he is nice when he wants to be. I'm not demonizing him; it is just the fact. He wants to look nice to everyone - he wants to be viewed as amazing and he is...from afar. Everyone says to look at their actions; his were nice too...to strangers..to coworkers..not to his family and not to those closest to him. At this point, I don't believe one word that he has ever said to me...not sober and not drunk. Since our breakup; I've heard the Q: "when do you know an alcoholic is lying?" Answer: "When they open their mouth". True for mine; can't speak for yours specifically.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Long Branch, NJ
Posts: 253
Originally Posted by choublak
What about recovering alcoholics? What is their "true" personality then?
Their true personality, I believe, is the one that comes out when drunk, of course, but they are fighting it by resisting the alcohol. And some--very few--but some--actually do manage to change their personalities/character with true structural character change.
However, for the most part recovering alcoholics are not CHANGED people, not at their base. They are learning new BEHAVIOR. That is different from becoming, for example, compassionate people who genuinely care about others. I think they can become those people because I've met a few, but it takes many, many years of sobriety and hard work to effect that sort of true change.
Think about the "amends" step. Rarely is a recovering alcoholic truly sorry when they take this step. They know that what they've done to others is wrong, but because they've been told it's wrong. They don't FEEL remorse, at least not in most cases. Have you ever had an alcoholic make "amends" to you? They say what they are supposed to say, but there's really no heart behind it, and they easily slip back into their defenses when called on that. "I'm TRYING to make amends here--it's part of my recovery--I have this 'disease' and what I did to you I really couldn't help/don't remember doing."
Yes, the behavioral changes are usually far better than living with a drunk for a person who chooses to remain in contact with an alcoholic in their life. But can there ever be a real connection with that person even after they stop drinking? A connection the same as with a person who was never an alcoholic? Think about it.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Long Branch, NJ
Posts: 253
Originally Posted by ResignedToWait
I smiled when I read that, as you sound as jaded as I feel most of the time.
Who says there isn't agreement in disagreement!
Who says there isn't agreement in disagreement!
I am in my fifties, and my post-divorce attempts at dating ended years ago when I only ever met--you guessed it--alcoholics and addicts, EVEN WHEN they didn't appear to be alcoholics and addicts at first glance. To my horror, I realized that those are the only men who have ever been interested in or available to me, and I vowed to stop dating and to try very hard to learn to accept lifelong solitude as far as relationships are concerned. Some days I'm better at acceptance than others.
So, I was having that very conversation with a woman in my church one day (she is also divorced) and I said, "I would never date a person in "recovery", even if they had ostensibly been sober for 40 years. Within weeks of meeting me, that person would start drinking again. I can guarantee it."
Yes, I guess I am jaded! Hehehe.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,796
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Good question.
Their true personality, I believe, is the one that comes out when drunk, of course, but they are fighting it by resisting the alcohol. And some--very few--but some--actually do manage to change their personalities/character with true structural character change.
However, for the most part recovering alcoholics are not CHANGED people, not at their base. They are learning new BEHAVIOR. That is different from becoming, for example, compassionate people who genuinely care about others. I think they can become those people because I've met a few, but it takes many, many years of sobriety and hard work to effect that sort of true change.
Think about the "amends" step. Rarely is a recovering alcoholic truly sorry when they take this step. They know that what they've done to others is wrong, but because they've been told it's wrong. They don't FEEL remorse, at least not in most cases. Have you ever had an alcoholic make "amends" to you? They say what they are supposed to say, but there's really no heart behind it, and they easily slip back into their defenses when called on that. "I'm TRYING to make amends here--it's part of my recovery--I have this 'disease' and what I did to you I really couldn't help/don't remember doing."
Yes, the behavioral changes are usually far better than living with a drunk for a person who chooses to remain in contact with an alcoholic in their life. But can there ever be a real connection with that person even after they stop drinking? A connection the same as with a person who was never an alcoholic? Think about it.
Their true personality, I believe, is the one that comes out when drunk, of course, but they are fighting it by resisting the alcohol. And some--very few--but some--actually do manage to change their personalities/character with true structural character change.
However, for the most part recovering alcoholics are not CHANGED people, not at their base. They are learning new BEHAVIOR. That is different from becoming, for example, compassionate people who genuinely care about others. I think they can become those people because I've met a few, but it takes many, many years of sobriety and hard work to effect that sort of true change.
Think about the "amends" step. Rarely is a recovering alcoholic truly sorry when they take this step. They know that what they've done to others is wrong, but because they've been told it's wrong. They don't FEEL remorse, at least not in most cases. Have you ever had an alcoholic make "amends" to you? They say what they are supposed to say, but there's really no heart behind it, and they easily slip back into their defenses when called on that. "I'm TRYING to make amends here--it's part of my recovery--I have this 'disease' and what I did to you I really couldn't help/don't remember doing."
Yes, the behavioral changes are usually far better than living with a drunk for a person who chooses to remain in contact with an alcoholic in their life. But can there ever be a real connection with that person even after they stop drinking? A connection the same as with a person who was never an alcoholic? Think about it.
Today is a New Day
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,766
I believe that when someone is drunk they reveal another facet of their personality, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's their words revealing it.
XABF's abuse was more obvious when he was drunk, as he had less inhibitions to hide it. You could also see the religious side of him that only those close to him knew about if he was sober. His verbal abuse when drunk revealed his manipulative/"male-rights" side that he kept hidden otherwise (but I figured it out a few months before I left based on stories about his past behaviors).
I had a friend in college who got completely drunk one night (first and last time). He roamed the campus announcing to everyone that "Jesus loves you!" When he got back to his dorm room his roommates say he refused to sleep in his bed because "God told me to sleep on the couch." Considering he fell off the couch in the middle of the night, and he had the top bunk, it *was* a good idea. This was a person who was very active in the local church, so I figured he really did mean it when he said he liked participating.
Did he believe God spoke to him on a regular basis? Nope, just that night. But I tell you, he was more vocal when he was drunk than any of the exaggerated evangelists on television. Passionate about what he was saying, and no inhibitions to slow himself down until he passed out.
The words aren't necessarily the important bit, but I do believe you can learn about someone's hidden bits (or validate unhidden ones) when a person is drunk.
XABF's abuse was more obvious when he was drunk, as he had less inhibitions to hide it. You could also see the religious side of him that only those close to him knew about if he was sober. His verbal abuse when drunk revealed his manipulative/"male-rights" side that he kept hidden otherwise (but I figured it out a few months before I left based on stories about his past behaviors).
I had a friend in college who got completely drunk one night (first and last time). He roamed the campus announcing to everyone that "Jesus loves you!" When he got back to his dorm room his roommates say he refused to sleep in his bed because "God told me to sleep on the couch." Considering he fell off the couch in the middle of the night, and he had the top bunk, it *was* a good idea. This was a person who was very active in the local church, so I figured he really did mean it when he said he liked participating.
Did he believe God spoke to him on a regular basis? Nope, just that night. But I tell you, he was more vocal when he was drunk than any of the exaggerated evangelists on television. Passionate about what he was saying, and no inhibitions to slow himself down until he passed out.
The words aren't necessarily the important bit, but I do believe you can learn about someone's hidden bits (or validate unhidden ones) when a person is drunk.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Real World
Posts: 729
My therapist is a big believer in the book "feeling good" By David Burns. He talks about ten "cognitive distortions" that trip us up. Most of the ten are applicable to many of the questions we ponder here.
Generally, I think there is some element of truth but that might be "beer balls" or the courage to speak your mind despite it being better not t, or it might be a desperate attempt to get the spotlight off of their own issues.
There's a post that's been building in me for the last month, one about "I think my ex is an alcoholic". That I've been avoiding. When drunk, she was a brutally abusive and nasty person but she can go for weeks without drinking if she's on a diet or wants to prove she is not a drunk. Might be time for me to "go there".
When I finally packed up my child and myself and got out I ran straight to my RAW who was completely and undeniably addicted to alcohol. ...but when drunk she was sweet and kind, which is who she is sober.
So I am more in the "in vino veritas" (in wine, truth) camp on this one. My sweet wife did not get mean, she got overwhelmed by painful memories and old wounds to the point where she was severely depressed - like suicidally depressed. My issue with her drinking has more to do with fear for her health than negative behavior. The only negative was that shed spiral out of control focused on some hurt and act irrationally and impulsively.
I love my wife. It's so good seeing the serenity in her that progresses with her sobriety. This past wee I have been flat on my back most of the time and she is handling that and the baby so well. A good friend and business partner taught me a good saying "you are who you are all the time".
Generally, I think there is some element of truth but that might be "beer balls" or the courage to speak your mind despite it being better not t, or it might be a desperate attempt to get the spotlight off of their own issues.
There's a post that's been building in me for the last month, one about "I think my ex is an alcoholic". That I've been avoiding. When drunk, she was a brutally abusive and nasty person but she can go for weeks without drinking if she's on a diet or wants to prove she is not a drunk. Might be time for me to "go there".
When I finally packed up my child and myself and got out I ran straight to my RAW who was completely and undeniably addicted to alcohol. ...but when drunk she was sweet and kind, which is who she is sober.
So I am more in the "in vino veritas" (in wine, truth) camp on this one. My sweet wife did not get mean, she got overwhelmed by painful memories and old wounds to the point where she was severely depressed - like suicidally depressed. My issue with her drinking has more to do with fear for her health than negative behavior. The only negative was that shed spiral out of control focused on some hurt and act irrationally and impulsively.
I love my wife. It's so good seeing the serenity in her that progresses with her sobriety. This past wee I have been flat on my back most of the time and she is handling that and the baby so well. A good friend and business partner taught me a good saying "you are who you are all the time".
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 178
I'm struggling with this one at the moment as I want to believe in the Jekyll and Hyde thing, but wondering how much of a change to really expect when someone becomes sober.
RABF is Jekyll at the moment, but I'm quite sure he's still lying about certain things. Not about drinking, but other silly things which is completely unnecessary.
Sometimes I wonder if this is just my paranoia manifesting amid the remains of the endless lies from the time he drank, but it's hard to continue to think you're being paranoid when you keep catching them out lying! And then it's hard to get upset about the lies because they're relatively irrelevant compared with the lies of active alcoholism.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't really. Sigh...
RABF is Jekyll at the moment, but I'm quite sure he's still lying about certain things. Not about drinking, but other silly things which is completely unnecessary.
Sometimes I wonder if this is just my paranoia manifesting amid the remains of the endless lies from the time he drank, but it's hard to continue to think you're being paranoid when you keep catching them out lying! And then it's hard to get upset about the lies because they're relatively irrelevant compared with the lies of active alcoholism.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't really. Sigh...
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Nj
Posts: 195
I think drinking brings up a lot of pain that they try to hide while sober. Instead of dealing with it while sober, they get drunk and then it tears them up even more, and comes out in their actions-but to them it has "gone away" or been masked by the alcohol.
I do believe when drunk people will say things they would never say sober, however-im not sure i believe that everything they say is what they truly mean. I also dont believe their sober personality is completely fake. My grandfather has been sober for 24 years. He is by far one of the most amazing people I know. Did he hurt my mom and uncle and grandmother while he was drinking? not physically-sometimes verbally....but he never mutters a bad word about anyone now. He wouldnt hurt a fly. So I guess I am on the fence. I know when I have been drinking I will say things that I certainly wont say sober. Not necessarily mean or bad things-just things i wouldnt usually talk about.
I do believe when drunk people will say things they would never say sober, however-im not sure i believe that everything they say is what they truly mean. I also dont believe their sober personality is completely fake. My grandfather has been sober for 24 years. He is by far one of the most amazing people I know. Did he hurt my mom and uncle and grandmother while he was drinking? not physically-sometimes verbally....but he never mutters a bad word about anyone now. He wouldnt hurt a fly. So I guess I am on the fence. I know when I have been drinking I will say things that I certainly wont say sober. Not necessarily mean or bad things-just things i wouldnt usually talk about.
Taking back what is mine!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Ky
Posts: 277
Thanks for all the input everyone. I am still unsure on where i stand with the saying. Part of me believes a little of everything each of you said. I just dont know and it really doesnt matter anyways i guess. Once again i think i am decode and make myself believe its bad enough to leave. I know it is but i am easily sweep into his mr nice guy act during the day. I need to writw myself a list of all the bad things he has done to me so i can read and remind myself of all of it when he is being "normal". All that matters is that you are suppose to trust your spouse, to know that they will always be there to help you and you should feel safe with them. That isnt the case here, instead i feel like i have to protect myself from him.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Nj
Posts: 195
sadconfused-i broke up with the abf the other day. I know how easily he can pull me back with his manipulations so I wrote down all the negatives and saved a copy of all our emails to remind myself when he tries to get me back. its sad but its necessary. When I look back at emails from 3 months ago I wonder what the heck I was thinking staying...its just so easy to forget those when he is being mr nice guy.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Real World
Posts: 729
Thanks for raising the topic, I think we all struggle with it. The truth, I think. Is that we all think some things about our sig other at times that we would never blurt out. Add a bunch of anti-inhibition serum and defensiveness and some things spew out that we'd regret.
Think of the ten nastiest true thoughts you could hit your spouse with if you were angry and felt like they were picking in you... I bet most of us have only said a few and regretted it immediately.
My ex was scary - shed find a soft spot and aim for it with increasing intensity and a really evil smile. Gives me shudders... I put up with it til she could not get a rise out of me and focused on my daughter. Then I was out the door with papers filed the next day.
I'm still working on not allowing people to treat me poorly but I take solace in the knowledge that I am changing and that the cycle was broken with my daughter. I let her know why I am proud of her every day and how thankful I am for our relationship. Funny that a woman half my size can cripple me into submission but anything that threatens my babies better be 40 feet tall, have fangs and bring friends if it thinks it will get past me to them ;-)
Rambling as always - my goal is to apply the same standards to myself and not allow emotional bullying. Funny that a 220 pound former linebacker can be intimidated by a 100 pound woman but psyches are more fragile than muscles. I was ferocious in the weight room from age 12-30 and when I need to be intimidating I am good at it... Just pointing it out because I read so many of the ladies here talking about feeling intimidated. Don't be upset with yourself - those of us who basically cant be physically intimidated still crumble under the right sort of abuse.
Final thought on the original topic - I don't get angry or feel the need to balance the score when it comes to things my wife, or my ex for that matter, did while drunk but they are still responsible for it. When u Di wrong and want to give my side without dodging responsibility u start out by saying "there is no excuse for X, and I was absolutely wrong. ...but I want you to know what my thoughts were at that time so that you can understand my motives, not so you will excuse what I did".
I just have to be careful - the unhealthy part of my brain tends to excuse the inexcusable and apologize for the reasonable. I'm learning to stop and ask myself about the situation as if I'm an objective third party and count to ten(days sometimes) before responding in anger.
Glad to have friends here who help me to define what I think and why... Having to articulate it in words forces me to evaluate whether what I just wrote is the rational part of me that overachievers or the fearful part of me that is terrified of conflict.
Thanks to all of you for being a little bit broken too ;-). Everyone is, I take comfort in knowing that I am trying to understand more so that I can grow and change and it's a hell of a lot easier to admit things to ourselves when surrounded by people with similar hopes, fears and ...issues.
Think of the ten nastiest true thoughts you could hit your spouse with if you were angry and felt like they were picking in you... I bet most of us have only said a few and regretted it immediately.
My ex was scary - shed find a soft spot and aim for it with increasing intensity and a really evil smile. Gives me shudders... I put up with it til she could not get a rise out of me and focused on my daughter. Then I was out the door with papers filed the next day.
I'm still working on not allowing people to treat me poorly but I take solace in the knowledge that I am changing and that the cycle was broken with my daughter. I let her know why I am proud of her every day and how thankful I am for our relationship. Funny that a woman half my size can cripple me into submission but anything that threatens my babies better be 40 feet tall, have fangs and bring friends if it thinks it will get past me to them ;-)
Rambling as always - my goal is to apply the same standards to myself and not allow emotional bullying. Funny that a 220 pound former linebacker can be intimidated by a 100 pound woman but psyches are more fragile than muscles. I was ferocious in the weight room from age 12-30 and when I need to be intimidating I am good at it... Just pointing it out because I read so many of the ladies here talking about feeling intimidated. Don't be upset with yourself - those of us who basically cant be physically intimidated still crumble under the right sort of abuse.
Final thought on the original topic - I don't get angry or feel the need to balance the score when it comes to things my wife, or my ex for that matter, did while drunk but they are still responsible for it. When u Di wrong and want to give my side without dodging responsibility u start out by saying "there is no excuse for X, and I was absolutely wrong. ...but I want you to know what my thoughts were at that time so that you can understand my motives, not so you will excuse what I did".
I just have to be careful - the unhealthy part of my brain tends to excuse the inexcusable and apologize for the reasonable. I'm learning to stop and ask myself about the situation as if I'm an objective third party and count to ten(days sometimes) before responding in anger.
Glad to have friends here who help me to define what I think and why... Having to articulate it in words forces me to evaluate whether what I just wrote is the rational part of me that overachievers or the fearful part of me that is terrified of conflict.
Thanks to all of you for being a little bit broken too ;-). Everyone is, I take comfort in knowing that I am trying to understand more so that I can grow and change and it's a hell of a lot easier to admit things to ourselves when surrounded by people with similar hopes, fears and ...issues.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
