MrsDragon

Thank you for sharing this. I think it is courageous for you to face the damage that was done to you by your prior relationship. It is even more courageous to be able to admit that the unhealthy family dynamic did affect your children. So many people turn away from these emotions especially when their children turn into adults; choosing to let go of any responsibility; leaving their kids to flounder finding their way when (like in the case of SadHeart) all they may truly need is acknowledgement of their pain, confusion; willingness to work on the relationship between you.
What I see when I read your post is a woman of courage; and in time as your boys continue to mature I have a strong feeling they will begin to gain a deeper understanding of what your life must have been like during the time spent in that relationship. Your true qualities of strength, responsibility, compassion, and love for them will be what they see shining through; that will be the foundation of the new mother/son relationship.

kudzujean

I could have said exactly the same about my father. Thanks for your posts.

kudzujean

I know it wasn't you; I didn't mean to reply to you.

SadHeart

I've often heard people say that they are angrier with their codependent mothers than their alcoholic fathers and I've talked to my therapist about why that is.

After all, usually the alcoholic did almost no parenting or nurturing and probably did a lot of hurtful damage--whereas the codependent at least TRIED: they kept a roof over the kids' heads, provided food and clothing and entertainment, answered the questions, were there when the child was sick, etc... Maybe they failed at being both mother and father, maybe they failed at fixing the holes left by the alcoholic, maybe they had faults (and even non codependent parent have fault), but they got the children raised, and they provided the little good that the child had in their childhood, and they at least tried even if they fell short.

So why were adult children angrier at the codependent than the addicted parent?

And the answer was that the child was angry according to the level of the promise broken by the parent.

For example, most kids know that the alcoholic parent will not actually parent. They figure out early not to depend on the alcoholic. There's no implied 'parenting contract'. They just try to get what love they can and avoid not getting too hurt. But they expect very little, so they grow up hurt, then angry, then either accepting or indifferent depending on what the alcoholic did give them. Whatever they got was all bonus.

However, the codie parent assumed the role of the parent, and thus a parental contract was formed. The child learned to trust the codie parent to parent, because the codie parent was the main parent. And when the codie parent falls down on the job, even if the codie parent doesn't fall as far as the alcoholic parent, the child is angry. The child put their trust on the codie parent, elevated them out of need to do the job of two parents, then failed.

Also most codie parents don't have the internal skills to deal with children's emotions--because they don't have the internal skills to deal with their own emotions (if they did they wouldn't be codies), so the children are left to their own devices. And they watch the emotional nurturing that they rightfully believe should be going to them, go to the alcoholic parent.

I asked, if the alcoholic parent were unavailable because of their addiction, and the codie parent were unavailable because they ran off and the child was left with the grandmother, would the codie be blamed more than the alkie. The answer was no--unless the codie parent lived alone with the children and then abandoned them: thus entering into and then breaking an implied parenting contract. But if the codie parent offered no more parenting than the alkie parent, the child would hold them equally responsible for the family dysfunction.

How about the grandmother? If the alkie and codie were equally non-parents, would the child be angriest at the grandmother who raised them and failed to take the place of two parents? Again, the answer was no: because society tempered children's expectations of grandparents; they understood the grandparents were going above and beyond the call of duty--whereas children feel parents can never do too much for them.

The explanation made sense in my case. I NEVER expected anything positive from my father; if he wasn't mean to me, I was grateful.

But my mother did hold out the promise of expert mothering: she presented herself as all-knowing, all loving, wise, warm, good, well meaning and utterly dedicated to my happiness and growth. But her actions more often than not didn't follow through.

There was an implied contract of excellent mothering, and not much delivery. Followed by the demand that I ignore the sorry return and praise her mothering. There was gas-lighting and manipulation and blame-shifting and guilt and neglect and covert punishment. It was a confusing and cruel game, that I figured out ultimately benefited not me, but my mother. She was the winner in that game. And I was the sucker.

Did she do it on purpose? I doubt it. Did she even know she was doing it? Probably not. But it makes sense that my anger for her is greater than my anger for my father because she led me to expect more from her--and he made it clear I was to expect nothing. He delivered, she didn't.

LaTeeDa

Never. It's just creepy.

Alcoholic, non-alcoholic, doesn't really matter. What matters is getting married and having children. And, of course, grandchildren.

Of course not. She, like your mother, believes she has done everything right in her life. My relationship with her, as I mentioned, is very superficial. Although she says she loves me (and I'm sure she does, in the only way she is capable of), I don't feel loved. I feel more like something she accomplished. A trophy on the shelf of her life.

Example: If I post one of my photos on Facebook, she will share it with a comment such as "beautiful work, daughter!" Now, why would she use "daughter" instead of my name or just "beautiful work?" It took me a long time to figure it out, and more importantly to figure out why it bothered me. The answer is by using the word "daughter" she gets to take a little credit for it. After all, I am her offspring, so therefore all my accomplishments are to be credited to her, right? Yet, I understand why she does it. It's because she has nothing in her life she can point to that she achieved other than marrying and reproducing. It's very sad, and I actually feel a lot more pity for her than anger.

L

Impurrfect

((SadHeart)) - I have to admit, I only skimmed through the previous posts. I do have experience in this, though. My dad married a woman who was a raging codie - her late husband was an A, was a "wonderful man when he was sober", beat the he!! out of her and some of her kids when he was drunk.

She had 4 kids, they were my new siblings. The youngest died in a car wreck, dad/sm (stepmom) raised her. My sm became an A to deal with the loss of her baby girl. My niece? No consequences for bad behavior, was smoking weed at age 11, sm gave her lortabs for cramps, etc. At about 14 years old, my niece was drinking, smoking weed and staying "with friends" for months at a time. My dad tried to change things but he became a major enabler.

I'm an RA, over 5-1/2 years clean. I live with dad/sm. My niece got pregnant, married, and amazingly, has grown up a lot. She refused pain meds, recently, said "those things hurt your liver!"

Of the three remaining step-siblings, all 3 have dealt with addiction. One to meth (still drinks like a fish), one to klonopin (hates my sm, thinks her dad was awesome..she wasn't beaten) and one in recovery for heroin.

I live with a sm who is f'd up a lot of the time, a dad who has become a major enabler. My niece's "dad" is a raging A, back in prison where he has been most of her life. I am open with her about my addiction, I make boundaries, and though she sometimes doesn't like me, she does know I do what I do out of love. I'm seeing her grow up before my very eyes, and I would like to think that my codie-recovery and addiction recovery have helped her.

I have seen, first hand, what a codependent parent can do to their children. I can't undo it, but I can lead by example.

Hugs and prayers,

Amy

MrsDragon

It is interesting what you wrote about your mother; where she felt like her own parents were watching over her in a disapproving way & waiting for her to fall. I wonder if way back here is when the concept of ‘all being well’ was established? It was a protection mode for her: ‘see all is well, I did not make a mistake’. Perhaps she felt she could never make a mistake? and then it became the same feeling she had with her friends, social group - if they knew, they would disapprove, she would be rejected, left with all her insecurities and failures exposed.

I sense both the frustration/anger & the compassion that you have for your mother. It most definitely sounds like you have been working a long time to heal this relationship, and also to heal the pain inflicted upon you. THANK YOU so much for sharing the analysis of your therapist; I wont quote it here as it was long, but the insight on how a child learns to not expect from the addicted parent; but puts their trust in the other, and then feels the pain much deeper when they are disappointed; that is very enlightening.

I think ‘trying to mend’ is a healthy part of understanding & acceptance, but I also think when you get no effort back like what is happening in your case; and continued interaction causes such pain, then you do need to create some distance. I feel your sadness in needing to make this choice. Your mother clearly is missing out on what could be a deep and caring relationship; hopefully one day she will see this & reach out with willingness to change.

Hollyanne

My internet is really acting up.
Grrrrr!
I just wondered if anyone caught the book or movie, "Prince of Tides" by Pat Conroy?
I was blown away.

It is about a Southern Belle woman married to an abusive horror of a man and how she goes on to leave him for a prominent man but kind of ignores the hideous damage done to her children.

NWGRITS

I have been so angry in my lifetime because the codie half of my parenting was my grandmother, who had lived with us since I was born. Instead of doing what she could to try to protect me, she taught me even more unhealthy behaviors. I was the one dragged off to therapy because I had issues, I was the problem in the house. She could have sent me off to live with my dad, who isn't an addict and had a stable home. Instead, she chose to make sure I was manipulated into staying, because being with my mother was best for me (regardless of her drinking). She swore she was doing her best, and she still insists that I'm unfair to my AM. I know that I can't change my past, so I'm doing what I can to make a better future. But jeez, there's so much she could have done to help. Growing up in an alcoholic and codie household screwed me up more than anyone on the outside could possibly imagine. An addict/codie home is not a good place for kids. They deserve better for the sake of having a relatively normal future.

lillamy

This is really interesting, and enlightening. And explains why my children sometimes act like big black holes of neediness. And why I feel like no matter how much I give or do, it's never enough. And when their father even for a second acts like a shadow of a normal person, they give him such kudos. Because they expect nothing from him, it's easy for him to impress them. Because they expect everything from me, it's easy for them to be disappointed in me.

It's difficult to deal with, from the perspective of the codie parent. My youngest had a hard time learning to swim. Her father was a former competitive swimmer, but he never "had time" so I spent a couple of years taking her to the pool, working with her slowly and patiently until she got over her fear of water and learned to swim. And then I ordered A(X)H to come to the pool and watch her. That's the only time he came to the pool with her. Ever.

Now, five years later, you know what she says? "I remember that time when Dad taught me to swim."

I don't need my children to be grateful to me. I'm grateful that I get to be the parent who parents. And that quote above sort of explains to me why they expect so much more from me. And that's OK.

LifeRecovery

I strongly believe two things

1. It is too late to have a happy childhood, but it is never too late to have a happy adulthood.

2. Hurt people, hurt people.

I think that your effort is commendable in healing yourself and attempting to heal your relationship with your mom. I always think recovery is possible, and I think you are working on healing your wounds so you have a happy adulthood.

Reading about you offering counseling though (and going to offer something again this week) struck me as potentially putting an expectation on how you expected your relationship recovery to go. It felt similar to when I put expectations on my husband for how I anticipated his recovery from alcoholism would go (and that did not work well).

I am not saying that you have to find the perfect way to approach this so you get the answer you want from her....not at all. I just wonder if the way you are considering doing it is not setting you up?

Thlayli

This is WONDERFUL! No addicts in my FOI that I know of but I married 2. My sister and I have only just begun to realize (late 30s-early 40s) that we come from a family that is pretty emotionally detached and and a father who is right about everything and "perfect". He wouldn't call himself that but it's in a lot of what he says and does.

My parents were/are active in our lives and spent tons of time with us so none of this is obvious. Overall they are great parents but there are definite undercurrents of emotional distance. I hadn't heard it put that way before but it is GLARINGLY obvious to me that my parents, my sister and I have a very hard time being emotionally honest.

JenT1968

thank you for your excellent posts.

I wonder though if there isn't also something about what we (society, and children raised emersed in that society) expect from mothers. Do children with alcoholic mothers whose fathers are codependent and stay or codependent and leave think their father's did more damage to them than their mothers?

Because I don't think I have ever read that on here, and kids who are adopted have anger and abandonment and damage issues regarding their biological parents (- and most often from what I've read directed at their biological mother) who quite clearly have never had any implied parenting contract with the child.

There's also something about absence as well: death is one big abandonment, but it's done now and it's final, he isn't saying stuff/not phoning you/sending crappy presents/ gaslighting you/etc now - you have no expectations of him, or a better relationship that meets your needs with him, because it is impossible.

For what it's worth I think lillamy's post is spot on.

garfiild

SadHeart, I think we have the same mother. I am the oldest (and the only girl, and the scapegoat), my middle brother is the golden child, and my "baby" brother - born whem my mother was 43 - is the grandchild she had for herself so she could spoil him sickly.

So, so many things that you say about your family are so, so spot-on. The apologies my mother makes are along the lines of "I am sorry if you failed to understand how great I am in some way, and if your failure irrationally caused you some sort of distress."

My mother stopped calling me 12 years ago, because, she explained, her feelings were hurt when I did not answer her calls (for example, when I was at work, or just couldn't deal with her). So she decided I could call her. And she has never called since. Even when she has known for a fact that I was struggling / hurt / in some sort of danger. Except she calls on my birthday, that proves that she is still a great mother.

As the scapegoat, i had my first psychiatrist/therapist in third grade, back around 1982. Just a few years I came to understand the term "identified patient" - that's what I was. I talked to my childhood therapist when I was in my early 30's, she told me that while I saw her for 4 years (and my mother saw her for roughly 3) she never knew that my father (really both of them) had a "drinking problem" until around the time that we moved out of state. Therapist also told me that my parents brought me to see her in the early 80s because my maternal grandfather had killed himself and my parents were concerned that I suffered from the same mental defects as he did. These were different times, therapist told me.

I was diagnosed (as a child and as an adult) with a severe attachment disorder, which is probably accurate. Thanks, Mom.

I am an attorney, I put myself through school on scholarships and aid, made my own way in the world since 17. (At my law school graduation, she had some sort of emotional crying breakdown to the point that the whole thing became about her. My parents skipped the post-grad dinner because it was "too emotional" for my mother.) In undergrad, when I wrote a speech about how great my father was (severe alcoholic, but a business whiz) she broke down because I did not idolize or want to be just like her (the housewife).

When I told her a few years ago that "there must be some reason why" I struggle so much emotionally at all points in my life, she started crying and yelling at me that "she did the best she could" with me. She still blames me for the fact that I did not prevent this conversation from happening (my significant other started the discussion and I should have "protected" my mother). According to her, my childhood therapist believed all my problems stemmed from her failure to breastfeed me. (SERIOUSLY?) When I talked to the therapist 20 years after the fact, she laughed out loud at this.

According to my mother, she knew I was "different" / "strong willed" / a "problem" from my toddler days, when I refused to lay down to have my diaper changed and when I physically fought being tied into a car seat. According to my mother, I "manipulated" my therapist into thinking that I was not severely damaged and mentally ill - in third through sixth grade. But of course, this is not an insult because it all stems from the fact that I am "so smart" and I was "smarter then most kids."

My mother tells me and others that she is thrilled to see what a close bond I have with my son who is now 13. When I was pregnant, she now tells people (and me), she was terrified that I would be emotionally unable to connect or bond with the child and that I would abuse it or abandon it. The first time I heard her say this, it made me physically sick.

My son has saved my life a dozen times over, because all the best decisions I have made in my life have been for him. I could never seem to make good decisions for my own sake. And every year, I look at him (he is SO much like me) and re-evaluate everything my mother has said about me at that age. Fighting a car seat is NORMAL. Manipulating professional doctors at one of the best teaching hospitals in the country (McLean in MA), as a 9-year-old? IMPOSSIBLE.

I could go on and on (and on and on and on). I talk to her a few times a year and try to put them out of my head the rest of the time. My best revenge and vindication? Raising a child who loves me and who I love back, unconditionally. I don't believe my mother really feels that for me - for whatever reason, I don't believe she is capable.

Sorry for the rant, I know this thread isn't about me but once I got started it was hard to stop. I have never known anyone who had a mother quite like mine.

J

Hollyanne

Garfiild, rant away!
Very interesting. I have looked at my siblings and I and the different personality types, birth order, gender.
I used to be (still am) hurt that us siblings were not closer.
We all grew up in disfunction junction! We should be thick as thieves!
No, very different experiences, very different results.

SadHeart

Gargiild, this thread IS about you. And I'm glad it is, it's supposed to be.

I too was/am the identified patient. This is (per my therapist) how it works (at least in our family). It's called cognitive dissonance.

It's because there are two opposite truths are in conflict in their minds. For example in my mother's case it's: "I am a wonderful, loving, wise, patient parent who has dedicated myself to my children, particularly my daughter." and the secret one, "I don't like/love my daughter."

MRI imaging shows when people have two opposing truths in their minds, it creates tremendous anxiety and confusion--and it also shuts don't the parts of the brain that process logic. People struggle to reconcile the two truths: in my mother's case (and it sounds like in your mother's case possibly), the reconciliation is:

"My daughter is mentally ill, has personality defects, is difficult, etc... so of course, she's hard to love and/or unlikeable. I'm not a bad mother because I can't do the impossible. I'm a victim of her problems, which are probably genetic, not a result from parenting, and I need to set boundaries against her unreasonable demands and expectations."

I was a 'problem child'. As a baby I was not wanted, the result of stupid sexual activity on my mother's part. She was the first person in her family to go to college--she had to drop out. I didn't sleep much as a baby, I was too active (I could climb on anything), I was stubborn and strong willed and too talkative and too sharp. I was not docile and uncomplaining like my baby brother (who was the right gender and born after the marriage and when she and my father were settled in a bit). I was apt to irritate or agitate my father which brought reproach and unpleasantness to my mother.

I don't think she ever liked me and the more I grew into my personality, the less she liked me. Ironically, my brother got into more trouble growing up and did less with his life than I did than I--she just didn't know that he was going out drinking and doing all night trips to bars in other states, etc...

But she did nothing with her life: her reason to be was to be a mother. She cleaned house and 'raised' the kids. She did get a teaching degree once my brother went to kindergarten, but never used it. When I was a young teen she worked in low level pink collar jobs. It's important that she be good at SOMETHING, and all she has is that she was a good mother. (I also think she considers herself a good wife too). She hates cooking which my stepfather does, and has a housekeeper, so pretty much she's coasted in life since her kids hit their teens. If she doesn't have 'good wife and mother' on the top of her resume, she has nothing.

And it's all a pretend. Like you becoming an atty, I turned into something, and two of my three sons love me dearly. (she really did until recently believe they loved her more than me--now she can only convince herself that my oldest the AS loves her more). Neither of her children love her dearly, certainly not me, and my brother has a superficial, pleasant, distant relationship with. He's on her side, but he's not going to dedicate himself to her happiness and well being when she becomes widowed and declines.

I think she resents my achievements; and sort of delights in my failures: my two divorces, my AS estranging himself from me. But what kind of a mother resents the successes of her daughter? So she focuses on the failures and has to remind me of them all the time: but in a 'nice' way, because she's 'nice'--hence the passive aggression.

I'm sure she felt that she was in great danger of having her inherent unloveableness uncovered when she stupidly got knocked up with me and drew the judgmentalism of her parents on her head, and had to drop out of school and cope with an unruly child (I also would not hold still for diaper changes LOL, must be a theme) and an edgy, moody husband and had to face her own inadequacy in coping.

And having me now questioning her behavior is a throwback to her rigid germanic judgmental parents. And she's resisiting the truth with everything she has. She still doesn't want to face her own perception of unlovableness and inadequacy and bad choices.

And frankly she would not have to, if she didn't keep poking at me with her passive aggressiveness. She needs me to be inferior and defective to her but she needs to keep the apparence of a close, happy family and she needs to keep her shameful secrets--and it all plays out in passive aggressive comments and behavior.

Had she conquered that, had she been able to refrain from acting out her resentment of me with her passive aggressiveness, if she hadn't made me feel bad over and over and over in these last years: I would have happily let her pretend that she had been a wonderful mother and moved on. But she's a toxic relationship for me with all her smiling undermining and insistence that I have mental health problems.

So I'm under the guidance of counseling calling her on her BS, putting her in the bind of either losing her delusions of wonderfulness or losing her close happy family. She's not willing to lose her fantasy world, not willing to face her very normal inadequacies and faults--so she's going to jettison half her family (me and 2 of my sons) and explain it all away that she's was unfortunate enough to have a defective daughter with mental health problems--poor dear.

Nothing will change this most like (per my therapist) except for a long period of fraility, illness, and loneliness--a long period of time when reality breaks in on her fantasy world of her wonderfulness. And even that's not guarantee.

So I'm giving her this last chance, then moving on without her. Completely without her.

bluebelle

It sounds like you have a toxic relationship with her. Both my parents are addicts/alcoholics, although my mom was the more responsible of the two. My dad was never around--my mom was partly there. She threw that back in my face sometimes--how she had to give her life up for me, how awful my father was--how happy I should be to have her. She would point out all her sacrifices. She would point out how she was a victim (many times with many men). She would tell everyone about all her sacrifices. It was always about her. That seems to be what you are saying about your mother. I went no contact with my mom for a year. Now, I talk to her every few weeks. I haven't seen her in several years. It didn't change my mom for me to go no contact. It did give me some peace of mind to distance myself. She also seems to have learned that she needs to behave herself when talking to me. So in that way, it kind of helped. She didn't change, but I learned to express my boundaries. My mom is a little bit younger than yours and is an addict. I don't expect her ever to change. I have learned to not take what she does as personally. Take care. I hope you can find peace with this matter.

TakingCharge999

Thank you for this thread.

Warning: I might ramble.


I agree in that its very difficult to heal a wound when it is constantly being reopened.

I did not have an alcoholic dad but he left, first due to work, then due to divorce, then even more due to re marriage.

When ACOAs post here I realize I feel very similar things to them, the main issue we share being abandonment. Sometimes at a very young age.

I also agree about having a role model with such relatively "subtler issues", you never learn what is supposed to be NORMAL. Just now at my 30s I am learning men can actually show up and actually provide good things to your life! Sheesh. My mom has been depressed and still is, I thought that was how one 'lives'...not doing anything, eat, sleep and call it a day.


Although I agree we have to own our feelings and our history as adults, to me this acceptance comes later in the game... for now (for me) just talking about my hurts is a big enough step, acknowledging what happened and the depth of the damage is a LONG process for me. At 30 I am still surprised as to how much pain I still feel due to my dad's physical & emotional absence. Just going "I am angry because X & Y" is a HUGE step in my recovery. It does not necessarily mean I like to be in this state and not planning to do anything about it.

I went No contact with my dad over a year ago. The other day my mom told me he sent a postcard years ago that said "I do not expect you to forgive me". I started crying in the middle of a restaurant...

He himself went No contact with his own dad and only saw him at his deathbed.
The way I see it I am heading to repeat the same pattern. I want nothing to do with him now, and I no longer care if he "feels hurt".

Sometimes he asks me via facebook or email "how have you been?" and I wish to answer "Fine! ...discounting my struggle with depression, the rape & other sexual abuses, the alcoholic and the aftermath, my almost suicidal period & countless traumatic/dramatic/horrible/sad/weird experiences a woman goes through when left by herself in the world as it is today."

He knows nothing about how my life has really been like.

I am tired of acting as if we have a great relationship..newsflash, dad.. you actually have to show up and be interested

Thanks for letting me share.

mattmathews

They say that alcoholism is a family disease. The alcoholic and the spouse are in a dance which is sometimes codependent or abusive, but which is always filled with denial. The spouse is damaged by the relationship and so the children...and then the children pass that damage on to the next generation. When you talk about your alcoholic father and codependent mother, you've got to remember that they were very likely damaged individuals coming into that relationship.
Children are survivors. They do what ever it takes to survive. Those codependent behaviors are learned as a path to survival in their childhood. But it's a strategy that then often fails them in their adulthood. Your codependent mother didn't get that way on her own. She didn't choose to be codependent. It's a survival strategy, codependency chose her.
Unless she's aware of her codependent behaviors and how they are hurting her and those around her, she can't choose to change her behaviors. She's simply not aware. Often we hang onto our behaviors, no matter how dysfunctional they may appear to outsiders, until they fail utterly and completely. In Al-Anon we say: "We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable." We usually only reach that point when our lives have reached such a low place that we're finally willing to admit that the way we are living isn't working.
That's when we are capable of choosing another path. That's when we can choose a spiritual path that can free us from bondage. Your mother is 70 years old. She seems stuck in her old behaviors. They work for her. She may never change.
She's not your problem.
Your problem is how you react to your mother. She's going to do what she's going to do and you're powerless to change her. The only person who can change your mother is your mother.
The only person who can change you is you.
I read today that "therapy" begins when the patient gets tired of listening to their own stories. You're clinging to stories about your childhood, about your mother and all they are is stories. They inform who you are right now, but they don't put any limits on who you can become. Change is possible, it takes courage and wisdom...but I truly believe that change is born of desperation. Only when we're sick and tired of the way we are, are we finally ready to look for a new way of being.

DesertEyes

No worries garfiild, your post is on topic And do rant all you need, everybody here has done their share of looooooong posts ( including me ).

Oh, and for anybody who is interested in going a bit more in depth on the "baggage" from "toxic parents" we have a forum just for that subject.

Adult Children of Addicted/Alcoholic Parents - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

Mike
Moderator, SR