Fighting after counseling session
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Fighting after counseling session
AH and I went to our 3rd counseling session yesterday. Now I find out that he thinks I started getting fed up with his behavior from about the time I got a hysterectomy and became a grandmother (three years ago), and that my frustration with him is because I stopped taking my estrogen replacement. Apparently I told the surgeon to remove uterus and insert backbone.
He claims I never told him that I stopped taking the hormone (I was taking them to control hot flashes, but I don't have them at all, so don't want to take a pill I don't need) I stopped about three months ago, and told him at that time. He swears I never told him. So he takes it upon himself to look up the effects of lack of estrogen, and decided that I need to be on it. I was very angry about this because he does not want anyone telling him which meds he should or should not be on, how much to drink or not drink, what to eat or not eat, but finds it okay to tell me.
I asked him if he read about the increase in risk of breast cancer when taking hormone replacement. He says "no, I didn't know that" I said, "That's because you only dug deep enough to find out the part that affects you" I also let him know that I will worry about my health and he needs to worry about his. He says he was just trying to be helpful, and to do what I want, if I want to end up in a wheel chair due to bone loss. I wonder if he knows that excessive alcohol consumption causes a decrease in sexual performance? Liver disease? And that it can complicate his sleep apnea?
I asked him if he felt that session was beneficial, and he said it probably just showed us that we don't like each other much, don't get along, and possibly never will.
When I asked if his concern was that I will become a burden to him if in a wheel chair, he said "No, I probably won't be around for that, I just meant that after you are done pushing me out, you'd better find someone with good insurance." I am in better physical shape than he is but of course that is because he has to "work his bones to death to make the money we live on"
Sorry, this turned into a long rant. I just wonder if we're wasting our time and money.
He claims I never told him that I stopped taking the hormone (I was taking them to control hot flashes, but I don't have them at all, so don't want to take a pill I don't need) I stopped about three months ago, and told him at that time. He swears I never told him. So he takes it upon himself to look up the effects of lack of estrogen, and decided that I need to be on it. I was very angry about this because he does not want anyone telling him which meds he should or should not be on, how much to drink or not drink, what to eat or not eat, but finds it okay to tell me.
I asked him if he read about the increase in risk of breast cancer when taking hormone replacement. He says "no, I didn't know that" I said, "That's because you only dug deep enough to find out the part that affects you" I also let him know that I will worry about my health and he needs to worry about his. He says he was just trying to be helpful, and to do what I want, if I want to end up in a wheel chair due to bone loss. I wonder if he knows that excessive alcohol consumption causes a decrease in sexual performance? Liver disease? And that it can complicate his sleep apnea?
I asked him if he felt that session was beneficial, and he said it probably just showed us that we don't like each other much, don't get along, and possibly never will.
When I asked if his concern was that I will become a burden to him if in a wheel chair, he said "No, I probably won't be around for that, I just meant that after you are done pushing me out, you'd better find someone with good insurance." I am in better physical shape than he is but of course that is because he has to "work his bones to death to make the money we live on"
Sorry, this turned into a long rant. I just wonder if we're wasting our time and money.
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Oh yeah, and he told the counselor that my social life revolves around just my parents, grandma, children, and grandchild. I don't want to go out and socialize with him because the people he enjoys being around can't seem to socialize with each other unless they have a drink in their hands. Don't I have the right to choose not to expose myself to that?
I used to go to all the functions he enjoys, but I got tired of being around it (long before I actually got up enough nerve to say I didn't want to go). I should have stood my ground much sooner. I didn't, so now I just need to go forward.
I used to go to all the functions he enjoys, but I got tired of being around it (long before I actually got up enough nerve to say I didn't want to go). I should have stood my ground much sooner. I didn't, so now I just need to go forward.
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Be patient with yourself and with therapy, if that's what you choose to keep doing. You guys didn't get like this in 3 sessions and it's going to take time to unravel the patterns and problems that have been created. What your AH said, I can see my AH saying in those exact words.
One thing about therapy is that it is supposed to help you do some serious soul searching, if it's done right. Maybe you guys need a new therapist? Not all therapists or counselors take the same approach. You may want to set a time frame for how long you'll continue to work with this one and see if your husband is open to finding someone new for a month or so? That is, if you feel inclined to keep pushing forward. The question is: Do YOU want to continue in therapy? What do YOU want? And, honestly, I am asking these questions for myself as well, and that's why I am asking them of you, LOL. Soul searching can be a painful process, just take it one day at a time and be patient with yourself.
One thing about therapy is that it is supposed to help you do some serious soul searching, if it's done right. Maybe you guys need a new therapist? Not all therapists or counselors take the same approach. You may want to set a time frame for how long you'll continue to work with this one and see if your husband is open to finding someone new for a month or so? That is, if you feel inclined to keep pushing forward. The question is: Do YOU want to continue in therapy? What do YOU want? And, honestly, I am asking these questions for myself as well, and that's why I am asking them of you, LOL. Soul searching can be a painful process, just take it one day at a time and be patient with yourself.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Yep, this happens. Happened to me a lot. But, how did the session go?
I went to several of my ex's therapy appointments. They were his therapists, not mine.
He would see his therapists 3 or 4 times before he would ask me to go, because I guess they wanted to meet the b...h he was married to. Mine was going for anger issues and because he was abusive. Within 5 minutes of meeting me, they were validating me, and asking him, so what did he change, that they asked him to?
Marriage counseling is really not recommended at this point if he is still drinking.
Just wanted to tell you that yes, after the sessions that I went to with him, he left there as meek as a lamb, but within the 10- 15 minute ride home, all his mind did was to try to figure out all the ways that it was my fault, and he was worse after the session, then before the session.
Also, almost everything your H said to you after the session was very similar to what I heard.
I can't say if the counseling for me was a waste of time, because I didn't keep my mouth shut, I was no longer afraid of him, and I got validation from his own therapist, so maybe it was the worth the money that way, but it sure didn't do anything to fix the marriage.
I went to several of my ex's therapy appointments. They were his therapists, not mine.
He would see his therapists 3 or 4 times before he would ask me to go, because I guess they wanted to meet the b...h he was married to. Mine was going for anger issues and because he was abusive. Within 5 minutes of meeting me, they were validating me, and asking him, so what did he change, that they asked him to?
Marriage counseling is really not recommended at this point if he is still drinking.
Just wanted to tell you that yes, after the sessions that I went to with him, he left there as meek as a lamb, but within the 10- 15 minute ride home, all his mind did was to try to figure out all the ways that it was my fault, and he was worse after the session, then before the session.
Also, almost everything your H said to you after the session was very similar to what I heard.
I can't say if the counseling for me was a waste of time, because I didn't keep my mouth shut, I was no longer afraid of him, and I got validation from his own therapist, so maybe it was the worth the money that way, but it sure didn't do anything to fix the marriage.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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If he is still drinking then it is a WASTE OF MONEY and there can be no results,
other than what you are experiencing.
I question the therapist you are using, if in fact your AH is still drinking, as most
reputable therapists will NOT do couples counseling while one partner is still
imbibing alcohol.
And his going on about hormone replacement for you, is just another way to
divert the attention away from him and the REAL PROBLEM, his drinking.
So you VENT AWAY. That is one of the reasons SR is here, at least in my book,
lol It is a GREAT SAFE PLACE to vent and not hold in the frustration,
and fear.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
other than what you are experiencing.
I question the therapist you are using, if in fact your AH is still drinking, as most
reputable therapists will NOT do couples counseling while one partner is still
imbibing alcohol.
And his going on about hormone replacement for you, is just another way to
divert the attention away from him and the REAL PROBLEM, his drinking.
So you VENT AWAY. That is one of the reasons SR is here, at least in my book,
lol It is a GREAT SAFE PLACE to vent and not hold in the frustration,
and fear.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Your question---"I just wonder if we are wasting our time and our money?". My short answer to this question (based on your post) is YES. Your question suggests that you must be thinking so, too.
I am sure that many other sympathetic members ( as am I) will post about the many, many reasons why couples therapy will not work in the presence of active alcoholism.
Perhaps you can already sense how the A can lead a therapist all around Robin's Barn.
I have to confess---I laughed and laughed out loud while reading about his campaign with the estrogen!!! This is a new one--worthy of being added to the "Quackers" thread! The funniest episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, that I ever saw, was when Raymond was trying to get his wife on PMS medicine at the urging of his male buddies. It almost cost Raymond his life.
I know this is very serious for you, and you are grasping at something to make the marriage better--so I am not making light of that. It is just that without addressing the alcoholism first, it doesn't stand a chance---as alcoholism is a progressive disease that not only destroys the alcoholic (if not arrested by sobriety) but has devastating effects on all those it touches.
I suggest individual therapy is a better option for you at this point in time.
***I hope that I don't get deleted from the board for my twisted sense of humor.
In good faith, dandylion.
I am sure that many other sympathetic members ( as am I) will post about the many, many reasons why couples therapy will not work in the presence of active alcoholism.
Perhaps you can already sense how the A can lead a therapist all around Robin's Barn.
I have to confess---I laughed and laughed out loud while reading about his campaign with the estrogen!!! This is a new one--worthy of being added to the "Quackers" thread! The funniest episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, that I ever saw, was when Raymond was trying to get his wife on PMS medicine at the urging of his male buddies. It almost cost Raymond his life.
I know this is very serious for you, and you are grasping at something to make the marriage better--so I am not making light of that. It is just that without addressing the alcoholism first, it doesn't stand a chance---as alcoholism is a progressive disease that not only destroys the alcoholic (if not arrested by sobriety) but has devastating effects on all those it touches.
I suggest individual therapy is a better option for you at this point in time.
***I hope that I don't get deleted from the board for my twisted sense of humor.
In good faith, dandylion.
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the reasons my exAH had for me getting fed up with his drinking and behaviour when drinking (eventually all the way to divorce), has ranged from me being upset that I have moved away from my family and friends, me having an affair, me having post-natal depression, me being a psychopath, me being overworked, me being on anti-depressants/me needing to be on antidepressants, any and all combinations of the above and more 
and finally me being a machiavellian scheming sociopathic gold-digger who ensnared him into going out with me, initially supporting him so that he would not see my true greedy nature, then fooled him into having children with me, initially refused to marry him, to lull him into a false sense of security, spent 10 years with him, all the time telling him that it was his drinking I had problems with, when actually it was all part of my dastardly plan to end up as a single parent, with a settlement from the marriage that would take me 1 year to earn from my current salary, and beiing responsible for 80-90% of the children's costs/outgoings.
The fact that he drank until he passed out 2 or 3 times a day on weekends was apparently unrelated to me being fed up with him drinking until he passed out 2 or 3 times a day on weekends: it was a mere coincidence that he did the thing I was pretending to be unhappy about.
And I was so confused that I questioned my self hugely.
We also did marriage guidance counselling, it didn't help.
and finally me being a machiavellian scheming sociopathic gold-digger who ensnared him into going out with me, initially supporting him so that he would not see my true greedy nature, then fooled him into having children with me, initially refused to marry him, to lull him into a false sense of security, spent 10 years with him, all the time telling him that it was his drinking I had problems with, when actually it was all part of my dastardly plan to end up as a single parent, with a settlement from the marriage that would take me 1 year to earn from my current salary, and beiing responsible for 80-90% of the children's costs/outgoings.
The fact that he drank until he passed out 2 or 3 times a day on weekends was apparently unrelated to me being fed up with him drinking until he passed out 2 or 3 times a day on weekends: it was a mere coincidence that he did the thing I was pretending to be unhappy about.
And I was so confused that I questioned my self hugely.
We also did marriage guidance counselling, it didn't help.
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I am seriously beginning to believe that our marriage problems can not be blamed on his drinking, but on the fundamental fact that we have different ideas about nearly everything, and we are not a compatible couple. He says his opinion, my opinion, and the law's opinion of being drunk are three different things. I have not seen him "drunk" (in my opinion of what drunk is) for quite some time. However, I still see him as angry at the world, which he says is not true and that I am "reading him wrong". Ugh, round and round we go.
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My AH and I spun our wheels for a year in counseling while he was actively drinking. Finally stopped because even the counselor said it was pointless (wish he'd said that before we spent all that money!). We got nowhere.
Like you, I know that alcoholism is a huge piece of what's wrong, but as I take serious personal inventory I have to admit that the guy I hooked up with 20 years ago and married was not very compatible with me. We are good friends and have fun together and sure there is a lot of love, but it has always felt like there were some big pieces missing for me. I knew what was missing 20 years ago when we dated, but I married him anyway. So yes I do think you can get to the end of all this and see that, drinking aside, maybe it wasn't such a great match from the get-go.
We've been separated for a year now. It's been gut wrenching but there is a big part of me that's relieved that I won't have to spend my whole life settling for so-so in a marriage.
Like you, I know that alcoholism is a huge piece of what's wrong, but as I take serious personal inventory I have to admit that the guy I hooked up with 20 years ago and married was not very compatible with me. We are good friends and have fun together and sure there is a lot of love, but it has always felt like there were some big pieces missing for me. I knew what was missing 20 years ago when we dated, but I married him anyway. So yes I do think you can get to the end of all this and see that, drinking aside, maybe it wasn't such a great match from the get-go.
We've been separated for a year now. It's been gut wrenching but there is a big part of me that's relieved that I won't have to spend my whole life settling for so-so in a marriage.
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Originally Posted by dandylion 
Wow. If marriages between relatively compatible couples can be destroyed by active alcoholism, what does that say about incompatible couples with active alcoholism? How can THAT be fixed?
dandylion.
dandylion.
Having done counseling for four years... seperately and together with the XA... I strongly agree that they must be at the very least sober. In reality the best results are going to be with someone in authentic recovery that you actually LIKE and are COMPATIBLE with.
I would do a compatibility test and if that is bad and if they are actively drinking... save therapy money for a divorce attorney... a good marriage outcome is about as unlikely as getting hit by lightning 7 times in a row.
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so typical for the AH to use YOU for all the excuse for the marriage...its a typical ALCOHOLIC behaviour....
this therapist...does he/she know that A is a ACTIVE ALCOHOLIC?...it takes a good therapist to notice that nothing will work until the A realizes his behaviours in the realtionship....
how about you...? are you in a 12 step program like AL ANON?...this is cheap and better for the long haul in therapy and a marriage therapist...
this therapist...does he/she know that A is a ACTIVE ALCOHOLIC?...it takes a good therapist to notice that nothing will work until the A realizes his behaviours in the realtionship....
how about you...? are you in a 12 step program like AL ANON?...this is cheap and better for the long haul in therapy and a marriage therapist...
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My ex and I did an AA couples group, and though it didn't work for us cause my ex was cheating and I left him, I saw miracle happen in that group.
These groups will only allow members in if both are working a program though.
Check in our area if they have these groups. No cost and much better than therapy in my opinion.
These groups will only allow members in if both are working a program though.
Check in our area if they have these groups. No cost and much better than therapy in my opinion.
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AH claims he knows that his lack of stress-coping skills is the reason we started counseling in the first place. This is because he had been treating me with an utter lack of respect and courtesy, being angry, sarcastic, and a jerk on a daily basis. This happened whether he was drinking or not.
But now in therapy, things are being revealed (I know this is what therapy is for) that show us how different we really are. Especially now that he knows how many times I just went along with whatever he wanted to do in order the avoid conflict. He does not believe that I was able to put on an act all that time, but I did, and shouldn't have. Many times I went along to gatherings because I knew I would be the only sober one capable of driving home and caring for the kids.
Then I started having drinks with him and his friends as long as there would be no driving. I did this socially, not problematically. I decided I didn't like it and even when I did drink a little with others, I would never drink enough to "fit in" as they drink to excess and get obnoxious. This is not the kind of socializing I want any part of, so I choose to spend my time with my family (whom I am very close to, and don't have alcohol problems). So now he is "concerned" about my limited social life. What bothers him is that he wants to go hang out with the people he knows will drink with him, and that they wonder where I am. He doesn't want to tell them that I would rather stay home with a good book than pretend to enjoy being in that situation.
Thanks for listening. Maybe I'm wrong in assuming I know what he thinks, but what matters is what I think, and I think I like me better with a spine.
But now in therapy, things are being revealed (I know this is what therapy is for) that show us how different we really are. Especially now that he knows how many times I just went along with whatever he wanted to do in order the avoid conflict. He does not believe that I was able to put on an act all that time, but I did, and shouldn't have. Many times I went along to gatherings because I knew I would be the only sober one capable of driving home and caring for the kids.
Then I started having drinks with him and his friends as long as there would be no driving. I did this socially, not problematically. I decided I didn't like it and even when I did drink a little with others, I would never drink enough to "fit in" as they drink to excess and get obnoxious. This is not the kind of socializing I want any part of, so I choose to spend my time with my family (whom I am very close to, and don't have alcohol problems). So now he is "concerned" about my limited social life. What bothers him is that he wants to go hang out with the people he knows will drink with him, and that they wonder where I am. He doesn't want to tell them that I would rather stay home with a good book than pretend to enjoy being in that situation.
Thanks for listening. Maybe I'm wrong in assuming I know what he thinks, but what matters is what I think, and I think I like me better with a spine.
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You know, I'm in total agreement with everyone who says that counseling with an actively drinking alcoholic is a waste of money and time -- HOWEVER...
... it appears, reading your posts, that you are getting something out of these sessions: You are seeing a gap open up between you that may or may not be bridgeable (if that's a word). And I think that is a result, even if it's not the one you probably wanted?
At least you know now what you are dealing with. Sometimes, I think counseling can just be helpful because it helps guide a conversation that otherwise (without an objective moderator present) would fall into old routines and roles. If all you get out of these counseling sessions is a realization that, for whatever reason, you really aren't good together and he doesn't seem to want to put in the work needed to overcome that -- then it's worth the money. Because then, if you choose to leave, you haven't left any stones unturned in your effort to save your marriage.
... it appears, reading your posts, that you are getting something out of these sessions: You are seeing a gap open up between you that may or may not be bridgeable (if that's a word). And I think that is a result, even if it's not the one you probably wanted?
At least you know now what you are dealing with. Sometimes, I think counseling can just be helpful because it helps guide a conversation that otherwise (without an objective moderator present) would fall into old routines and roles. If all you get out of these counseling sessions is a realization that, for whatever reason, you really aren't good together and he doesn't seem to want to put in the work needed to overcome that -- then it's worth the money. Because then, if you choose to leave, you haven't left any stones unturned in your effort to save your marriage.
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An active alcoholic cannot truly analyze his own behavior due to the alcoholic mindset. This mindset functions as a judgmental filter for every thing an alcoholic does or says. The judgmental nature inudes secondary feelings of anger, resentment, shame, guilt.
Marital counseling is a waste of money. My A and I went for 18months. It is/was impossible to resolve issues such as emotional support b/c alcoholics are incapable of providing that to another human. Alcoholics thrive on stuffing down their feelings. They sure as heck don't want to deal with someone else's emotions.
Marital counseling is a waste of money. My A and I went for 18months. It is/was impossible to resolve issues such as emotional support b/c alcoholics are incapable of providing that to another human. Alcoholics thrive on stuffing down their feelings. They sure as heck don't want to deal with someone else's emotions.
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Everything I read about what he is saying and complaining about sounds a WHOLE heck of a lot like DEFLECTION. If he gets going on all that you have contributed and can complain to anyone who will listen (sounds like mc is a captive audience) then the less he has to look at himself.
I think that mc with an active addict is totally a waste of time for the healthier minded partner and will lead to nothing but heartache and frustration...
I think that mc with an active addict is totally a waste of time for the healthier minded partner and will lead to nothing but heartache and frustration...
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Marriage counseling experiences really do depend a whole lot on the counselor.
My husband is a clinical psychologist who does a lot of marriage counseling. Granted, he will admit himself that he does it a bit differently than most, but he is not in the least bit afraid of challenging a misbehaving or addicted spouse on his or her behavior and this often gets the couple quite a long way. All too often, marriage counselors tend to work on "communication" and "active listening" while the darn marriage is going straight down the tubes. That is indeed useless, but really working with the couple and addressing the addiction straight on can be very helpful.
My husband is a clinical psychologist who does a lot of marriage counseling. Granted, he will admit himself that he does it a bit differently than most, but he is not in the least bit afraid of challenging a misbehaving or addicted spouse on his or her behavior and this often gets the couple quite a long way. All too often, marriage counselors tend to work on "communication" and "active listening" while the darn marriage is going straight down the tubes. That is indeed useless, but really working with the couple and addressing the addiction straight on can be very helpful.
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