boo

Hi ya,

Do you mind if I ask you some questions about your reply to me when you described how it was like with your A in the beginning? Partly because I am a bit confused about some of the things you wrote.

So, here goes:

1)when you got away from your A for a couple of months to stop obsessing about him, how did you do it? I don't mean how did you get away...I mean how did you just stop thinking about him? "out of sight, out of mind" doesn't seem to work for me-seeing we are in different countries at the moment-if anything, I think of him more because on top of everything else, I miss him.

2) How did you FEEL during those 2 months? I ask because you said you never thought you could do it (that's where I am !)-but you did!

3) Did A try to contact or see you during that time?

4) Is A the person you are married to/with now? I am confused by what you have written.

5) If he is, despite his alcoholism, how did you KNOW he was the guy for you anyway? I mean, how could you separate things out enough to tell?

6) Looking back, why do you think you obsessed about A? Was it worrying about him because of alcoholism? Was it fear?

This is SO hard! For me, half the problem is how much I like him and I know he likes me. The other stuff is a mix of everything-from wanting him to get well, to wondering how things will turn out for us in the long run or even in the next few months, to getting my hopes up and then dashed due to his inconsistency, to being sad at the idea that he might have a relationship with someone else (drinking or not), to missing his friendship...to slowly grasping how sick he must be if he has drank for 3 years straight and has never attained more than a few weeks sober at a time--just everything!

I just rode my bike to a school with a playground and played on the swings and cried. I am so sad about this, and the idea that our relationship/friendship is once again over because he drank last Monday and his dad intervened. I guess it doesn't seem that anyone else has has a relationship with an A where it has been so on again off again due to another person-A's dad this time. You know?

Thanks!!

Doppelganger

Hello Boo (and Jess),

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here. Rasputin and I have a very "now you see him, now you don't" saga going on. I was very interested in the way you phrased something. You called the relationship "on again off again".

Rasputin can't hang around with me if he's using or acting like Neanderthal Man. But our relationship is never "off" in my mind. There have been times when I wondered if it should be. However, any time I've told him to hit the road, the implication has always been "until you can behave". When he misses me more than he's feeling willful and stubborn he shows back up. Except for the brief periods of irritation right before he has to go away, this is more or less fine with me. I don't need him here all the time and I have no "down the road" agenda. I've never wanted to be married and children were a fleeting thought.

I'm wondering if, in your heart, you have ever thought of this relationship as "off". Aren't you really more thinking of it as "on hold"? That works just fine for me. But as Dr. Phil would say "How's it workin' for you?" There are things you want "down the road". I spent some time teasing myself. "It's over unless he... etc." As long as the unless was in the sentence it wasn't over. I realized I was playing a game with myself, and also that it is perfectly okay for me to just enjoy his company when he's pleasant. I don't need to "move on". This could go on until we're 80 or so and it would not upset any plans of mine. That was a very freeing discovery. I get the idea, though, that for you a situation like that would be a big compromise.

People are what they are. What we have to decide is if what they are works in with what we want.

Dop

phoenix

Lets think for a moment.What qualities do you look for in a friend?

I like people who are honest and reliable.I like to be able to trust the response I will get if I call on them.Consistency is a good quality.I tend to choose friends who will not hurt my feelings unless they have a very good reason for it.I like people who have a genuine concern for my well being.People like that make good friends,and I can feel safe returning that friendship in kind.It's a mutual thing.

If someone regularly did things that hurt my feelings,and seemed not to care much,I might not consider that person much of a friend.

Just something to think about.


phoenix

jessieandme2003

I am glad to talk about my individual experience. I will be as honest and accurate as possible. This will be LONG. :-)

1)when you got away from your A for a couple of months to stop obsessing about him, how did you do it?

First, thing I did was fill my schedule. I did not allow myself the time alone on a swing to think and cry. I knew that's just what I'd do. I honestly contacted every friend or coworker I knew and made a date. People I hadn't seen or talked to. A lunch, a dinner, the zoo, a movie. Long phone calls. Invited myself to things. Because I knew I'd just spend all my time in obsessive thought otherwise.

Second, I started talking to people about him more honestly, to force myself to see things the way they really were, and here it back through their eyes. I went over it with brothers and friends and neighbors. I stopped making excuses and told things how they were. We all tend to romanticize our own situations. We are in denial. We don't let ourselves see the bad. We don't want to hear what others will think so we keep a lot to ourselves, or retell things in a nicer light. So I forced myself to face the reality, by putting it all out on the table. I would tell people we split, they'd ask what happened, and I'd get real. Now I know I was probably boring them, that it may have been uncomfortable, but I needed to do it. I had to start hearing the things I didn't want to hear. I had to work to get real, to get out of denial, if I was ever going to believe I could be happier without him.

2) How did you FEEL during those 2 months? I ask because you said you never thought you could do it (that's where I am !)-but you did!

I felt like hell. Even with a jammed schedule I found plenty of time for my obsessive thought. I have called the first couple weeks my zombie period. I had lunch dates where my body somehow maintained the conversation while my mind was still off in obsessive thought. I remember standing at my godsons football game and having no idea what was going on, I was just so immersed in my own thoughts. But I was there, and that forced me to participate at least a little. To not be rude. I had to fake it til I made it.

And as I did it more, I found I participated a little more in conversations, or activities. I started to enjoy them a little. And slowly I found myself maybe getting through a whole movie and realizing I hadn't thought about him. Then maybe a whole evening with a friend. I'd get in my car and realize it. Maybe then I'd go back to obsessive thought during my drive, but those periods of time between got longer.

3) Did A try to contact or see you during that time?

Yes, we were married a year and a half so it was a separation. At first we filed divorce papers. He wanted to get away from my nagging and complaining and I wanted to protect my assets. We spoke for that reason. In the first few weeks I'd say things that made it clear I missed him and wanted him back. He was the one saying it wouldn't work, he wanted the freedom (to drink and be irresponsible and selfish).
Then, after a month of progress, I started talking to him as if it was over for good too. I was going to al anon meetings each week. I was developing my social life. I was learning I didn't need him to survive. I just was lonely and missed him a ton, but I was also starting to face those bad things about him, and beginning to think I could find someone better.
And as my attitude started to change and I spoke to friends as if I were 'almost divorced', some started wanting to fix me up! I discovered many men interested in me. I lost some weight and got cute clothes and found myself feeling quite a prize to catch. THAT was fun.
And, amazingly, as I started to see myself that way, and even started dating, my A started to panic.
I wrote about it on here when it happened, I was stunned. He started to call. He started to talk about 'us' and missing me. One of the forum leaders told me he was feeling his control over me slipping away. It was all good for him when he believed he had the choice and could come back anytime. Now he couldn't, and he knew it. I was moving on. He began to pursue getting me back.

But it had been 2 months now, and I had changed. I worked so hard on my program, and I now knew I wanted so much better than it was. Now I was in control of my own happiness, and I had learned that is how it is supposed to be. I do not need to care so much what he is thinking and feeling, what I think and feel is what matters. I put 'me' first, and I approached his interest with a 'whats in it for me?' attitude.

4) Is A the person you are married to/with now? I am confused by what you have written.

Yes, he is my husband still. He made me an offer I couldn't refuse. He went sober. He started dating me. He started showing me how he would be if we could cancel the divorce. We discussed boundaries and changes and started over. It was amazing. I still kept it real, telling family and friends the truth about what was going on. He couldn't just manipulate me, there were going to be others watching too. I now welcome outside people into my world to help me keep a clear view. As this forum does.

Now I am no where near able to tell you what will happen if he relapses, except I know I am not the type to stay if he goes back to being active. I have been honest with him about that. But I have learned I can be on my own and happy if that is what happens. One day at a time.

5) If he is, despite his alcoholism, how did you KNOW he was the guy for you anyway? I mean, how could you separate things out enough to tell?

He is the guy for me because of a lot of everyday stuff. We love baseball and football. We like to talk through a show and figure it out or tell what we think of a character. We play pool in the amateur league together. We like the same lifestyle, and genuinely enjoy each others company. He loves me in a way that makes me believe I am like no other woman in his eyes. He makes me feel like he is so happy to see me. He never prefers the company of others to mine. He is always in a good mood, and I need that. He is young, handsome and a blue collar worker. I am 10 years older, look incredibly young for my age, and am a computer geek. We compliment each other well in our opposites. I do the brainy stuff and he does the physical stuff. I get serious too often, and he is not serious often enough. Its all the little things. Its sharing life.

6) Looking back, why do you think you obsessed about A? Was it worrying about him because of alcoholism? Was it fear?

Looking back, I truly think I felt I needed to control him to keep him from hurting me. He'd not come home some time, leave me hanging, and it would hurt. Or he'd spend his money at the bar then say he had no money for Christmas gifts. No card on Valentines day or my birthday. He'd be crashed on the couch while I tried to manage cooking and shopping and laundry and cleaning alone. The phone would ring and any offer of a party or time at the bar would have him out the door. I would feel so much responsibility my head would spin and he'd feel none. Yet I didn't want to believe it was because he was a jerk. He was so vocal about loving me, so affectionate, so needy. He'd convinve me I was the one wrong most of the time. So I told myself it was the drinking. If I could control his behavior then it would always be only the good stuff. If I could just keep him home, if I could just keep him out of the bar. If I could just make sure he only had a little money. If I could make him come straight home from work.
After a while you are trying to control not only their actions but their thoughts. You are thinking of what you can do and say to make them THINK this, or FEEL that. To make them 'SEE'. Now you are way in, because that is so codie. You hope to control the actions they will choose to take. Like you are 'teaching' them.
I think it was all to keep myself from being hurt, and just keep getting the good feelings I got from him.
But of course we can't control them, and we fail, they slip out of our control, and we explode. Then we obsess over how we should have done it, where did we go wrong, if we were to do it again what would we do differently? That leads into the pattern of overthinking and overanalyzing everything. Sick sick sick. That was me.

Today I am different. I love him more than ever, in the healthy ways, because he is sober and an amazing new man. I respect him, that was never true before. I admire him. I trust him.

Wait, that has to be said again. I trust him.

Do you know how huge that is? I don't feel a need to control where he is, how much money he has, or what he is thinking. Because I trust only good will come of it. And if it doesn't, and i see a bad pattern, I will see it and NOT accept it.

I give him back responsibility for himself and his actions. And if his actions hurt me, then he is not good enough and I will remove myself from hurt. Bam! So simple now. So damn hard then.

Rainy

Hi Boo, I too would like to jump in and add some comments to your questions, which by the way are great questions and give everyone a lot to think about.

1. my A and I separated last Feb due to his drinking and my inability to continue living such a crazy life with him. we had been apart one other time for 4 weeks when he went thru treatment Sept 2002. at first I was constantly obsessing about him—where was he? What was he doing? Etc etc etc. after some time went by, and I started really honestly taking a look at ME, who I had become, what I had become, who I was living for (him) and what I was living for (him), I began to see that my whole life was centered around him, his actions, and me trying to control everything so that things “seemed” normal. When I started putting my focus on me, even in the beginning when I was still in so much denial that I could be doing anything wrong, it was then that I noticed I stopped thinking about him all the time. It did not happen overnight for me, I had to make a conscious effort not to dwell or obsess until it became more of a “habit” to focus on me and my actions, and let him and his actions be.
2. At first I think it was agony for me. I was so caught up in his actions and his addiction and EVERYTHING was his fault and feeling sorry for myself that I had to be the martyr and take care of everything and keep the family going, pay the bills, etc. Slowly, I began to realize that although he had a horrible disease that prevented him from living a “normal” life, I was just as sick as he was for living it with him and not doing something about it for me, if nothing else. After some time went by, I began to feel alive again, is the best way I can describe it. Relieved is another good word I use. Free from a LOT of unnecessary stress that I was causing by my constant obsessing and codependency issues.
3. Yes, A and I did have contact during our separation and while he was in rehab/recovery center. At first I was very adamant about only seeing him when I felt safe and on my terms. After he went into the recovery house, we made a mutual agreement that we would see each other but if either of us did not feel “safe” we would end the visit immediately and try again at a later date. This was hard for me, because I was still accepting and learning that I played a big part in our troublesome relationship with my codependent ways and when I was being a control freak and he would tell me he needed to go, I would get really angry, I mean really angry at first. Over time again, I learned that I had a lot of changes to make too, kept reminding myself that he might have the addiction problem, but we both played a major unhealthy role and there was a lot of damage to repair and a lot of changes to make.
4. Yes, we are married.
5. I didn’t KNOW if he was the guy for me or not. What I believe is that God intends for marriage to last, so I spent and still spend a lot of time praying—asking for strength when I have my weak moments, when I am sad that things aren’t “perfect” like I envisioned them to be and asking God to show me what His purpose for me is through all of this.
6. Why did I obsess? My answer is simple and complex at the same time. Weakness and the inability to realize that I too was sick and needed help.

Being able to look back and reflect on how far I’ve come has given me the greatest gifts I could ever imagine: self confidence and pride and humbleness. So far my H has remained sober this time, he’s almost to 6 months. While I am very proud of him and tell him often, I do not obsess any longer about what he’s doing, where he’s at, etc. I realize that his stuff is his stuff and my stuff is my stuff. We can be there to offer support and love to each other, but never control or dominance. I spend a lot of my time leaning on God now, for strength-- I finally realized that I could not do this any longer on my own, the ups and downs of not knowing what the future brings, will he use again, will our marriage withstand all the issues we’ve had, ALL of the what ifs, I know that I don’t have to know all the answers right now. One day at a time, sometimes one hour at a time, lots of prayer, and the support of others who understand because they are going through the same thing.

((hugs))

boo

Thanks again everyone. Jessie and me and Rainy, thank you so much for answering my questions. I DO think about A all the time and it is making me sad. I've never really thought I can stop or control his drinking-but now I am getting mad that his alcoholism led to the incident with his dad last week and his subsequent non-contact with me. It hurts that HIS drinking and addiciton creates negative consequences for me while he seems to not have any negative consequences. While that may not be true-he's at least wrecking his liver, right?

I think I would feel so much better if A and I even had one conversation or e-mail about what is going on for US-not what is going on for his dad. The reality is, the last time we saw each other we had dinner and had a nice time together-it was his dad that blamed me for his drinking. Maybe he drank even more after he left where I was staying. I'll never know.

I got used to the idea that he is sick sometime after August when I was there. Now on top of that I feel deceived and manipulated and managed. He told me once before that one of his character flaws is that if he knows something will hurt someone, he avoids saying it. Well, he is hurting me by avoiding me moreso than talking to me about things.

Sometimes I wonder if he inflates how sick he is or his parents do. I know that sounds weird, but when I left in august and found out all about his alcoholism, the big deal was that he was to abide by AA's "no new relationships for a year" rule. It seemed like that was all that he could handle and that he could live with a structure like that to guide his recovery. Then I learned of the internet dating site he was on. I felt like the AA rule had been used to manage me. After the AA stuff, I sent him stuff on recovery and really encouraged and supported him. That's why it hurts so much that his dad is accusing me of being a bad influence on his drinking.
I keep going to Al-anon meetings and open AA meetings 2-3 nights per week. They are helpful yet it still hurts so much. This may sound dumb, but part of what hurts is that everyone in every meeting I go to so far has had it work out with the A they are with. I always feel like the exception. Our relationship this summer was so fun and sweet and I keep thinking how can he act like this now? And how can he act like this now after having a nice time spending time together just a week ago? I want to call him but haven't. I thought if I get the job offer in Dallas that I would tell him. Honestly, I have never ever been this sad about anything (believe it or not)...

I'm just rambling...

Ann

Boo

I don't believe that he has ever painted you any pretty pictures. He is an alcoholic who internet dates and who has clearly expressed, at least by his actions that he is not available.

Keep going to your meetings and take time to do fun things that are not about him but are about YOU. I won't say get over it, but try to get past it. When you finally do and move on, I promise that one day you will look back on this and shake your head and ask "what was that all about?".

You deserve better than this Boo, but it won't happen until you believe that too.

Hugs and prayers
Ann

phoenix

Boo...take a realistic look.Most of those people had some type of solid relationship before they became Anons.There was some form of commitment on both sides.There was a considerable investment of time and emotion....again,on both sides.

What you have had has not yet,and may never become such a relationship.It was a romance,and a rocky one at that.Infatuation feels a lot like love.I've been fooled by it myself.But at some point it either becomes real or falls apart.When it falls apart it hurts.

No matter what you do now,you are going to feel some pain.I hope that in time,you also find some peace.I agree with Ann on this.Someday you will look back and wonder what it was all about.In the meantime,treat yourself kindly.You are a loving person,and you deserve to be happy.

Hugs

phoenix

jessieandme2003

Boo, forgive me, but I feel there is a good chance his dad blames you only based on what he is telling his dad (or not telling his Dad). That is how it is for parents. It is easier for him to let his dad blame you than blame him. It is easier for his dad to belive the problem is something the Dad can control, like a bad external influence. Thay are enabling each other's denial, I suspect.

Pay close attnetion to this feeling, You'd feel that way an awful lot if you chose to get into a relationship with an active A.

I used to feel this way too. I think it comes from the frustration of realizing they hide ALL THIER flaws behind the drinking. Some flaws are not CAUSED by the drinking, but by the selfishness that comes from not being able to focus on anyone but themselves that seems to come from the drinking.
Thank goodness for the no relationships rule, they have plenty of self-help work to do before becoming someone that can give to someone else. Learning to face being honest, to not have an excuse for boorish behavior, to really feel the emotions that their addiction had numbed/medicated for so long. Like guilt, regret, embarassment, frustration.

So why do you want to invest effort into something he obviously does not value as you do? I really think you need to meet some new people and give yourself a chance to get over this. It is not supposed to be that hard when a relationship is new. I agree with what others have said, people do all these meetings and such to help them handle being in a commited relationship that has become impacted by alcohol.

Your relationship hasn't really even begun, and all the signs are there that this guy needs to hit his bottom and then hopefully someday help himself, all before he can be a partner to anyone. He is still in denial, still being enabled, still lieing and manipulating, he hasn't even reached step 1.

Run, boo, run. Please, go on some dates with some healthy guys.