ChrrisT

Yes I think it got a little carried away - related stories good - opinions about discipline not so good.

I thought they were (just) children of divorce and A.

MUCH bigger issues here. And far too complex for...

I apologize if I was out of line.

Best of luck

Chino

Wife2Kids, a couple of years ago I read about the orphanages and hospitals over there, and the deeply disturbing profound effect it was having on the children. I read about it in a psychology magazine.

You're an angel, that's all I have to say.

Learn2Live

Oh, yes, I HAVE heard of this. My cousin adopted two children from Russia many years ago and although I don't think these particular children had RAD, he did tell me about the severity of these issues for these orphaned children. There was a case just recently, I am sure you heard about, where the adoptive mother put the child on an airplane back to Russia, alone. I understand parenting these children can be very frustrating. I am sorry you are going through such difficulty with your child. How many children with RAD did you adopt? Is there anyone who can give you some respite for an evening?

Learn2Live

I would please just like to say (OT yes but I'd like to share): I have no children myself, but I do have nieces and nephews whose lives I have been very involved with since their births. I did spank (not hit, just spanked) one of my nieces ONCE. It hurt ME more than it hurt HER (she just kept on laughing to tell the truth). I felt SO bad about it afterwards that I SWORE I would never do that again. My brother, on the other hand, has two boys. He HAS used spanking to teach his children and they are fine. They are very respectful kids. Now, would they have been AS respectful if he had NOT spanked? Probably. Cause they are just good kids, I mean, how could they NOT be with an aunt like me? LOL

coyote21

As Alice said in another post, I'm tappin' out. I know nothing of this. My bad.

I do know of the pain I feel when my child is in pain, and the frustration of wanting to make it better.


Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

Helenlee

W2K ... I'm sorry you felt I inferred you're over reacting, ... that's not the message I meant to convey at all. I didn't mean to minimize your situation nor imply you & your child don't need help. I was responding specifically to the information you gave in the original post

my son had been acting aggressively toward him for the last couple days. The teachers say he has been sassy. Not sure how to handle this--he has a lot going on right now (he has RAD and PTSD on top of the other turmoil)-but he cannot just use his body when he is angry. I have been working on this at home--he has never done this outside of our house.
& later
I am still in shock that he did this.

I knew your children have RAD & PTSD from older posts. However, based on the above information, I assumed your 5 year old was coping reasonably well at school & I responded accordingly. If you'd said he was killing family pets or sticking a younger sibling with pins, I'd have responded differently.

My intention wasn't to criticize, judge or dismiss you, nor to imply you aren't doing the best you can in very difficult circumstances. When I said "it's very easy to lose perspective in these situations" I was referring to the teacher & the other child's parents & the community in general who sometimes have unrealistic expectations of children & parents, especially special needs children. I hoped my response would convey support for you to not feel pressured to react at all ... rather to respond in a way that made sense to you & your child.

Although I've never had contact with a child from an OS orphanage I have worked with young males, including some born & raised in other cultures, in corrective facilities. These young people are survivors of childhood horror & have RAD, PTSD, ODD & a host of other psychological injuries, & some of them have tortured & killed animals & have assaulted & tortured other people. I also have my own son, who is a high functioning autistic with attachment disorder, ADHD, OCD, ODD & PTSD. Especially regarding my own son, I know what it feels like to be criticized, judged & unsupported. I again apologize sincerely if you felt my post pointed any of those fingers at you.

Has anyone else had problems with their kids to this degree? If so, what did you do?

If I could start again with my child, I would focus very heavily on the inclusive stuff. I have seen & am living the result of isolating & labeling & punishing ... it didn't produce the desired outcome. I'm not proposing the child be allow him to injure others without experiencing consequences. But I do strongly believe at this young age we have a precious window of opportunity to foster a "tribe" rather than a "outsider" mentality & it's critical to fully utilize it. My experience is that when we set up these children to be mavericks they take up the challenge with a zeal in proportion to the psychological injuries they've incurred & the consequences are devastating for the individual & society. That's only my opinion, & I'm not a psychiatrist, psychologist nor specialist therapist. I've just lived it, a lot.

I wish all the best for you & your children ... I hope you're accessing OS adoption support groups in real life or online, so you have the support of other people with first hand experience of the issues unique to you & your children.

stilllearning

Hi Wife,

I think you're an angel too - and your boys are so lucky to have you. One of my friends adopted a Russian orphan last year - he had had five sets of caregivers in his short life. Everyone and their uncle has had an opinion on how she should parent - especially in the early days about sending him to care where he can "mix" with other kids and learn to socialize. Right for most kids but not for him - he's never had a secure attachment object and he needs one on one time with his Mamma to process that any passing adult isn't his new caregiver. Lots of well-meaning grassroots wisdom was being flung at her and her best resource was other adoptive Moms and Dads who had walked this very unique walk.

I am in awe of the love, patience and commitment that you've shown your kids - you are an amazing woman.

SL.

stilllearning

Just wanted to add that Helenlee and I must have posted at the same time - my post wasn't in response tand my friend's baby is two - different scenario than a school-age child.

Hugs,

SL.

NYC_Chick

Wife: I say post here all you want. We are all here to listen! I think it's amazing you are doing all all of that with your children. I don't know anything about what you are experiencing, but I can certainly keep you in my prayers and offer cyber hugs so...(((WIFE)))

Hang in there! You are an angel for your children!

chicory

i would like to say that i was spanked occasionally, maybe twice, in my life. it was a controlled spank, which my dad thought about before doing. those did NOT hurt me. i felt closer to the parent after, for i knew they cared about my behavior and how i turn out.
the things that did hurt me however, were the slap in the face or head, and the verbal abuse from my mom, which she did often. those hurt me forever.
the spankings, did not hurt me. I mean that from my heart.

in turn, i did not slap my children, for i know that is a terrible thing to do. but they did get an occasional spank, and they say they are glad that they were disciplined, and that they do not remember having bad feelings aobut it , except for momentarily.

I personally feel that a slap on the hand, done without love, is more damaging than a light, controlled spank on a bottom given by a parent who truly loves their child, and wants them to understand and remember something very important or critical to their safety.

a child who has not learned the importance of the word NO, may run out into traffic, while the one who has been taught to respect no, may listen to the words STOP and NO- in time to save his life. I have seen that happen. My children always heard and responded to my No, or Stop.
JMHO

chicory

please accept an apology, for posting this, as it has NOTHING to do with the original post- I just got involved for the moment, in the opinions on corporal punishment.
I am sorry.
I totally appreciate the original post, and admire her tremendously , for her dedication to these children. And I am glad that she posted here, for I appreciate learning something about which i know nothing. And such an important issue.
bless her and the children.

HoopNinja

Both my kids have RAD and in very different ways. It does make a difference how many caregivers they have had. Older DS probably had about 10 the first year of life. Younger DS, since he was in the hospital so much, I would guess had over 100. Also, so he could get attention (and I heard this from one of the nurses) he would attract attention of other mom's visiting their children and they would pick him up--but no one permanent. Fortunately (but not always) Russia now has a foster system and in some situations entire villages have created homes for children in the orphanages--providing them with the family they need. Orphans who were adopted from another country have returned to put together vocational schools for kids who are being released-who will accept their help.

Older DS was "attached" within 6 weeks--but anxiously. Younger DS-I was just another caregiver as far as he was concerned--so his attachment was very slow. He also had a number of health problems that had to be dealt with immediately when we got home and I am sure this also slowed down attachment.

Older DS could not stand for me to put him down-sleep was hard because as soon as he lost the body contact he would wake up. Younger DS would shriek when held. He had taught himself how to comfort himself and being held and rocked was so foreign to him. He would fall asleep holding onto the bumpers in his crib. It took him a long time for him to want to be held. We knew he was starting to connect when he would do what we called drive-bys. He would be playing and would stop in front of you just long enough for a quick hug. Eventually the hugs led to being picked up. . .

But he charmed everyone he met--in disturbing ways. I actually had complete strangers in stores try to pick him up and kiss him--he drew them in. Quick funny story. He had speech therapy for awhile and I loved his therapist. She was totally taken with younger DS--but the more often she came the more comfortable DS got with her and the less inclined he was to do what she asked. At some point when he talked about members of our family he would always include her. Me, if I was in pictures he would talk about everyone BUT me. So first he wanted to please his therapist, then he became indifferent and then--well she asked him to do something one day and he totally ignored her for 45 minutes. She tried again a few days later and he told her "Go away, Ms. S, you are annoying me." Here comes the weird sense of humor. I burst out laughing and said-S--welcome to the family! Her response-well at least he got the context right!

Yes, I know about the woman and her mother who sent her 7 year old son back to Russia. She was an idiot--sorry, just an opinion (held by most of the RAD/PTSD community). On the other hand I am sure she was totally unprepared. She used a good agency--I know that agency--but they either did not prepare her for what was going to happen or she did what all of us do--I will love them and that is all they need. Agencies try teach about RAD--but they really don't do a fantastic job--I think fearing people would never adopt if they knew what they were in for. She had already adopted the boy--why she did not just disrupt the adoption so he could be adopted in the US I have no idea. Also, from his appearance he had FAS--which would have made it all the more confusing. She was in no way prepared to parent that little boy--no one had given her the tools to do it.

See, as adoptive parents we go into adoption thinking how happy we are bringing a child into our lives. Read all the adoption stories--it is all about how WE felt the day we saw you, the day you came home. Someone finally wised up and started writing children's books about how our children feel--which is generally extremely frightened. Taken out of the only place they have ever known by people who do not look like the other people who have taken care of you, do not talk like them. Put in an automobile and in strange clothes and taken to a strange place. Here in the US we often put our children in their own rooms. Well, that will scare the hell out of a child who has been sleeping with 20 other kids. We ate Russian food for at least 6 months before we started to phase in good old American food. We spoke to older DS in Russian-to some degree. At the age of 3 he told us to stop. Younger DS hated when we spoke in Russian and would scream. It was not until recently that they both told me they want me to learn Russian--so we are learning some (and more when I can afford a tutor or find a kids group of Russian speaking kids--I think there is one at the university).

And all of this...I did on my own because stbxah did not want to be bothered. "one day you are doing this and the next day you are doing that--I can't keep up". Pbbbbt. Guy would read a zillion books on jazz musicians and history to help him relate to a particular jazz musician but would not open a book about parenting let alone RAD and PTSD. When we did got to the camp intensive--he tried as hard as he could to make it all about him and to draw as much attention as he could to himself.

I am a mom just like anyone else. None of us really know what will be put in front of us--all we can do is decide what we will do once it happens.

I do believe HP will set things the way they are supposed to be. Many people who know me have told me that my sons, my older son in particular, was sent to be with me because I had what it would take to heal him--and most people would have disrupted. I do not know if what they really wanted to say is you can really be a thorn in someone's side and they will give you what you want just to make you go away. Hey-you do what it takes Also, my previous career as a criminal investigator sort of prepared me for some of the more difficult times (with older DS) so I was not in total shock when they happened.

Parenting a child with RAD eventually becomes easier. As they get better, you change. Like I said-parenting older DS and younger DS is apples and oranges. Older DS needs medication. So far younger DS has not. Both have peaks and valleys-theirs are often more extreme but after awhile you just go with the flow (and some days you lock yourself in the bathroom and cry because--right now--I have no respite and I have found no one where I live who can provide respite the correct way--on the other hand, I have trained babysitters and given them my cell phone so I can take an occasional break).

Thanks for your support. Had younger DS color a picture for the boy he hit and write him an apology (no small task since he is just learning his letters). But I wanted him to do something that was an effort. I also would like to talk to the other child's parents--just so they know I did not brush this off.