catlovermi

You can also give yourself permission TO care.

TO get angry.

TO feel the accumulated rage, of stuffing it down, and putting up with it, and bending over backwards all these years.

Don't limit your permissions - stay open. Use your tools and support and let the process unfold. Go THROUGH the process, perhaps with support.

(Note: going THROUGH the process does not indicate it's ok to lose control and become toxic, but rather to allow yourself to have whatever honest reaction happens, and then work through that reaction, and plan forward for your life.)

CLMI

sesh

Well CLMI, what can I say you're reading me like an open book.
I was running away again from the emotions which on some subconcions level I find negative and don't know how do deal with. But you're not letting my off the hook that easily and I'm ever so gratefull for it.
So happy to repport anger is back again, but it's not overwhelming.
Will you be my sponsor?
I've been cheking your stats as I really wanted to read your story but couldn't find anything. I'd love to read it if you feel like sharing.
I can't even figure out if you are woman or man. (woman I think, are you?)
So, to me you are this misterious person somewhere all accross the world, that somehow knows to say all the right things to me, like the angel on my shoulder but the angel that doens't buy my BS.
Thank you so much

catlovermi

I'm sure people have wondered.

I do not put any personally identifiable information online.

Part of my story involves a threatening, through cyberspace.

When I stumbled upon SR, in my agony, I had to struggle to GIVE MYSELF PERMISSION to take and to give online, but not put anything personal out. I still struggle with this, as I sometimes feel it removes my right to post, since it's lopsided and "unfair" to my codie mind that I would read other's stories and not reciprocate with mine. It is perhaps the strongest permission I have had to grant myself, to do this, but I remind myself that I have valid reasons. I also have to remind myself that perhaps some of the things I could share, even in generalities, could help another in their recovery. And I hope others understand.

CLMI

sesh

I respect that. I don't think it to be unfair. It's your right to share as much as you feel like.
Well, it certainly adds mistery to your wisdom and kind of makes it look even more profound
Whatever your story might be, I hope you well and safe, and I hope you're getting out of this place as much as you giving in.
I think the main reason I was asking (apart from being just interested) is that I don't feel too comfortable with receiving help, and with all the help I received from you, I kind of wanted to repay it somehow.
I don't really pray, so I can't say I have you in my prayers but I will definetelly be sending positive energy and positive thoughts your way.

naive

i agree, have the feelings. sit with them. feel the pain.

and do something nice for yourself. something you wouldn't normally do. take a walk outside, light some candles, have a nice soak in the bath, curl your hair...whatever is a little treat.

you're doing fantastic. it's a pleasure to witness your new found discoveries.

naive

catlovermi

Well, we don't keep accounts in recovery. For most of us, the power of recovery is the eventual spiritual awakening... however you wish to define it.

But from a practical perspective, we repay what was freely given to us by sharing our Experience, Strength, and Hope. As we get farther down the road than somebody newer, we find opportunities to share, from where we now are. We hope they can use our shares.

Naive is a wonderful example of this. Read her story. Now, she is a gentle, compassionate, powerful voice of recovery, especially to women in abusive situations. Her power comes from her experience - what she survived, and overcame, through her recovery journey.

If there is anything that comes from me like that, it's also because I've survived, and remember well the pain, and process.

CLMI

Jadmack25

DO care.....care a lot about how you are treated, or mistreated. Get Angry.

Get angry at this creep's lousy, stinking action of leaving HIS jocks in that state for you to find and wash.
This attitude to you and his treating the house like a damned hotel, is rude and pathetic.

Come Friday.....stand firm on that order for him to be out, and if he is still there, toss him and his yukky nickers out the door. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..

God bless

sesh

Thanks
It's just I don't really handle anger too well. Last night I was determined to let myself feel it, and it came over me like a tide. I ended up with a headache and nausea. And it was funny I was sitting here letting myself feel my anger, and I kept asking myself OK I'm feeling it now, so what do I do with it. Maybe there is so much of it surpressed so it's ovewhelming.
And the worst thing is when I woke up this morining the anger was gone and I started thinking maybe it's not that bad and blah, blah, blah. I know it's really bad, but still I have this tendency to minimaze it, so I should educate myself on processing anger and dealing with it.
I thought about the reasons that make me do this and I figure it probably comes from my mum, and how she never let us kids see her hurt and emotions towards my AF, which led me to think what's he's doing can't be that bad as she's not affected by it. So now I'm reacting in a way I took as normal while growing up.
That's another pattern I need to break from.
So, lot of work ahead of me.

catlovermi

This is going to be a very difficult post for me to write.

But my recovery has trained me, and given me tools, to keep revisiting, keep working through something, until I achieve mastery.

The first half dozen times through these posts of yours, my inner mind simply wanted to bounce off what you said... the thanks part. You see, I don't like feeling like I may have hijacked someone's thread. I don't mind attention to what I say, but don't like the attention drawn to me. I don't like the spotlight turned toward me, and particularly if I feel I have any role in doing so, such as this very post.

But yet at the same time, your thread has helped me immensely, in my own recovery. Here I am, forcing myself to return to your remarks and stop ignoring, and start responding to, start INTERNALIZING what you said to me..."thanks."

And I am back, (dang, this means the thread is now at the top of the list, again!) to say to you "I finally heard what you said. And, you're most welcome. And, thank you for your kind thoughts toward me."

Sometimes, in recovery, we learn to address the obvious, that we are missing.

Your thread has given me a lot of time to think about the issues, and my own journey and where I am now, compared to where I started out. It has given me the opportunity to not only see I'm farther than my start point, but to share things from my present place in the path. None of these things were easy skills or likely to happen earlier, for me.

Recovery teaches us to step outside our paradigms, our zones of familiarity and "comfort" and try new, frightening things. It pushes us to keep revisiting something, until we find a paradigm and skills for mastery.

So perhaps, now, you can see the irony, the paradox, of recovery. In sharing for you, I was working for myself, in my own recovery, toward mastery of things I need to work on. The payback is inherent, you see?

"We have to give it away, to keep it." - Recovery saying.

CLMI

sesh

Hearing this makes me happy.
And it aslo makes me realize that when I said I don't feel comfortable receiving help, I always thought that's because I'm too independant, in charge or whatever. But reading your post now made me think whenever someone is thanking me for something I always say: not a problem, nothing to thank me for, it's ok don't worry about it, as nothing I do for someone else ever feels too much trouble for me, it's like the most natural thing to do. But in the same time when someone does something for me I have this constant need to keep thanking them over and over again.
So it's clear there is some dissconection there. So I'm wondering now how come when I help is only natural but when others do it for me is a such a huge deal for me I can never thank them enough. So that's another one I need to think about.

And also I don't feel like you've hijacked my thread. I don't take it to be my thread, I tend to see it as a conversation, from which I'm happy to see we can all benefit and learn something
So do I say thank you now again? I've managed to confuse myself now

catlovermi

This brings to mind an interesting analogy. I have a digital scale, for mailing things. On it, there is a bubble leveler. You have to stare straight down at the bubble and adjust the four feet until the scale is level and then the bubble is in the center of this circle that is marked. When the scale is not level, the bubble is pulled off-center, and the weights are not accurate.

I think as children, we experience things that teach us our value system - for example, how to value ourselves versus valuing other people. In alcoholic households in particular, children aren't really allowed to value themselves properly, they must blend in and not make waves in the midst of the stress and chaos. So they grow up with their "axis" off center (like the bubble), in terms of how they value themselves, versus how they value others. When the bubble is pulled off center, then all of our perceptions are skewed by this, like the inaccurate weights the scale reads.

As adults, then, with this off-balance, they are able to support other people, but not themselves, very well. I think they learn a sort of silence - they don't learn to equate whether what is happening is worth defending themselves against; instead they learn to silence themselves, and not assert their own worth, especially to themself. They are able to give, but find it difficult and unnatural to take.

I think recovery (or therapy) helps us look at things like our value system, and see if we are off-kilter in our axis - if our bubble is off-center, and then look at ways to adjust it. To re-balance our relative value of ourself, versus another person.

And conversely, once we achieve the centered bubble, everything we see is perceived more correctly, and is less confusing. There's a sort of snowball effect.

CLMI

TakingCharge999

In my experience, anger can either EAT me, or PROPEL me.


Thanks for that catlover. It helped me.


Sesh I coudn't read all the thread but I woud like to see you happy and fulfilled, I love your posts.

sesh

He has found a place to stay. We told kids today. My 11 yo D refuses to talk about it, my 6 yo S is angry with me for making daddy leave. I can see their emotions overwhelming them and they don't know how to deal with it.
Than to make things even more better 2 hours ago I started to cry in front of the kids and can't stop. They're asleep now and I'm still crying.
AH was in the bathroom crying too when we first told them, and than he went out.
I keep calling him AH, I want to call him STBXAH, but as soon as I write STB instead of XAH my mind goes to Dead. So that's how I see him STBDeadAH, and not metaphorically, like dead for me, but dead as not living any more. As it's so obvious he's really sick.
So here is me thinking again am I doing a right thing for my kids, it kind of feels it's too late for that. Are they really going to appreciate it later in life that I've chucked thier dad out of the house so he can die somewhere else?
The place I'm in now is beyond pain. At this moment I can see a full picture of what our life has become and yet nothing makes any sense any more.

LaTeeDa

You cannot protect your children from pain. Pain is a part of life. It's completely understandable that they are hurting. You are hurting, too. Counseling helped my children a lot, but it didn't take away their pain. Nothing can do that, unfortunately.

I'll tell you a little about my childhood. My alcoholic father died when I was 12. His death was a direct consequence of his alcoholism. Maybe I'll post the details one day, but the point is, even at the age of 12, I knew that my mother was not responsible for him living or dying, even though she might have thought she was. I was hurt and angry and sad and a bunch of other stuff, but it had nothing to do with my mother. I think maybe you are projecting your own guilt.

Any chance of family counseling for you and your children?

L

catlovermi

What looks like anger in children is often fear. Their world has just been changed, from a known model now to the unknown. In seeing their father removed from the household, they on some level feel less secure and wonder if the same could happen to them, if it could happen to him.

They need reassurance that it IS a time of pain and transition (i.e., a validation of their reality - that it has changed, and is painful and frightening), but that they are safe and will not be abandoned. That this is a change in their life, but doesn't have to be a destruction, even of their relationship with their father. Right now, they do not know this, and they may not know it's possible. To them, it is just the rug pulled out from under their feet.

They need a mental roadmap, so they can start to see a landscape, of what was, what changed and why, what could be.

Sometimes a third party trained in these types of transitions is really a great facilitator, as LTD said about her children's transition with a counselor.

Sending encouragement,

CLMI

Jazzman

I found my mothers body a few hours after she passed away and that is an image that will stay with me. You might very well have spared your children from finding their father and carrying that image for a long time. The sober parent has to make tough decisions that might not ever be acknowledged or appreciated by those that benefited.

1234

I'm sorry you're feeling so bad Sesh. Only you can know, but it sure seems to me like you're doing the right thing. Thinking about what Jazzman said...

1234

Jadmack25

Sesh, you asked him to leave your house because his behavior was not acceptable to you, and not the actions of a husband and father. You made this decision for yourself and your kids, because you are the adult, not them.

His drinking, and it's consequences are his responsibility, and if his health is poor, that is his doing....not yours.
If he drinks himself to death, HE does it whether he is home with you or on the streets, and his choice so far has been to keep on drinking.
Your choice was to NOT be faced with this nightmare any longer.

Stay firm, be strong and care for yourself and for those bewildered children.

God bless

sesh

Thank you all.
I feel I'm not strong enough. I'm panicking and can't think straight.
I'll try to find a counsellor for my kids, but that's not easy over here, as understanding of alcoholic families is not on a good level here, and aslo very few people get divorced. There are few child psicologists that I've heard about, and I'll try to contact them and see if they can see us. But I can already tell my D is not going to go for it, as she has this need to act it's none of her business and refuses to be affected by it. It's going to be hard to make her do something she doesn't want to.
And as for my S, yes I could see it is the fear underneath his anger, because last night he told me: How can you do this? This is wrong. So this means that if I'm not good you'll chuck me out too.
I tried to assure him that will never happen and tried to explain when children don't behave good it's not the same as when adults do it. But he doens't understand it.

And also there is another thing. My AF started getting sick when I was 11 (wow only now I realize it's the same age my daughter is now) and he kept having all kinds of serious health problems until he died when I was 26. All this time my mum stood by him, finding the best doctors, doing everything in her power to prolong his life as much as possible. Soon enough after getting out of the hospital every time he went back to his old life style. She hid her emotions well from me and my brother, I never saw her arguing with him, trying to make him stop or any of similar things I've never stopped doing with my AH all these years. And this doens't make sense as she is not the submissive type. I'm sure she was doing what she thought was the best to protect us kids. So whatever happened I knew I can count on her love and her taking care of all of us.
SO I guess by living through this with my parents it is incarved in me as normal. As a right thing to do. And also, now trying to be honest with myself as much as I possibly can when I ask myself do I wish she did leave him my answer is no.
So I'm wondering what is my exact problem here? To use CLMI analogy is my balance bubble so off-center that can not see things clearly? Is it even possible, when having this kind of childhood to have it back at center? Is there a ultimate right and wrong here at all, or is it just what feels right or wrong to us personally?
Because if it's choosing right or wrong on personal level than I think I'll never be able to know for sure. As I'm so conflicted inside, I can see all these disconnections between what I grew to know as normal as a child, what my adult self is trying to tell me, what my inner child is screaming inside, what I'm learning from all your stories here... and all of it is making me feel stuck.
I don't know if any of this is making any sense to you.
Or maybe I'm just unable to comprehand there is no way for a happy ending here. I keep looking for a way out of this that will not cause pain for my kids. But that's not possible, is it?
Maybe the biggest problem is that my inner child, from what she's learned as normal feels the same way as my kids. So you could say than it is 3 of them against my adult me.
So LTD maybe you're right, maybe I'm projecting my own guilt. I wish I could stop thinking about it and take a step back to get some perspective, as thinking makes me even more confused. I have all these maybes and nothing I know for sure.
I keep thinking about what Coffeedrinker said to me here the other day: If you take the leap the net will appear. I so want to believe it, but I don't. It just feels it's all lost and there is nothing but a pain awaiting for us.

Jazzman

Your H is making choices that will directly result in a lot of pain for all his loved ones. You seem to be assuming the responsibility for the choices he is making. Remember he's the one choosing alcohol over his children and family, not you. As much as you would want to spare your children that pain it's not within your power to do so. You don't have to carry that burden.