Blame the addiction or the character?
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Blame the addiction or the character?
When do you stop blaming their addictions and just resign to the fact maybe they are just evil souls with bad character?
It could be their evil is so hard on them, it makes them turn to addictions to keep the evil at bay?
Could be why some have no bottom when they drink?! There is just not enough to ever fill that void?
Has anyone seen or heard of someone who was an evil addict, but when recovered was no longer evil?
It could be their evil is so hard on them, it makes them turn to addictions to keep the evil at bay?
Could be why some have no bottom when they drink?! There is just not enough to ever fill that void?
Has anyone seen or heard of someone who was an evil addict, but when recovered was no longer evil?
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My son's father. I wouldn't classify him as an "addict" but he was a really good drinker. He was a happy drunk but would get mad and blame me for his drinking and just took care of himself. When we broke up, he stopped and he has been sober ever since. He is a very caring person and father and helps me out anyway he can. We broke up 4 years ago. So yes, It can happen!!
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I was guilty of thinking that doing away with the alcohol would make the problems go away. I was also raised to believe that there always had to be 'blame.' And if I couldn't find something/someone to blame, then it must be my fault.
One of the big shifts in me since recovery has been to try and eliminate the concept of blame. It's the behavior that matters and whatever causes it doesn't really matter. If someone treats me poorly, it doesn't matter if they are an alcoholic, a mean person, PMS, their shoes are too tight, or what. I won't allow people who treat me badly to be a part of my life. Their reasons for what they do are theirs to sort out, not mine.
L
One of the big shifts in me since recovery has been to try and eliminate the concept of blame. It's the behavior that matters and whatever causes it doesn't really matter. If someone treats me poorly, it doesn't matter if they are an alcoholic, a mean person, PMS, their shoes are too tight, or what. I won't allow people who treat me badly to be a part of my life. Their reasons for what they do are theirs to sort out, not mine.
L
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In my worldview, there are relatively few people in the world who are truly 'evil.' Abusers, hitler, etc.
But there are a ton of people who I don't want to share my life with, because they're just a terrible fit. We all have flaws, sure, but that's not a reason to allow people in my life who don't bring anything to it, or who break me down, or who suck more energy from my life than they add.
There are others who are better suited to certain people. A person who's wrong for me might be right for someone else.
When I shifted it down to personal preference -- what's good for my life? what's hurting my chances at joy? -- then it didn't matter whether they were alcoholic or not.
I know a lot of people who are easier to get along with when in active addiction. Happy, funny, relaxed when drinking. When in recovery, and they have to face life on life's terms, and get along with others without the fog of chemicals? Awful people to spend time with.
So I don't. I reserve my time and energy for people who know how to be decent human beings, even without drugs. It really is that simple for me.
Sorry.....no profound answers there!
But there are a ton of people who I don't want to share my life with, because they're just a terrible fit. We all have flaws, sure, but that's not a reason to allow people in my life who don't bring anything to it, or who break me down, or who suck more energy from my life than they add.
There are others who are better suited to certain people. A person who's wrong for me might be right for someone else.
When I shifted it down to personal preference -- what's good for my life? what's hurting my chances at joy? -- then it didn't matter whether they were alcoholic or not.
I know a lot of people who are easier to get along with when in active addiction. Happy, funny, relaxed when drinking. When in recovery, and they have to face life on life's terms, and get along with others without the fog of chemicals? Awful people to spend time with.
So I don't. I reserve my time and energy for people who know how to be decent human beings, even without drugs. It really is that simple for me.
Sorry.....no profound answers there!
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My xah, while not in recovery, is also not evil now. I'm sure he'd be a 'better' person in recovery. People that are alcoholics for most of their lives have not developed their character like most people. It was stalled out. They are stuck. I imagine the amount of work to get past that is enormous and not for the weak willed.
While some people do terrible things, and I would write them off without angst, other people are just so self absorbed and deluded that they aren't fit for relationships (or at least not relationships with me!). Alcoholism certainly magnifies self absorption and delusion but I I don't think those two things make a person evil.
I think my grandpa was a very abusive drunk. He lined his family up along the wall and pointed a shot gun at them more then once. That seems pretty evil. My memory of him is certainly not evil. I never knew the man as a drunk. He was sober (with no recovery program - he just quit drinking) before I was born and he certainly didn't do anything like that. He was just a normal guy. Of course he was old, I also never knew him as a younger man. I do not know the ins/outs/details of his life and relationships but on the surface it seems like a man that was damn evil when drunk and not so much when sober.
While some people do terrible things, and I would write them off without angst, other people are just so self absorbed and deluded that they aren't fit for relationships (or at least not relationships with me!). Alcoholism certainly magnifies self absorption and delusion but I I don't think those two things make a person evil.
I think my grandpa was a very abusive drunk. He lined his family up along the wall and pointed a shot gun at them more then once. That seems pretty evil. My memory of him is certainly not evil. I never knew the man as a drunk. He was sober (with no recovery program - he just quit drinking) before I was born and he certainly didn't do anything like that. He was just a normal guy. Of course he was old, I also never knew him as a younger man. I do not know the ins/outs/details of his life and relationships but on the surface it seems like a man that was damn evil when drunk and not so much when sober.
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A close friend I have is an addict, I always used to think her actions where caused from serious abuse she had an her addiction or brain damage from drugs and alcohol. But I'm not so sure anymore
She seems like she's evil. Like is intentional is her schemes, in her swagger in her talk.
She's been drinking so long, I'm not even sure what she was like before.
She seems like she's evil. Like is intentional is her schemes, in her swagger in her talk.
She's been drinking so long, I'm not even sure what she was like before.
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Originally Posted by Summerpeach 
When do you stop blaming their addictions and just resign to the fact maybe they are just evil souls with bad character?
It could be their evil is so hard on them, it makes them turn to addictions to keep the evil at bay?
Could be why some have no bottom when they drink?! There is just not enough to ever fill that void?
Has anyone seen or heard of someone who was an evil addict, but when recovered was no longer evil?
It could be their evil is so hard on them, it makes them turn to addictions to keep the evil at bay?
Could be why some have no bottom when they drink?! There is just not enough to ever fill that void?
Has anyone seen or heard of someone who was an evil addict, but when recovered was no longer evil?
Sometimes addiction to a substance is a coping strategy to deal with life. I don't see any coping mechanism as evil but dysfunctional. I have plenty of my own dysfunctional coping mechanisms that I need to work on.
I think that there are different degrees of good and evil. For me people are not good or evil (black and white thinking), they range.
Alcohol tends to suspend inhibition eg. the tongue tied talk. If one pushed the envelope one could possibly stifle "moral fiber."
I think evil can be present with or without alcohol present. I think some people are born without conscience (sociopath), and some people continuously stifle conscience with drugs or alcohol, so alcohol is seen as the "cause".
I think alcohol and drugs eventually damage the parts of the brain where the conscience is located and that there is always hope that healing can occur in the ones who started with a conscience who is open to change.
My dad no longer drinks, but he is still an abuser (controlling and manipulative) until it is something he wants to change. I believe that he doesn't know any other way to be. I don't think he has ever had unconditional love. I'm not naive enough to believe that my love could "cure" or fix him. I would like his perspective to change. He doesn't need to stay in the old ruts. My motive in any interaction though is to shine a different light. I don't have ulterior motives to fix or change.
My husband is sober, but his patterns remain the same. <shrug>
I think there is a big difference between someone with impaired judgment and someone with no moral fiber at all. I think that some people have major trust issues with an hp, and some people always choose evil.
I don't believe it is simple. I think one has to be willing-step 6? We need to define for ourselves what is merely a character defect and what is permanent character.
We can only work on our side of the street. Our focus needs to remain on what is or is not acceptable for us.
I believe our hp is the only one who can fill the void in us. From hp comes power to change or not. I can only change myself, and I'm a work in progress.
Thank you for asking thought provoking questions SP!!!!!
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i understand the desire to figure these things out.
but, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter why they are the way they are, yes?
that's why setting boundaries works so well. it helps to keep the focus on ourselves, what we wish to be around.
evil.
i think it's a really over-used word. true evil is biblical. some people believe that when we have bad thoughts, or an addiction, that's satan at work. whether that's true or not, it seems that the label gets used for people that do bad things an awful lot. then there is probably the term "evil" that's simply supposed to describe that: a person doing something wrong, but more serious than crossing the street on a red light.
i'm sorry you have someone in your life that you consider "friend" yet you think of her in this way. and yes, i think that severe abuse can do just what you're seeing. but maybe just let her own her own behavior.
but, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter why they are the way they are, yes?
that's why setting boundaries works so well. it helps to keep the focus on ourselves, what we wish to be around.
evil.
i think it's a really over-used word. true evil is biblical. some people believe that when we have bad thoughts, or an addiction, that's satan at work. whether that's true or not, it seems that the label gets used for people that do bad things an awful lot. then there is probably the term "evil" that's simply supposed to describe that: a person doing something wrong, but more serious than crossing the street on a red light.
i'm sorry you have someone in your life that you consider "friend" yet you think of her in this way. and yes, i think that severe abuse can do just what you're seeing. but maybe just let her own her own behavior.
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I admit, I am still big on blame, only because it seems human, so ego driven. I'm not at the point of working with my spirit alone and not just my ego.
You make a good point Cymbal, when you say about sociopaths, Like any good psych would say, the prisons are filled with addicts who are sociopaths.
like you, my AB is sober but his patterns are the same. His void he thus need to fill and I need to get off "his street", but I do believe the HP can be in forms of friends, family and others.
Who really knows.......
You make a good point Cymbal, when you say about sociopaths, Like any good psych would say, the prisons are filled with addicts who are sociopaths.
like you, my AB is sober but his patterns are the same. His void he thus need to fill and I need to get off "his street", but I do believe the HP can be in forms of friends, family and others.
Who really knows.......
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Originally Posted by coffeedrinker
i understand the desire to figure these things out.
but, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter why they are the way they are, yes?
that's why setting boundaries works so well. it helps to keep the focus on ourselves, what we wish to be around.
evil.
i think it's a really over-used word. true evil is biblical. some people believe that when we have bad thoughts, or an addiction, that's satan at work. whether that's true or not, it seems that the label gets used for people that do bad things an awful lot. then there is probably the term "evil" that's simply supposed to describe that: a person doing something wrong, but more serious than crossing the street on a red light.
i'm sorry you have someone in your life that you consider "friend" yet you think of her in this way. and yes, i think that severe abuse can do just what you're seeing. but maybe just let her own her own behavior.
but, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter why they are the way they are, yes?
that's why setting boundaries works so well. it helps to keep the focus on ourselves, what we wish to be around.
evil.
i think it's a really over-used word. true evil is biblical. some people believe that when we have bad thoughts, or an addiction, that's satan at work. whether that's true or not, it seems that the label gets used for people that do bad things an awful lot. then there is probably the term "evil" that's simply supposed to describe that: a person doing something wrong, but more serious than crossing the street on a red light.
i'm sorry you have someone in your life that you consider "friend" yet you think of her in this way. and yes, i think that severe abuse can do just what you're seeing. but maybe just let her own her own behavior.
I did some clean-up ;-)
I agree with what you say about evil, if we look at it in the biblical sense
However, do believe there are evil souls on this earth and not just people who do bad. I'm very much about the yin/yang. The balance of good/evil and not just people who do bad things.
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"Evil souls and bad character" really brings me back to my childhood, when my mom used to describe my alcoholic father that way.
I am a recovering alcoholic and I have three active alcoholic brothers, two active alcoholic nieces, and one alcoholic nephew.
I can pick one of two maps to navigate all this shite with: "the evil, we are no good and have bad character" map or the "We/they me and us have a disease" map.
When I try to use the bad character map, everything blows up in my face and I am left with the feeling that my only option is to hate myself and hate them. When I use the stop drinking, you have a disease and you can fix it map, things tend to work out a whole lot better.
I am a recovering alcoholic and I have three active alcoholic brothers, two active alcoholic nieces, and one alcoholic nephew.
I can pick one of two maps to navigate all this shite with: "the evil, we are no good and have bad character" map or the "We/they me and us have a disease" map.
When I try to use the bad character map, everything blows up in my face and I am left with the feeling that my only option is to hate myself and hate them. When I use the stop drinking, you have a disease and you can fix it map, things tend to work out a whole lot better.
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I have been struggling with the exact same question. One of the greatest responses I've received right here on SR is "if you sober up a drunken horse thief, you still have a horse thief."
I've been starting to realize that it doesn't much matter to me whether the alcohol came first or the emotional abuse. Even if my AH recognized his alcoholism/anger management issues, and decided to get help TODAY, there is a long road ahead, and I no longer want to be a passenger in this particular vehicle.
As I've been struggling with this decision, I've been increasingly struggling too with my own role in the dysfunctions of this relationship. I am realizing where my own behavior is emotionally abusive...where I am hyper-critical, and where I can be vigilant for his slip-ups so I can go on the attack. I am working to be gentle with myself, and to realize that MY misbehaviors do not excuse or negate his, and that were I to STOP today...things might improve...but not enough, because he is not willing to look at himself, and even if he were, I need time and space to heal.
I'm not closing doors. I'm not looking to go out and date and jump into a new, non-refundable something. I'm just ready for some peace in my life and in the lives of my children. If he has an epiphany, and gets clean and I like who he is in a year....we'll that might be a nice new beginning for my kids, and for me as well...but I'm not going to hold my breath.
My talk is big right now... I still haven't figured out how I'm going to end it, or when: I just know it's the right thing to do for me right now, and it will come soon.
Well...this was written more for me than for anyone, but if nothing else, know that you are not alone in grappling with this.
I've been starting to realize that it doesn't much matter to me whether the alcohol came first or the emotional abuse. Even if my AH recognized his alcoholism/anger management issues, and decided to get help TODAY, there is a long road ahead, and I no longer want to be a passenger in this particular vehicle.
As I've been struggling with this decision, I've been increasingly struggling too with my own role in the dysfunctions of this relationship. I am realizing where my own behavior is emotionally abusive...where I am hyper-critical, and where I can be vigilant for his slip-ups so I can go on the attack. I am working to be gentle with myself, and to realize that MY misbehaviors do not excuse or negate his, and that were I to STOP today...things might improve...but not enough, because he is not willing to look at himself, and even if he were, I need time and space to heal.
I'm not closing doors. I'm not looking to go out and date and jump into a new, non-refundable something. I'm just ready for some peace in my life and in the lives of my children. If he has an epiphany, and gets clean and I like who he is in a year....we'll that might be a nice new beginning for my kids, and for me as well...but I'm not going to hold my breath.
My talk is big right now... I still haven't figured out how I'm going to end it, or when: I just know it's the right thing to do for me right now, and it will come soon.
Well...this was written more for me than for anyone, but if nothing else, know that you are not alone in grappling with this.
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I have been struggling with the exact same question. One of the greatest responses I've received right here on SR is "if you sober up a drunken horse thief, you still have a horse thief."
Yet, on the other hand, if he had sobered up using the 12 steps and had really worked hard on eliminating his self-will, his egotism, his thoughtlessness, he might have still been a strange person, but would have been a lot easier to live with.
I read so many heartbreaking posts here on the friends and family forum and can identify with all of them because I have lived my whole life as an enabler and codependent, and I am just now trying to get a grip on it as I travel on my own journey of sobriety. I had no idea I was a codie to my family members until I started going to AA meetings. The first thing my sponsor said to me was that I am a classic codie. You could have knocked me over with a feather: I never realized.
It brings me back though, time and time again, to realizing how important the 12 steps are. A horse thief would not be able to remain in that career for long if he/she earnestly worked the steps because lying and theft is unacceptable; it is exactly the kind of negative behavior we alcoholics are challenged to change in AA.
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Blame/blameless
evil/good
are paradigms of looking at the world that are black and white.
But real life is much more complicated.
Really, either/or paradigms keep us locked in to a world view with too few choices.
Ultimately, isn't it simply about allowing ourselves to see behavior we choose not to be around and setting boundaries for ourselves that protect from it, regardless of the label or reason?
w
evil/good
are paradigms of looking at the world that are black and white.
But real life is much more complicated.
Really, either/or paradigms keep us locked in to a world view with too few choices.
Ultimately, isn't it simply about allowing ourselves to see behavior we choose not to be around and setting boundaries for ourselves that protect from it, regardless of the label or reason?
w
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
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There's been a few drugs that were out later in my partying days I never tried. Very few though.
I did know what was going on while I took drugs. I can't say that after I became very intoxicated. I never knew what or where I would end up. That's why at the very end, I'd isolate to avoid human contact when, I drank.
I do believe what was said earlier take a drunken horse thief and sober him up, you still have a horse thief.
The alcohol isn't the problem, I am
I did know what was going on while I took drugs. I can't say that after I became very intoxicated. I never knew what or where I would end up. That's why at the very end, I'd isolate to avoid human contact when, I drank.
I do believe what was said earlier take a drunken horse thief and sober him up, you still have a horse thief.
The alcohol isn't the problem, I am
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