Crazy-making: manipulation
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
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i guess what i meant when i said "wrong" is that i have in the past decided that abf was feeding me bs, and then found out that he was telling the truth.
story:
several years ago, i was outside and saw that one of the hanging flower baskets was missing from the hook under the eave on the house. i knew that my xah (being the passive-agressive that he was) got angry and destroyed something that he knew i loved - the hanging basket. i was shocked when i looked in the garbage and it wasn't there, but i spent a couple of days being really irritated by his childish behavior. about two weeks later, i was digging around at the base of a giant shrub under that eave. to my surprise and embarrassment, there was a basket with a dying plant in it, with a broken hanger thingy, buried in that shrub. that day i learned about making assumptions based on what "normal" was in this person's character, and based on what i was absolutely certain had happened. i had to tell him the story and apologize to him for blaming him for something he didn't do.
not a really great example of the gut feeling, but it was the one that came to mind this morning. when they have compromised the trust in the relationship, due to their crap, i sometimes go to the "guilty before proven innocent" assumption. even if they have done a lot of wrong behaviors, they don't always deserve our animosity.
story:
several years ago, i was outside and saw that one of the hanging flower baskets was missing from the hook under the eave on the house. i knew that my xah (being the passive-agressive that he was) got angry and destroyed something that he knew i loved - the hanging basket. i was shocked when i looked in the garbage and it wasn't there, but i spent a couple of days being really irritated by his childish behavior. about two weeks later, i was digging around at the base of a giant shrub under that eave. to my surprise and embarrassment, there was a basket with a dying plant in it, with a broken hanger thingy, buried in that shrub. that day i learned about making assumptions based on what "normal" was in this person's character, and based on what i was absolutely certain had happened. i had to tell him the story and apologize to him for blaming him for something he didn't do.
not a really great example of the gut feeling, but it was the one that came to mind this morning. when they have compromised the trust in the relationship, due to their crap, i sometimes go to the "guilty before proven innocent" assumption. even if they have done a lot of wrong behaviors, they don't always deserve our animosity.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
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I cry for the little one who is hurting so much, deep inside of me.
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
i guess what i meant when i said "wrong" is that i have in the past decided that abf was feeding me bs, and then found out that he was telling the truth.
Coffee, I totally get this, and you are totally right about jumping to conclusions. I agree that taking action to keep yourself safe from hurt is different than taking action against someone you suspect might be trying to hurt or manipulate you.
I guess for me the gut feelings that I hadn't previously been following aren't feelings resulting in actions of anger or animosity but feelings resulting in detachment and keeping a safe distance from hurt coming my way.
This is what I mean when I ask myself what the result of following my gut will get me. If following my gut means treating someone else badly then I probably want to get something more than just a feeling to back it up with. If I'm dealing with a gut feeling that someone I've just met has alterior motives and may be thinking I'm an enabler who will further they're addictive lifestyle and the result is for me to keep a safe distance and find other friends, no need to wait around for proof.
When you saw that basket missing you responded with anger in some way towards your ABF because of your suspicions. You were the judge and you carried out the sentence without evidence that he had done anything wrong only a suspicion. The sentence you carried out may have been minor (again, no one was put on death row over it) but you still felt a need to apologize for your actions.
IMO - Had you been looking at that plant one day and you got this nagging thought that he might do something to it to hurt you because you cherished it, so you moved it to a safe location away from him or gave it to a friend to care for then you would not have been taking an action against him but a having healthy response to your gut feelings.
If I apply that to me - What I had been doing is essentially fretting and worrying over that plant and getting opinions on whether my XABF would hurt the plant, convincing myself he never would do such a thing, and then whammo I find out my instincts were right and I'm devastated when he destroys it in front of me. Rinse. Repeat.
Alice
Coffee, I totally get this, and you are totally right about jumping to conclusions. I agree that taking action to keep yourself safe from hurt is different than taking action against someone you suspect might be trying to hurt or manipulate you.
I guess for me the gut feelings that I hadn't previously been following aren't feelings resulting in actions of anger or animosity but feelings resulting in detachment and keeping a safe distance from hurt coming my way.
This is what I mean when I ask myself what the result of following my gut will get me. If following my gut means treating someone else badly then I probably want to get something more than just a feeling to back it up with. If I'm dealing with a gut feeling that someone I've just met has alterior motives and may be thinking I'm an enabler who will further they're addictive lifestyle and the result is for me to keep a safe distance and find other friends, no need to wait around for proof.
When you saw that basket missing you responded with anger in some way towards your ABF because of your suspicions. You were the judge and you carried out the sentence without evidence that he had done anything wrong only a suspicion. The sentence you carried out may have been minor (again, no one was put on death row over it) but you still felt a need to apologize for your actions.
IMO - Had you been looking at that plant one day and you got this nagging thought that he might do something to it to hurt you because you cherished it, so you moved it to a safe location away from him or gave it to a friend to care for then you would not have been taking an action against him but a having healthy response to your gut feelings.
If I apply that to me - What I had been doing is essentially fretting and worrying over that plant and getting opinions on whether my XABF would hurt the plant, convincing myself he never would do such a thing, and then whammo I find out my instincts were right and I'm devastated when he destroys it in front of me. Rinse. Repeat.
Alice
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
Coffee - You beautiful soul, you've led me to a revelation....
I wrote about that man who helps out around the farm and I kept wondering why I was still ruminating about keeping my distance from him and why he still had me agitated. He's not someone I want to be associated with, my gut feelings told me this and then it was backed up with info from those who've know him for years.
I've not taken any action against him in any way. I am civil and don't go around bad mouthing him at all. I just don't seek him out for conversation and I keep to myself when he's around. Big woo. So what is it?
Well, you've made me see that it's the big B issue. It's the fact that he's mad at me for not being what he wants (a friend, an enabler, a piece of a**, etc). He bad mouths about me to others, he makes a point of being obnoxious if we come in contact with each other. He's making it out to be something I've done to him. It's designed to make me second guess my feelings and feel I've backed away unjustly. But why should I care? It's all the more reason to support my gut feelings about the guy, right?
I've got to realize that keeping myself safe doesn't always support the agenda of someone else, and the more shady the agenda, the more profound the backlash would be if I won't go along with it, I would think.
I've got to remind myself that I've not mistreated the man or made any accusations of any kind. I've just followed my feelings and decided not to let him into my inner circle. It's a new experience for me and it will take some getting used to. Letting myself get hurt to avoid others being irritated and not getting what they want from me or worse looking like big B......that's the old me.
Thanks for helping me grow!!
Alice
I wrote about that man who helps out around the farm and I kept wondering why I was still ruminating about keeping my distance from him and why he still had me agitated. He's not someone I want to be associated with, my gut feelings told me this and then it was backed up with info from those who've know him for years.
I've not taken any action against him in any way. I am civil and don't go around bad mouthing him at all. I just don't seek him out for conversation and I keep to myself when he's around. Big woo. So what is it?
Well, you've made me see that it's the big B issue. It's the fact that he's mad at me for not being what he wants (a friend, an enabler, a piece of a**, etc). He bad mouths about me to others, he makes a point of being obnoxious if we come in contact with each other. He's making it out to be something I've done to him. It's designed to make me second guess my feelings and feel I've backed away unjustly. But why should I care? It's all the more reason to support my gut feelings about the guy, right?
I've got to realize that keeping myself safe doesn't always support the agenda of someone else, and the more shady the agenda, the more profound the backlash would be if I won't go along with it, I would think.
I've got to remind myself that I've not mistreated the man or made any accusations of any kind. I've just followed my feelings and decided not to let him into my inner circle. It's a new experience for me and it will take some getting used to. Letting myself get hurt to avoid others being irritated and not getting what they want from me or worse looking like big B......that's the old me.
Thanks for helping me grow!!
Alice
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
Your A is a drinker. You don't have to be around that if you don't want to. That is your choice. Just as it is his choice to drink.
You cannot change him. Perhaps that is what the friends and family were telling you. He drinks. That is who is choosing to be. You can either accept it and be with him or find another way to live.
Hugs
You cannot change him. Perhaps that is what the friends and family were telling you. He drinks. That is who is choosing to be. You can either accept it and be with him or find another way to live.
Hugs
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jordan, MN
Posts: 91
I agree with all of the posts above. The counselor doesn't sound like she knows about alcoholism/addiction behaviors - or even about codependency!
If it doesn't seem right, it isn't.
Keep your antennaes up. He isn't going to change ... that quickly!! He sent that e-mail to push the envelope ... because HE CAN.
If it doesn't seem right, it isn't.
Keep your antennaes up. He isn't going to change ... that quickly!! He sent that e-mail to push the envelope ... because HE CAN.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Ooh, good catch Jadmack, on the healthy conflict issue, which I missed. I have never heard of healthy alcoholic conflict. Yech (shudder). Here's MY definition of "healthy conflict":
You and your man can't decide what to do with the extra money you now have since he got sober, save it or put it toward the mortgage. Or the two of you can't agree on paint colors, or shrubbery, or which brand of shampoo to buy. Or you and your girlfriends can't decide whether you want to go downtown or out to the mall this Saturday. Or you and your homegroup can't decide whether it's the diner or Dunkin' Donuts for coffee tonight.
You and your man can't decide what to do with the extra money you now have since he got sober, save it or put it toward the mortgage. Or the two of you can't agree on paint colors, or shrubbery, or which brand of shampoo to buy. Or you and your girlfriends can't decide whether you want to go downtown or out to the mall this Saturday. Or you and your homegroup can't decide whether it's the diner or Dunkin' Donuts for coffee tonight.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
About Coffee's concern...I have been thinking about your post a little Coffee and I think the feelings you are talking about are nothing to do with instinct but instead the ways in which we have learned to react to the alcoholic. There is a difference between reacting, blaming, and scapegoating and your natural, protective instinct about what is going on around you.
I think over time we build up resentments and develop bad attitudes about the alcoholic person. We judge and we get annoyed and allow ourselves to blame them for things. We blame them and their drinking for all the bad that happens; the kids got bad grades, the roof needs repair, the car needs to go into the shop. "If only he didn't drink, we wouldn't have this problem." We even blame them for the bad weather. They become our scapegoat just as we have become theirs. It is the nature of the disease.
It can happen in any relationship really but it is rampant with those of us who live with alcoholism; it is so easy to judge the alcoholic. It is so easy to turn our noses up at them and turn our heads away in disgust. I know because I have seen my brother do it to my Dad. So sad. I know because I have done it many times myself in reaction to many addicts and alcoholics whom I have loved and continue to love. To me, though, learning the difference is all part and parcel of our own Recovery and our own willingness to look at our SELVES.
The instinct I am speaking of is the gut feeling you get when trying to relate to another person, in trying to understand what they are doing, whether or not they are lying to us, what is going on in our relationships with them. To tell the truth, if you are working your OWN program, working on your OWN Recovery, all this stuff soon starts to fall into place and you begin to learn how to recognize what is disease and what is not.
Thanks for sharing Coffee. You have reminded me this morning to keep vigilant not to blame.
I think over time we build up resentments and develop bad attitudes about the alcoholic person. We judge and we get annoyed and allow ourselves to blame them for things. We blame them and their drinking for all the bad that happens; the kids got bad grades, the roof needs repair, the car needs to go into the shop. "If only he didn't drink, we wouldn't have this problem." We even blame them for the bad weather. They become our scapegoat just as we have become theirs. It is the nature of the disease.
It can happen in any relationship really but it is rampant with those of us who live with alcoholism; it is so easy to judge the alcoholic. It is so easy to turn our noses up at them and turn our heads away in disgust. I know because I have seen my brother do it to my Dad. So sad. I know because I have done it many times myself in reaction to many addicts and alcoholics whom I have loved and continue to love. To me, though, learning the difference is all part and parcel of our own Recovery and our own willingness to look at our SELVES.
The instinct I am speaking of is the gut feeling you get when trying to relate to another person, in trying to understand what they are doing, whether or not they are lying to us, what is going on in our relationships with them. To tell the truth, if you are working your OWN program, working on your OWN Recovery, all this stuff soon starts to fall into place and you begin to learn how to recognize what is disease and what is not.
Thanks for sharing Coffee. You have reminded me this morning to keep vigilant not to blame.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
"I think over time we build up resentments and develop bad attitudes about the alcoholic person. We judge and we get annoyed and allow ourselves to blame them for things. We blame them and their drinking for all the bad that happens; the kids got bad grades, the roof needs repair, the car needs to go into the shop. "If only he didn't drink, we wouldn't have this problem." We even blame them for the bad weather. They become our scapegoat just as we have become theirs. It is the nature of the disease.
It can happen in any relationship really but it is rampant with those of us who live with alcoholism; it is so easy to judge the alcoholic."
Ohhhhhhhhhh, L2L, I think you are SO right-on about this. In fact, when I read that last sentence I began to cry. A nail hit right on the head about that. I'm very, very sad to think about this dynamic being rampant among us, the pain that it touches.
This feels like the very essence of my self-doubt. This is the place that originates the spur-of-the-moment desires to e-mail, text, phone, anything. The voice in my head says, "I must be wrong, since my A insisted that wasn't what was happening...I have misjudged the situation...even though it doesn't quite add up I'm obviously defective in being able to ascertain this for myself, and my A loves me, and can help me get better at having accurate perceptions."
And then the resentment sets in, because my head and my gut are in opposition: "If my A hadn't insisted it was still okay to have contact with the person they'd had that affair with (since they swore up and down that nothing was happening, or would happen, behind those closed doors, cuz the affair is SO over, but the spouse still doesn't know, and it crosses professional boundaries); if my A didn't drink and act that way, laughing too loud and too long at the movie theatre and insisting "I'M FINE TO DRIVE"; if my A could only see my point of view and REALLY UNDERSTAND and apologize..."
Ugh, the blaming of the A w/o looking at myself, w/o considering the bind I'm putting myself into when I set up my head and my gut that way. It's a complete no-win for myself, I'm totally putting myself into the very battle that I say I don't want to get into with A, and then I fight like hell. I think the battle is within myself. I need to take responsibility for that.
Yesterday I had sent my A an e-mail responding to the offer to drop off an item before they travel for a week and a half. I said let's wait until we see each other at the next counseling appointment (in a month), given the personal work I'm doing right now... So I get a note back that was all chit-chatty and pleasant, and included the words, "Love and miss you." Of course I bawled. It's everything I wanted in this relationship, and exactly what I can't have. My head wants to believe one thing and my gut knows another--and I'm trying like hell to get them to match up, by looking at each issue and situation as I consider both. And then going through the anger at myself for having done this to myself, over and over and over.
Wow.
posie
It can happen in any relationship really but it is rampant with those of us who live with alcoholism; it is so easy to judge the alcoholic."
Ohhhhhhhhhh, L2L, I think you are SO right-on about this. In fact, when I read that last sentence I began to cry. A nail hit right on the head about that. I'm very, very sad to think about this dynamic being rampant among us, the pain that it touches.
This feels like the very essence of my self-doubt. This is the place that originates the spur-of-the-moment desires to e-mail, text, phone, anything. The voice in my head says, "I must be wrong, since my A insisted that wasn't what was happening...I have misjudged the situation...even though it doesn't quite add up I'm obviously defective in being able to ascertain this for myself, and my A loves me, and can help me get better at having accurate perceptions."
And then the resentment sets in, because my head and my gut are in opposition: "If my A hadn't insisted it was still okay to have contact with the person they'd had that affair with (since they swore up and down that nothing was happening, or would happen, behind those closed doors, cuz the affair is SO over, but the spouse still doesn't know, and it crosses professional boundaries); if my A didn't drink and act that way, laughing too loud and too long at the movie theatre and insisting "I'M FINE TO DRIVE"; if my A could only see my point of view and REALLY UNDERSTAND and apologize..."
Ugh, the blaming of the A w/o looking at myself, w/o considering the bind I'm putting myself into when I set up my head and my gut that way. It's a complete no-win for myself, I'm totally putting myself into the very battle that I say I don't want to get into with A, and then I fight like hell. I think the battle is within myself. I need to take responsibility for that.
Yesterday I had sent my A an e-mail responding to the offer to drop off an item before they travel for a week and a half. I said let's wait until we see each other at the next counseling appointment (in a month), given the personal work I'm doing right now... So I get a note back that was all chit-chatty and pleasant, and included the words, "Love and miss you." Of course I bawled. It's everything I wanted in this relationship, and exactly what I can't have. My head wants to believe one thing and my gut knows another--and I'm trying like hell to get them to match up, by looking at each issue and situation as I consider both. And then going through the anger at myself for having done this to myself, over and over and over.
Wow.
posie
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
And then the resentment sets in, because my head and my gut are in opposition: "If my A hadn't insisted it was still okay to have contact with the person they'd had that affair with (since they swore up and down that nothing was happening, or would happen, behind those closed doors, cuz the affair is SO over, but the spouse still doesn't know...
if my A could only see my point of view and REALLY UNDERSTAND and apologize...I get a note back that was all chit-chatty and pleasant, and included the words, "Love and miss you."
if my A could only see my point of view and REALLY UNDERSTAND and apologize...I get a note back that was all chit-chatty and pleasant, and included the words, "Love and miss you."
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
In all fairness, L2L, my A reportedly stopped the affair a few months before we got together (apparently, according to them, because they wanted to start a relationship with me), and then told me about it from the very beginning of our relationship. My issue was with the continued contact in what was SUPPOSED to be a professional setting, but where some of the boundaries had been crossed in a major way. And my A simply "DIDN'T WANT TO" refer them to someone else even though every ethics book in the world would say that this "business relationship" needed to end given the crossed boundaries. Period. Am I judging this? Yup, I am. My A would say, "Yes, this is a f**ked up situation, but I want this person in my life." There were lies by omission when contact occurred, even though I said I needed complete honesty about this (really, what was I thinking...honesty around such a dishonest situation??!!). When I would ask DIRECTLY, the question of contact would be answered (though I still suspected some of those "no, we haven't been in contact" statements were false).
This is a place where my intuition was right-on and I would talk myself out of it. It makes me sick to think about the betrayal and I've shed a lot of tears for the spouse who didn't know...also a response my A couldn't stand...told me I was being SO judgmental. I swear, I ALWAYS KNEW when contact had occurred. It was like a lightening bolt that ran through me. I'm furious at myself that I didn't tell my A "Go finish whatever that thing is, and if you're ever ready to NOT HAVE CONTACT WITH THEM then you have my phone number." I couldn't do it at the time. My A insists it was my responsibility to walk away at that time, and that's true. My codie-self was talking loud and clear, though, and I wanted to talk myself into being okay with this. Couple that with the drinking, which my A also told me about from the get-go, with the statement, "I'm looking at this issue." It really was on me to walk away. I didn't have 1 red flag, I had a f**cking field of them!
I couldn't do it, I couldn't save my A, and I wanted to, desperately. And somehow, last year, I was talking myself into that in a major way. Yuck, yuck, yuck.
posie
This is a place where my intuition was right-on and I would talk myself out of it. It makes me sick to think about the betrayal and I've shed a lot of tears for the spouse who didn't know...also a response my A couldn't stand...told me I was being SO judgmental. I swear, I ALWAYS KNEW when contact had occurred. It was like a lightening bolt that ran through me. I'm furious at myself that I didn't tell my A "Go finish whatever that thing is, and if you're ever ready to NOT HAVE CONTACT WITH THEM then you have my phone number." I couldn't do it at the time. My A insists it was my responsibility to walk away at that time, and that's true. My codie-self was talking loud and clear, though, and I wanted to talk myself into being okay with this. Couple that with the drinking, which my A also told me about from the get-go, with the statement, "I'm looking at this issue." It really was on me to walk away. I didn't have 1 red flag, I had a f**cking field of them!
I couldn't do it, I couldn't save my A, and I wanted to, desperately. And somehow, last year, I was talking myself into that in a major way. Yuck, yuck, yuck.
posie
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
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I've got to realize that keeping myself safe doesn't always support the agenda of someone else, and the more shady the agenda, the more profound the backlash would be if I won't go along with it
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
And this realization just in: I feel like a COMPLETE idiot for not seeing this for what it was in the beginning. For re-reading my words and seeing how I played into it like a totally naive, "just pay attention to me please" 5 year old. I really did make this "decision" (more like a reflex) to get into this relationship from a totally unhealthy place, from a need for "fix". My A was my next relationship fix. I was scared to be alone. I was terrified to consider taking care of myself.
Please, please tell me that some of you can relate to this. My self-esteem is in the toilet around having made this decision (to get involved at that time). The good news is that I'm noticing a shift in my interactions with others, especially since posting that "affair history" this morning. I'm growing really, really tired of crappy situations, and my efforts to involve myself in them!
posie
Please, please tell me that some of you can relate to this. My self-esteem is in the toilet around having made this decision (to get involved at that time). The good news is that I'm noticing a shift in my interactions with others, especially since posting that "affair history" this morning. I'm growing really, really tired of crappy situations, and my efforts to involve myself in them!
posie
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Originally Posted by Learn2Live 
About Coffee's concern...I have been thinking about your post a little Coffee and I think the feelings you are talking about are nothing to do with instinct but instead the ways in which we have learned to react to the alcoholic. There is a difference between reacting, blaming, and scapegoating and your natural, protective instinct about what is going on around you.
I think over time we build up resentments and develop bad attitudes about the alcoholic person. We judge and we get annoyed and allow ourselves to blame them for things. We blame them and their drinking for all the bad that happens; the kids got bad grades, the roof needs repair, the car needs to go into the shop. "If only he didn't drink, we wouldn't have this problem." We even blame them for the bad weather. They become our scapegoat just as we have become theirs. It is the nature of the disease.
It can happen in any relationship really but it is rampant with those of us who live with alcoholism; it is so easy to judge the alcoholic. It is so easy to turn our noses up at them and turn our heads away in disgust. I know because I have seen my brother do it to my Dad. So sad. I know because I have done it many times myself in reaction to many addicts and alcoholics whom I have loved and continue to love. To me, though, learning the difference is all part and parcel of our own Recovery and our own willingness to look at our SELVES.
The instinct I am speaking of is the gut feeling you get when trying to relate to another person, in trying to understand what they are doing, whether or not they are lying to us, what is going on in our relationships with them. To tell the truth, if you are working your OWN program, working on your OWN Recovery, all this stuff soon starts to fall into place and you begin to learn how to recognize what is disease and what is not.
Thanks for sharing Coffee. You have reminded me this morning to keep vigilant not to blame.
I think over time we build up resentments and develop bad attitudes about the alcoholic person. We judge and we get annoyed and allow ourselves to blame them for things. We blame them and their drinking for all the bad that happens; the kids got bad grades, the roof needs repair, the car needs to go into the shop. "If only he didn't drink, we wouldn't have this problem." We even blame them for the bad weather. They become our scapegoat just as we have become theirs. It is the nature of the disease.
It can happen in any relationship really but it is rampant with those of us who live with alcoholism; it is so easy to judge the alcoholic. It is so easy to turn our noses up at them and turn our heads away in disgust. I know because I have seen my brother do it to my Dad. So sad. I know because I have done it many times myself in reaction to many addicts and alcoholics whom I have loved and continue to love. To me, though, learning the difference is all part and parcel of our own Recovery and our own willingness to look at our SELVES.
The instinct I am speaking of is the gut feeling you get when trying to relate to another person, in trying to understand what they are doing, whether or not they are lying to us, what is going on in our relationships with them. To tell the truth, if you are working your OWN program, working on your OWN Recovery, all this stuff soon starts to fall into place and you begin to learn how to recognize what is disease and what is not.
Thanks for sharing Coffee. You have reminded me this morning to keep vigilant not to blame.
Really, it is the right/wrong, good/bad paradigm. It's the paradigm that keeps us stuck. There's no peace in it. Even when we feel right or justified we are perpetuating the snake eating it's tail.
We forget NO ONE needs to be judged.
NO ONE needs to be right.
NO ONE needs to be bad.
We can set boundaries, look at other's behaviors and make choices to care for ourselves. I think it is in these actions (and in this simple, blameless paradigm) that serenity arises.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 394
Originally Posted by posiesperson
And this realization just in: I feel like a COMPLETE idiot for not seeing this for what it was in the beginning. For re-reading my words and seeing how I played into it like a totally naive, "just pay attention to me please" 5 year old. I really did make this "decision" (more like a reflex) to get into this relationship from a totally unhealthy place, from a need for "fix". My A was my next relationship fix. I was scared to be alone. I was terrified to consider taking care of myself.
Please, please tell me that some of you can relate to this. My self-esteem is in the toilet around having made this decision (to get involved at that time). The good news is that I'm noticing a shift in my interactions with others, especially since posting that "affair history" this morning. I'm growing really, really tired of crappy situations, and my efforts to involve myself in them!
posie
Please, please tell me that some of you can relate to this. My self-esteem is in the toilet around having made this decision (to get involved at that time). The good news is that I'm noticing a shift in my interactions with others, especially since posting that "affair history" this morning. I'm growing really, really tired of crappy situations, and my efforts to involve myself in them!
posie
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by posiesperson
And this realization just in: I feel like a COMPLETE idiot for not seeing this for what it was in the beginning. For re-reading my words and seeing how I played into it like a totally naive, "just pay attention to me please" 5 year old. I really did make this "decision" (more like a reflex) to get into this relationship from a totally unhealthy place, from a need for "fix". My A was my next relationship fix. I was scared to be alone. I was terrified to consider taking care of myself.
no no no don't feel like an idiot; you're not an idiot.
you just had to do this so that you would learn something.
you had to do this, so that you would arrive at this place called PAIN,
stay there a little while, like in a cocoon. but then you will emerge from the cocoon posie! (and what emerges? don't make me say it, it's too corny!)
this is part of your process. you are exactly where you're supposed to be.
look what's coming: :day6
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,292
Originally Posted by posiesperson
And this realization just in: I feel like a COMPLETE idiot for not seeing this for what it was in the beginning. For re-reading my words and seeing how I played into it like a totally naive, "just pay attention to me please" 5 year old. I really did make this "decision" (more like a reflex) to get into this relationship from a totally unhealthy place, from a need for "fix". My A was my next relationship fix. I was scared to be alone. I was terrified to consider taking care of myself.
Please, please tell me that some of you can relate to this. My self-esteem is in the toilet around having made this decision (to get involved at that time). The good news is that I'm noticing a shift in my interactions with others, especially since posting that "affair history" this morning. I'm growing really, really tired of crappy situations, and my efforts to involve myself in them!
posie
Please, please tell me that some of you can relate to this. My self-esteem is in the toilet around having made this decision (to get involved at that time). The good news is that I'm noticing a shift in my interactions with others, especially since posting that "affair history" this morning. I'm growing really, really tired of crappy situations, and my efforts to involve myself in them!
posie
Your honesty and openess is amazing. It's helping me see some sh&t in my life as well.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,292
Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice
I'm with L2L on trusting my instincts.
My experience has been much like yours in that I have had this sensation deep inside that an interaction is manipulative or that I'm being challenged or pushed into something unhealthy for me at times and yet somehow I will always find someone (maybe my XABF, maybe a friend, maybe family) to say "oh now really, that's just a coincidence" or "you're just reading into it" etc, etc, etc. I used to think I was crazy because I was always looking at things differently than those I sought advice from. Sadly, though, in the end my gut instincts were right and I got hurt time and time again. All those helpful Hannahs weren't shouldering the blame either because, after all, it was my choice in how I proceeded. They were just trying to help.
I have come to understand after all these years of crazy making, that while I think I'm seeking out second opinions to validate these gut feelings, I have actually been doing the oposite. In reality, I am actually drawn to the opinions the turn me AWAY from what I really think is wrong. If everyone says there's no real problem, then all the hurt will go away, right?
These days, I have to push myself to follow my feelings. My feelings aren't putting anyone on death row. If I'm wrong in my gut about someone being unhealthy to be around, then I'm wrong. It's not going to kill someone because I don't feel comfortable around them. It's just not. There's a man who comes around to help out on the farm and I don't like him. I just don't. I've kept my distance and he's been annoyed by that. Lo' and behold I've been finding out more info from those who've known him that he's not the good old guy he pretends to be. He's got a past with drug use, and being a cad to women. He's immature and a hot head. Now, I may not have been able to pin all these things down about him when we were first introduced, but I knew there was something I didn't like about him. I've been called a big B for not giving him a chance. A chance for what? I don't have to let unhealthy people prove to me they are unhealthy for me to be around. It's okay to forgoe the hurt and just step back from the start. He hasn't been hauled away by the authorities because I'm not his friend.
There will always be those to see the other side of an issue. It's the devil's advocate as they say. Maybe for a time, leave these folks out of your decision making, trust your first impressions, and see how things go. You may know a whole lot than you think you do about what's a healthy path for you and what isn't.
Alice
My experience has been much like yours in that I have had this sensation deep inside that an interaction is manipulative or that I'm being challenged or pushed into something unhealthy for me at times and yet somehow I will always find someone (maybe my XABF, maybe a friend, maybe family) to say "oh now really, that's just a coincidence" or "you're just reading into it" etc, etc, etc. I used to think I was crazy because I was always looking at things differently than those I sought advice from. Sadly, though, in the end my gut instincts were right and I got hurt time and time again. All those helpful Hannahs weren't shouldering the blame either because, after all, it was my choice in how I proceeded. They were just trying to help.
I have come to understand after all these years of crazy making, that while I think I'm seeking out second opinions to validate these gut feelings, I have actually been doing the oposite. In reality, I am actually drawn to the opinions the turn me AWAY from what I really think is wrong. If everyone says there's no real problem, then all the hurt will go away, right?
These days, I have to push myself to follow my feelings. My feelings aren't putting anyone on death row. If I'm wrong in my gut about someone being unhealthy to be around, then I'm wrong. It's not going to kill someone because I don't feel comfortable around them. It's just not. There's a man who comes around to help out on the farm and I don't like him. I just don't. I've kept my distance and he's been annoyed by that. Lo' and behold I've been finding out more info from those who've known him that he's not the good old guy he pretends to be. He's got a past with drug use, and being a cad to women. He's immature and a hot head. Now, I may not have been able to pin all these things down about him when we were first introduced, but I knew there was something I didn't like about him. I've been called a big B for not giving him a chance. A chance for what? I don't have to let unhealthy people prove to me they are unhealthy for me to be around. It's okay to forgoe the hurt and just step back from the start. He hasn't been hauled away by the authorities because I'm not his friend.
There will always be those to see the other side of an issue. It's the devil's advocate as they say. Maybe for a time, leave these folks out of your decision making, trust your first impressions, and see how things go. You may know a whole lot than you think you do about what's a healthy path for you and what isn't.
Alice
This is what I feel but just never found the right words to use to describe it.
My mind is too lost in thoughts, thank you for making it clear :-)
and this
I have come to understand after all these years of crazy making, that while I think I'm seeking out second opinions to validate these gut feelings, I have actually been doing the oposite. In reality, I am actually drawn to the opinions the turn me AWAY from what I really think is wrong. If everyone says there's no real problem, then all the hurt will go away, right?
I do the exact same thing. wow!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
Aw, you guys are the BEST. Yes, wifeofa, the self-judgment...I see how I play into that, same thing, different angle. I see that this is gonna take some time to deal with. Coffee, I was grinning over here with those wonderful words and that smiley gift! Thanks, I needed that. Duped and Summerpeach, thanks for your words and for saying you've been there, done that. I'm sorry for your pain, but I have to admit that I feel better hearing that I'm not alone. At least we have each other in the midst of all of this.
I feel better, but admittedly I'm still upset with myself...WHY did I do this to myself???!!! On the other hand I'm learning, as coffee says, from the pain. I know I still need to be in this place but it's not comfortable, that's for sure.
I know that I never, ever want to compromise myself, my integrity and my partnership goals like this EVER AGAIN. What a mess it all feels like.
I'm so thankful for all of you.
posie
I feel better, but admittedly I'm still upset with myself...WHY did I do this to myself???!!! On the other hand I'm learning, as coffee says, from the pain. I know I still need to be in this place but it's not comfortable, that's for sure.
I know that I never, ever want to compromise myself, my integrity and my partnership goals like this EVER AGAIN. What a mess it all feels like.
I'm so thankful for all of you.
posie
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