My King of Denial AH
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
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My King of Denial AH
Holy Smokes!
I just got off the phone with my AH.
I'm still in another state on a work trip, but the park I will work at this summer wants me to commit now. I decided to call my AH to share with him that I am going and my reasons, before I committed.
You should know he has been back to happy, happy AH. In fact, he has been eerily positive on the phone. He said earlier today that if I decided to go away for the summer that it would be GOOD for us to be apart.
When I replied I thought it might be neutral, but not necessarily good, he said, "If we are going to choose to be apart, why not make it good?"
I have felt like, "Who is this stranger?" But, who am I to argue with positive man?
Tonight, in an extended fashion, I told him that because of where we are at with children (I said 3 months ago that I didn't want kids unless he got help with alcoholism and was willing to work with me in our communciation issues), I felt going to the park was in my best interest.
He began this crazy mind trip where he said he didn't know what I was talking about. Even after I referenced the "day I shared my concerns about his drinking", he said he didn't know what conversation I was talking about. He acted like he had no recollection that I said I wouldn't have kids. He totally denied saying he did not want to change or talk about anything "wrong". He said I was putting snippets of non-related conversations together to come to erroneous conclusions about his feelings.
When I started to get very specific about exactly which conversation I was referencing, (the one where I let him know I had found the 16 bottles of wine and figured out he had been hiding and lying...)he, eventually, responded to me, showing he did know. He then said he felt he had discussed it openly and thoroughly and I was just trying to dig up the past and smear his nose in the fact that he is a jerk, wrong, bad, worthless, etc.
When I said I was very interested in hearing how he DID feel, he said he was "too angry at me" to tell me.
Boy, he really had me telling myself, "You are not crazy. You are NOT crazy!" Just so my head would not EXPLODE in contradiction and confusion and infuriation!!!
I was so worked up I was shaking with a splitting headache when he hung up.
It took 20 minutes to talk myself down. (deep breaths. deep breaths.)
I am seeing more and more what a black and white world he lives in, to the point of...disorder.
His posititivity has been fantasy-land, deny all problems, extra happy-world. Similarly, his dark space is unreal, too. It is ALL dark, awful, doomsday-world.
The two sides of him are, it seems at this point, irreconcilable. The dark side is very frightening for him. For me to talk about it is to hate him, want to divorce him, etc. To bring anything up related to it makes him fly back to his crazy, dark, angry, shut down, pushing away side.
I realize how I wanted to live in the happy-land with him. I was happy to be there and pretend there were no problems. It felt safe with two of us playing happy pretend land together.
I really jacked up the whole routine when I started living in reality-land.
There is some comfort in how extreme he is now. Only because happy land AH is so alluring. At least this side has me say, "Houston, we have a problem!" and stay present to that.
I am feeling like this marriage is impossible. How in the world could this relationship work??!?
I go back home next week. We'll see where I and he is at then.
Whew.
w
I just got off the phone with my AH.
I'm still in another state on a work trip, but the park I will work at this summer wants me to commit now. I decided to call my AH to share with him that I am going and my reasons, before I committed.
You should know he has been back to happy, happy AH. In fact, he has been eerily positive on the phone. He said earlier today that if I decided to go away for the summer that it would be GOOD for us to be apart.
When I replied I thought it might be neutral, but not necessarily good, he said, "If we are going to choose to be apart, why not make it good?"
I have felt like, "Who is this stranger?" But, who am I to argue with positive man?
Tonight, in an extended fashion, I told him that because of where we are at with children (I said 3 months ago that I didn't want kids unless he got help with alcoholism and was willing to work with me in our communciation issues), I felt going to the park was in my best interest.
He began this crazy mind trip where he said he didn't know what I was talking about. Even after I referenced the "day I shared my concerns about his drinking", he said he didn't know what conversation I was talking about. He acted like he had no recollection that I said I wouldn't have kids. He totally denied saying he did not want to change or talk about anything "wrong". He said I was putting snippets of non-related conversations together to come to erroneous conclusions about his feelings.
When I started to get very specific about exactly which conversation I was referencing, (the one where I let him know I had found the 16 bottles of wine and figured out he had been hiding and lying...)he, eventually, responded to me, showing he did know. He then said he felt he had discussed it openly and thoroughly and I was just trying to dig up the past and smear his nose in the fact that he is a jerk, wrong, bad, worthless, etc.
When I said I was very interested in hearing how he DID feel, he said he was "too angry at me" to tell me.
Boy, he really had me telling myself, "You are not crazy. You are NOT crazy!" Just so my head would not EXPLODE in contradiction and confusion and infuriation!!!
I was so worked up I was shaking with a splitting headache when he hung up.
It took 20 minutes to talk myself down. (deep breaths. deep breaths.)
I am seeing more and more what a black and white world he lives in, to the point of...disorder.
His posititivity has been fantasy-land, deny all problems, extra happy-world. Similarly, his dark space is unreal, too. It is ALL dark, awful, doomsday-world.
The two sides of him are, it seems at this point, irreconcilable. The dark side is very frightening for him. For me to talk about it is to hate him, want to divorce him, etc. To bring anything up related to it makes him fly back to his crazy, dark, angry, shut down, pushing away side.
I realize how I wanted to live in the happy-land with him. I was happy to be there and pretend there were no problems. It felt safe with two of us playing happy pretend land together.
I really jacked up the whole routine when I started living in reality-land.
There is some comfort in how extreme he is now. Only because happy land AH is so alluring. At least this side has me say, "Houston, we have a problem!" and stay present to that.
I am feeling like this marriage is impossible. How in the world could this relationship work??!?
I go back home next week. We'll see where I and he is at then.
Whew.
w
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
telling myself, "You are not crazy. You are NOT crazy!" Just so my head would not EXPLODE in contradiction and confusion and infuriation!!!
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Originally Posted by Insulated 
Does your AH have another romantic interest? He's happy happy yet has no recollection of your conversations? Is the marriage salvagable? If so on what terms and conditions that are acceptable to you?
The "forgetting" shows the depth of his inability to face reality.
I feel the marriage isn't salvagable today...
On what terms? Reality. Nothing less. Even that seems impossible at this juncture.
That's crazy.
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 357
I definitely can relate to the part about the 2 sides of the 1 person – the dark side and the everything is fine side – guessing this is common with alcoholics then, and depressives? The only thing that keeps me in the relationship is that the ‘good’ side is so alluring too. I am relatively new to dealing with an alcoholic in my life, and until I came to SR I didn’t realise the Jekyll and Hyde deal was so common. I don’t know if that makes it seem better or worse.
Am also experiencing that denial issue – you know you ahd a certain conversation with them about drinking and the future etc but they have no recollection (or do they?) – I have felt completely crazy on many occasions! Desperate solutions appear to be accepted by him as he is sobering up but are dismissed again or forgotten the following day. Convenient. Makes me question whether he really does want to change things.
On Friday, my relationship was in no way salvageable – by the end of the following day I thought it could be. It’s amazing how your mind can change so quickly. I wonder if one day it gets to the point of no return?
Am also experiencing that denial issue – you know you ahd a certain conversation with them about drinking and the future etc but they have no recollection (or do they?) – I have felt completely crazy on many occasions! Desperate solutions appear to be accepted by him as he is sobering up but are dismissed again or forgotten the following day. Convenient. Makes me question whether he really does want to change things.
On Friday, my relationship was in no way salvageable – by the end of the following day I thought it could be. It’s amazing how your mind can change so quickly. I wonder if one day it gets to the point of no return?
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 35
Yeah, that Big Brick Wall when you try to tell the truth. I remember it well, and not just from my current relationship with my ABF. When I would hit it with someone in the early dating stage, I was out of there. Married, or even just committed relationship, not so easy.
It helped me to realize that in my relationship, the lying wasn't deliberate. One time I asked my ABF in the context of yet another conversation about his drinking, "So what do you do when you get home from work?"
"Turn on the TV and fall asleep."
"What time do you open your first beer?"
Without missing a beat, he said, "As soon as I close the front door behind me."
I had a long discussion with him about whether he had decided to leave out the information about his first beer of the day until I pressed him on it. I asked him, "Wasn't there at least a little whisper of a decision that you weren't going to tell me about the beer because I wasn't going to like it?" He said nope, he simply forgot that opening a beer was part of his getting home from work routine. The conversation was open and civil, so I believe he was telling the truth.
Your AH might be different--he might be deliberately lying to you. Many alcoholics do it all the time. But my experience proves that it's not always like that. It gave me a healthy amount of respect and fear for the power of addiction and denial and just how much of the process is unconscious. Sure, some part of their brain is aware of it, but it's not the part that thinks, makes decisions, and communicates with their spouse.
I'm not justifying what your AH did. In a way, the unconsciousness is worse, because we really do have no control over it--nor do they. But at least if you understand the process, it might be a bit less crazy-making.
It helped me to realize that in my relationship, the lying wasn't deliberate. One time I asked my ABF in the context of yet another conversation about his drinking, "So what do you do when you get home from work?"
"Turn on the TV and fall asleep."
"What time do you open your first beer?"
Without missing a beat, he said, "As soon as I close the front door behind me."
I had a long discussion with him about whether he had decided to leave out the information about his first beer of the day until I pressed him on it. I asked him, "Wasn't there at least a little whisper of a decision that you weren't going to tell me about the beer because I wasn't going to like it?" He said nope, he simply forgot that opening a beer was part of his getting home from work routine. The conversation was open and civil, so I believe he was telling the truth.
Your AH might be different--he might be deliberately lying to you. Many alcoholics do it all the time. But my experience proves that it's not always like that. It gave me a healthy amount of respect and fear for the power of addiction and denial and just how much of the process is unconscious. Sure, some part of their brain is aware of it, but it's not the part that thinks, makes decisions, and communicates with their spouse.
I'm not justifying what your AH did. In a way, the unconsciousness is worse, because we really do have no control over it--nor do they. But at least if you understand the process, it might be a bit less crazy-making.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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My mentally ill husband did the same thing to me. Any conversation that we had in which I brought up something of concern only elicited denial and the attempt to make me think I hadn't seen or heard something that I most certainly had.
In my case, I was only freed from this spectacular kind of crazy making when I asked him to move out and ended the relationship. When I realized that my only choices were to spend the rest of my life having those kind of circular conversations or to pretend that nothing ever bothered me, I decided that was not the life I wanted to live. As he was not going to change his ways, I needed to change mine.
In my case, I was only freed from this spectacular kind of crazy making when I asked him to move out and ended the relationship. When I realized that my only choices were to spend the rest of my life having those kind of circular conversations or to pretend that nothing ever bothered me, I decided that was not the life I wanted to live. As he was not going to change his ways, I needed to change mine.
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wow-
I have been in those same exact shoes years ago... he wanted kids I told him no not until he can grow up and act his age and get help with his drinking. He made me feel so bad for so many years as if I was holding him back from having the one thing in his life that would make his life worht living or coming home to.. yes he said that to me in those terms.. I fought with myself so many times but the other Stronger, smarter person inside of me held my ground. A baby will not change anybody... they have to want to change on their own and no matter how much you try to make them do they will only be doing it to appease you... Its the harsh truth but wehn they want the help all on their own ... you will see the difference in how they approach recovery. Hang in there and you put your needs first and take care of yourself
I have been in those same exact shoes years ago... he wanted kids I told him no not until he can grow up and act his age and get help with his drinking. He made me feel so bad for so many years as if I was holding him back from having the one thing in his life that would make his life worht living or coming home to.. yes he said that to me in those terms.. I fought with myself so many times but the other Stronger, smarter person inside of me held my ground. A baby will not change anybody... they have to want to change on their own and no matter how much you try to make them do they will only be doing it to appease you... Its the harsh truth but wehn they want the help all on their own ... you will see the difference in how they approach recovery. Hang in there and you put your needs first and take care of yourself
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Yeah, I still doubt myself, but I *think* we can trust ourselves *all* the time. If we feel that "going crazy" feeling, that is a HUGE red flag that this person is not right.
Self trust! It seems so elementary. It seems so easy. (demonic laughter in background)
This may sound silly, but what WONDERFUL PRACTICE in trusting myself in the face of opposition!! Scary, hard, brave stuff.
It is comforting to know you all experience this, too. Do any of you have black and white partners like this? Ones that are either happy/in denial or depressed/dark/in awful-land with no balance in between?
Self trust! It seems so elementary. It seems so easy. (demonic laughter in background)
This may sound silly, but what WONDERFUL PRACTICE in trusting myself in the face of opposition!! Scary, hard, brave stuff.
It is comforting to know you all experience this, too. Do any of you have black and white partners like this? Ones that are either happy/in denial or depressed/dark/in awful-land with no balance in between?
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When drinking my rabf will be Mr fun party Guy one minute, Mr "I can take on the world", the next, and then later can turn into Mr Maudlin, sobbing as he goes over the misery he has faced. And yes, I have commented on promises, comments or decisions he had made to me, been looked at as if I needed a straightjacket, and told I must have dreamt those things up because he wouldn't have said them.
I actually taped one episode, and when he finished denying it ever happened, I played it back to him, and told him I was no longer going to listen to anymore rubbish, as it was all lies.
Thank God, when sober he doesn't waffle or tell me I got something wrong.
God bless
I actually taped one episode, and when he finished denying it ever happened, I played it back to him, and told him I was no longer going to listen to anymore rubbish, as it was all lies.
Thank God, when sober he doesn't waffle or tell me I got something wrong.
God bless
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
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The "I'm Not Crazy" thing is a LIFE KILLER. A waste of your beauty, your worth, your ability, your wonderfulness. GAAAH! To think of all the time I WASTED thinking and asking, "Am I crazy?"; living in such chaos and confusion; makes me want to cry.
You cannot get that time back. There is so much MORE to life; there is so much HAPPINESS out there to experience, if only you will leap. To consciously choose to stay mired in that sickness is just as insane as the alcoholism. That's how the disease ensnares us.
You cannot get that time back. There is so much MORE to life; there is so much HAPPINESS out there to experience, if only you will leap. To consciously choose to stay mired in that sickness is just as insane as the alcoholism. That's how the disease ensnares us.
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Originally Posted by wifeofadrinker
The "forgetting" shows the depth of his inability to face reality.
I feel the marriage isn't salvagable today...
I feel the marriage isn't salvagable today...
The therapist I am seeing explained that some people get stuck (emotionally) at certain young ages. His theory is that where my S/O got "stuck" is:
at the age of 9, 10, 11 or so, we grow to understand that even if we do something bad, we ourselves are not bad. we can do this because we have a loving parent affirming who we are, but punishing us for our wrong deeds. a younger child cannot make this distinction. do something bad = "i am bad".
it is one of the ways that people can stay stuck in shame. i think this is a core reason why some of the addicts in my life have such a difficult time admitting failings.
i hope you have a great summer.
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Coffee - that is EXACTLY where he is. I have compassion for how sad that is for him.
Jadmack - At the same time, I wanted to NAIL HIM TO THE GROUND and FORCE him to watch (an imaginary because I don't have one) video of himself doing exactly what he was denying!!
Now, I recognize my intense desire to have HIM validate MY reality is an overdependence on his state and I need to step away from the alkie, but, wow! If I want to tap into rage...there it is.
This is NOT okay for me.
Jadmack - At the same time, I wanted to NAIL HIM TO THE GROUND and FORCE him to watch (an imaginary because I don't have one) video of himself doing exactly what he was denying!!
Now, I recognize my intense desire to have HIM validate MY reality is an overdependence on his state and I need to step away from the alkie, but, wow! If I want to tap into rage...there it is.
This is NOT okay for me.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
I recognize my intense desire to have HIM validate MY reality is an overdependence
So I got to know myself, and learned how to think for myself, I learned to create my own normal, I learned somehow to stop believing that EVERYONE ELSE knows something I don't know. Now I compare what and how others think, feel, believe, and react to MY thoughts, feelings, beliefs and behaviors; and if they don't jive, I can appreciate the differences but not panic that I am "wrong" or change myself to meet someone else's standard. I think that is key in boundary-setting.
Weird that I did that for so long....
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