FormerDoormat

I'm responding to everyone posting in this thread (except those who are being rude or hostile), not just those folks who happen to agree with me.

That's a very good question, Blessed.

Ago

that is an assumption

or to "assume"

we know about the word "assume"

It may be used as such, but I'm going to go ahead and say in this context you are absolutely and unequivocally wrong. You couldn't be "more wrong" actually.

It was used in this instance as an expression of absolute endearment

"The Girls" here saved my life and mental health, you think I am going to put them "down" you couldn't be more wrong. I love "The Girls" here.

If you have a problem with my use of the word "girls" it's your problem.

I assure you that wasn't "berated", that was me being as polite as possible in what I consider very juvenile and "trying" circumstances, there will be absolutely no confusion if I "berate" you

Tally

I meant no rudeness or hostility FD, I have tremendous respect for most of your posts I just found this topic to be completely insane, something that was said completely innocently to somebody else was then made into a huge deal of disrespect and womens rights etc. which quite frankly could have been handled via PM instead of derailing someone elses thread.
I wasn't "thanking" Ago for "berating" you, more hitting the thanks button because I happened to agree with what he said.

WantsOut

There is absolute truth to the idea that language can be used to control. Consider the used of the horrid "n" word - one of the most powerful and vicious words in the English language. It's interesting to note that some black youth have attempted to "reclaim" the word and use it in a way that takes its destructive power away. Women have also attempted to reclaim the word "bitch".

FDM is right that "girls" can be derogatory. Calling a black woman "girl" was a way to demean her. Same with calling a black man "boy". These are words that are meant to make them lesser.

It's less clear cut with "girls" and "women" and "boys" and "men" when we're talking about groups of racially unspecified people. Here in NY people have resorted to referring to a mixed gender group as "you guys" or the cumbersome "ladies and gentlemen". We lack a useful pronoun like "ya'll". But same sex groups can be referred to as "the boys" or "the girls" if one wants to indicate a certain camraderie - a feeling of belonging or rowdiness, which I think was the intent here. I think that use is not insulting to gender because it serves a bonding purpose.

I love language discussions btw.

FormerDoormat

I agree WantsOut. And since people cannot denote race (or country of origin and sometimes even gender) from what's posted here, I think it's even more important to be aware that certain phrases can be offensive.

I think this discussion is not off topic by the way (it was Mike who chose the subject line), as it relates to issues of self esteem.

Ago

It's it own thread now, so no, it's not "off topic" any more, just to be perfectly clear, but it had nothing to do with the Original Poster's plea for help


Don't "lump" me in with "your" alcoholic and "abuser" please, I find that extremely offensive and demeaning, no one here is being rude, hostile, or "berating" you, we are just not agreeing with you, there is a very large difference.

Thank You

blessed4x

Can it be that the term "girls" is somewhat geographically acceptable? Around here it is used openly, the local merchants association even has a weekly "Girls Night Out" in the summer, which is posted in all of the merchants windows on the square. My previous employer, which was a large metropolitan hospital also had a "Girl's Luncheon" fundraiser.

I see how it could be offensive after reading WantsOut's post, and wouldn't use it if I thought I would offend anyone, but I never would have thought it could be offensive prior to this thread. Interesting stuff!

FormerDoormat

Interesting question, Blessed. When an employer refers to their adult female employees as "girls" do they think lesser of female employees than male employees? Would the same employer refer to their male employees as "boys?" How often do you see the use of the word, "boys" in the workplace?

blessed4x

I don't THINK they thought less of female employees, as I would guess 80% including the COO were female, but I don't know.

The more I think of it, maybe they were being completely inappropriate since I believe it was a fundraiser for breastcancer! My sister, who is a survivor, so I think has earned the right to joke about it, affectionately refers to her now unmatched pair as "the girl".

I should probably remove myself from this conversation completely! It's been a long day at the Hospice House and I think I'm getting a little punchy!

Ago

Daily

"Boys night out"

"Going out with the boys after work"

"Going fishing with the boys"

It depends on context, some words are offensive, some words can be used offensively or as a "put down"

The Spiritual Axiom is if I am upset, there is something wrong with me

If I go "looking for things that offend me that in all actuality have nothing to do with me" all I need to do to find "the problem" is head to the nearest mirror.

Tarheel

I do not see how recovery is possible if we don't give each other the benefit of the doubt. How can love and acceptance exist without benefit of the doubt?

Context and intent are CRITICAL when considering the meaning of what someone says.

I am 100% confident that AGO was speaking with the greatest reverence when referring to the wisdom of the "girls." His respect and regard for women is unique. To state or imply otherwise is simply incorrect.

(Note to self et al.) Sense of humor is pretty important, too.

FormerDoormat

Here in the U.S., where women typically earn less than similarly educated and qualified men performing the same duties, I'd say use of the term "girls" in the workplace does, indeed, denote that employers think lesser of women than men. So, in the workplace, is the use of the word "girl" an attempt to keep women in their place?

It'd be interesting to ascertain if the male employees at your hospital earn the same pay for the same job in its predominately female atmosphere. I'm sure your HR department keeps statistics on these things.

Still Waters

No, not if I don't take it that way. And really, doesn't this fall under "what others think about me is none of my business"?

And no again, in the South where I'm from I get called girl, honey, sweetie, etc. All terms of endearment that I don't take a seconds offense to. I might add, I got called that from men who made much less than I did.

*shrug*

historyteach

One word: Tootsie.

Shalom!

FormerDoormat

If my significant other (or mother or father) referred to me as honey or sweetie I wouldn't find that offensive, but if anyone other than that called me honey or sweetie, I'd find that demeaning.

Could it be, that as a woman, you've become so accustomed to being referred to in a manner that denotes you're "less than men" that it's difficult to see the subtle form of control or manipulation that's being implied?

I live in the southern U.S., too.

Tarheel

FD,

You are selling women short.

TH

Still Waters

Good grief. Since when is "sweetie" a demeaning term? Or "honey"? Or any of them?

I guess, according to you FD, I'm just allowing myself to be demeaned and considered less than men left and right.

But, I don't really think that's the case at all.

blessed4x

Oh, so now you're calling us SHORT?!

blossomed2008

I find this post very aggressive and offensive. It is posts like these that are making me hesitate to join this community. I went back and read the context it was used in and I have to agree - words are very, very important.

As a victim of domestic violence, responses like this do trigger a response in me and I don't think it's a bad thing to state that. In my primary line of work I interract with a lot of different people from all backgrounds. What I try to do every day is treat each and every one of them with respect. If someone comes to me and says they found something I said inappropirate I would think about it and probably try to avoid it in the future. I escaped an abusive marriage over 5 years ago. A large part of that abuse was verbal, as well as physical. I really don't think it's unreasonable for someone to step up and ask to be referrred to with respect.

In this case, I can certainly understand why some women would say they don't mind being called girls, but I can say as someone who fought long and hard to get where I am today, I see it differently. I'd like to be respected for that, though I understand I have no control over it. Also, maybe it would have been helpful to point out which girls were being referred to. Many women I know do not like to be called girls and lumping all the women on this site into that category was perhaps unfair or not well thought out.

I also always question someone who berates someone else pubicly, especially with a nasty tone - again based on my own experiences. I remember this was a particularly favorite tactic of my abusive alcoholic husband, meant to intimidate me and curry favor with others. I didn't understand it from him, and I don't understand it here.

It seems to me that maybe some people here actually know each other in the non cyber world and that's why they would say they know what a poster means. Actually, after typing this out it occurs to me that I'm pretty confused by this forum anyway.

Thank you for listening.

Ago

Isn't this very demeaning to Still Waters?

To say she doesn't know enough to set her own boundaries?

oof

By the way, this isn't "the workplace" this is an internet forum, the question was whether MY use of the word girls was offensive, not use of the word "girls" in the workplace.

I still state that "context" needs to be looked at and considered, "Tootsie" was being treated in a demeaning manner in that scene that's mentioned.

Who, by the way, was a man, just to be perfectly clear.