mle-sober

I hope this is a good place to post my question. I thought you guys might be the best people to give me the straight answer.

I'm nine and three-quarter months sober. I am very active in my recovery - attend aftercare once a week, attend 1-2 AA meetings a week, meet with my sponsor regularly, am working the steps and am in individual therapy. I really want to do this right and I never want to relapse. I am horribly sorry for the pain I put my husband through.

My husband has stated he forgives me but that he still has very painful memories and feelings. We go to marriage therapy every other week. He has gone to 1 or 2 Al-Anon meetings and says it is "not for me." Other than the bi-weekly marriage therapy, he is doing nothing to help himself resolve the lingering pain and the issues of trust between us.

I have given him passwords to my phone and email and here. I am trying to transparent. (I lied about my drinking.)

Today, we went to a restaurant for lunch together and it was one he knew I used to drink at. In a way, I'd asked him to meet me there because it was time to destroy the mistique of the restaurant and go back as a sober person. They all know me and were very friendly.

I was excited to be able to go to the restaurant and not drink and have a nice lunch. But I could tell my husband was not as thrilled. I asked him about it and he said he was unpleasantly reminded of that whole time in our lives and all the pain and also all the wasted money (my excessive spending on booze).

I said I was sorry that going there and talking about it was hurtful to him. That I couldn't help being excited and happy when I see my own recovery working. But that I would try to be more sensitive to his feelings in the future.

That's why I'm here posting. Is it appropriate that I protect him from my enthusiasm in recovery? (Sometimes, he really doesn't seem to want to hear tidbits about my group or my meetings either.) Why do you think he hasn't gone to Al-Anon? Do you think that's related to the pain he still feels when I talk about my recovery? What can I do to help?

Thanks so much. Any ideas are welcome. Don't worry about hurting my feelings or anything. I really want to know what you think.

- mle

Toomutch

It sounds to me like he is still hurting. Maybe with time he will go to al-Anon and maybe he never will.
Imo you should continue showing your enthusiasm for your recovery, it may be helping him more than you know. He is probably just having a hard time showing it.

denny57

Thanks for sharing.

Congratulations on your sobriety and the hard work you're doing to maintain it. I would respectfully suggest your husband's recovery is his to work. I don't think anyone, alcoholic or not, should have to keep apologizing for the past, once true amends are made to the best of their ability. If you know you are truly sorry, nothing you can say or do more will make him accept it unless he wants to.

It is his choice to accept or reject your best amends. I hope it works out for you both.

((( )))

MissFixit

From my own experience, when L went to rehab I didn't go to al anon because I thought it was his problem to work out. I believed that there was nothing wrong with me or my way of thinking. He was the alcoholic, therefore, it was his work to do. I was supportive of him, but did not think I needed to work on myself.

Later, when he relapsed, struggled, saw a therapist and attmepted AA, I still did not go to al anon as I thought my being supportive of his efforts was my role in his treatment. Again, I never considered that I needed to work on myself.

The ONLY reason I go to al anon now is because of the giant ball of chaos that I cannot avoid. I guess his cheating, lying and leaving is MY rock bottom (funny that is the first time I have thought in those terms). He is now gone and I feel HORRIBLE about myself, have no self esteem and now doubt my own judgement. If the cheating never happened and we were still together and he was continuing to tell me about his recovery efforts, I would not be going at this point. I would not think that I needed to go.

I do not know what your husband is thinking, but maybe he thinks he doesn't need it for himself right now. You are working on yourself and your marriage, so maybe he thinks that your relationship trust issues will mellow with time. I agree that he has to be the one to seek it out for himself. Keep working on yourself (you sound great). Maybe he will seek it out and maybe he won't, but you keep doing what you need to be doing.

I hope that helps.

prodigal

Just as we codies try to get the A into recovery, I now realize it works the opposite way as well. I used to attend an open AA meeting when I lived in Maryland and became good friends with a recovering A. She told me her husband refused to attend Al-Anon and was still attempting to control her, his kids, and just about everyone with whom he came in contact.

Although I could hear her disappointment with his choice, she was determined to work her program. I know how challenging it was for her at times to watch her husband remain stuck in the behaviors he exhibited towards her when she was drinking.

As Denny said, you have made amends. As your recovery continues, your husband may very well turn around and decide to get back into Al-Anon. I certainly hope he begins to let go of the old hurt feelings. Forgiveness is more for the person doing the forgiving. Harboring old resentments can take root as bitterness.

Congratulations on your sobriety.

Still Waters

Some people have a hard time with change, even if it's positive change. In my experience, men have a harder time with change than women.

When my alcoholic husband was in rehab, they way they dealt with the families made me a bit angry. We were loser magnets, we allowed them to use us, etc. Not every situation is the same, and I felt that they could have handled that much better - not that they asked my opinion.

Also, the counselors refused to listen to my concerns while he was in rehab. I was getting nasty letters from him and they said "well, he's made progress since then, he's doing great!". He wasn't doing great, he was lying to them and to himself. It was all about him (as it should be, he was the one in rehab), but it was none about me.

So, I don't trust the so called experts much, but I did eventually find a counselor for me that I liked and she was very helpful in helping me to make progress. So maybe if you want to encourage him to do something, encourage him to get someone to talk to who he is comfortable with. Maybe if he picks a counselor and it's one on one rather than a group like Al-anon it'll be more helpful for him.

I find myself rambling tonight, sorry I rambled up your thread

GiveLove

mle,

After my X finally decided to clean up his act (his words) he made a great point of showing me what a great guy he was. He was transparent about how much he rebuffed the women who wrote to him or came to see him play. He took me to places where he'd taken other women, to prove he was proud to be with me and not drinking. He told me daily how much progress he was making.

I was not mean to him, and I tried to murmur my support even though being in those situations really made me sick. He wanted me to be all happy that he was there with me -- all I could see was the reflection of him in other peoples' eyes, and I knew they knew a truth they'd never share with me.

My X went out of his way to prove to me, over and over, how much progress he was making at........doing the things a person with integrity should've been doing all along.

And inside I was saying: Whaddya want, a freakin' MEDAL ? For doing the right thing finally? I was angry and hurt and I wasn't on a timeline where after X number of months I ought to be fixed.

Having enthusiasm for your own recovery is a magnificent thing, and I would not slow down on that for love nor money.

Voicing your enthusiasm to him is kind of another matter.

And voicing your enthusiasm expecting a certain kind of response from him is another animal altogether.

As for me: I never forgave my X for his infidelities, not to mention the fact that his recovery didn't last, and it was obvious he was doing it for ME, not for HIM. I left him.

At least your husband is willing to stick this out for now rather than walking away and starting somewhere else where he isn't plagued by awful memories. I couldn't get past it, but I'm not sorry.

I may sound awful, but honestly I do feel the pain you're going through. You sound like you're really trying hard and you just want a little credit for it.

I just don't think you can control this though......and it may be safest for you just to concentrate on YOU rather than these kinds of heroics. Your recovery is more important than how he does or doesn't react to it.

Hugs, and congratulations on all your hard, hard work. I don't know if I have the strength to do what you've done.

GL

Barbara52

Going to AlAnon isn't necessary for one of us codies to recover. I have never gone to a meeting. Never felt the need. But I did work very hard on my recovery, thru some individual therapy sessions, thru lots of reading and a heck of a lot of honest self examination. But, just as an A can't recover without the deep desire to do so, neither can a codie (or anyone else with issues for that matter).

If and when he is ready to start dealing with his issues and feeling, he will do so. I think all you can do is continue to work your own recovery and work at re-establishing trust. It may or may not happen. But you can only work on your stuff.

I think I would share my enthusiasms with him unless it become clear he truly doesn't want to hear about it or can't share in it. It may be that he is just not ready. He may never be.

mle-sober

Thank you to everyone who responded. I really want to make sure I've heard your responses. It's very helpful for me to read your responses and I have a lot of thinking to do. I also want to clarify just a few things...

So, what I think I hear all of you saying is work on your own recovery and let him work on his at his own pace. Don't try to direct his recovery. If I have don't my best at making amends, I don't need to keep making them.
Also, if he is harboring old resentments, it may lead to bitterness. I could suggest individual counseling or Al-anon but let it go if he doesn't show interest. (I did and he didn't and he's made it clear, like one of you said, that he doesn't see it as his problem in any way.)

Instead of going to a restaurant that I drank at, we should find other places to go and other things to do so I don't trigger his pain. (Did I understand that right, anvilhead?)

Let my enthusiasm and happiness have space in my interior life but maybe don't share it with him and expect a response? (GiveLove and Barbara? Is that what you mean?)

I have a hard time with that last one. I get some really conflicting advice from my therapist in marriage counseling. I have had a tendency to hide emotionally in my relationship for fear of exposing parts of myself that I thought my husband would find fault with. He is very controlling. So, I am trying actively to open up and be more real with him, be truthful with him about my feelings. I don't really expect a response other than I expect him not to reject me.

I do struggle a lot because if my husband, who I love terribly, can't find his way to a more peaceful and loving place (as opposed to the angry, resentful, bitter and volatile place he is in now) I really can't stay with him. I don't want to divorce him. But if he doesn't grow and learn how to be in the world with more harmony, I don't want to walk beside him and I don't want my children to see us having so much strive.


I guess I feel I want to point out that being an alcoholic doesn't make you a person without integrity. I lied to protect my addiction. In my understanding, that was part of my disease. I did not and never have lied about anything else to my husband. There is no infidelity in our past. I think active alcoholics lie because they are active alcoholics and they are protecting their use. Not because they lack integrity.

When I got sober and really committed myself to my recovery path, I didn't want a "freakin' MEDAL." I still don't. (Although the chips they hand me in AA for my milestones DO help! )

And I'm clear on the fact that I am sober for me. Not my husband. At first, I had to use the borrowed strength of getting sober for the people I loved. It was so hard and I was so buried in self-hatred, I couldn't see that I was worthy of getter sober for myself. I didn't care about myself enough to do that. But after about 3 months, I found that I was sober because I wanted to be sober. Not just because I wanted to stop hurting people I loved.

You say at least my husband is willing to stick around rather than walking away.... as if he's giving me a gift and I'm supposed to be eternally grateful and maybe give him a freakin' MEDAL. You know what? It goes both ways. He's no angel. We are both here because we choose to be here. Because we made a vow of for sickness or health. Because we have childern together and we don't want to turn their lives upside down unless things become untenable for one or both of us.

I don't need or want credit for my sobriety. I get that in the rooms of AA. What I need is to understand why my husband might very well end up throwing this all away, because he appears to be holding a grudge. It's almost as if he wants us to pretend none of this ever happened. Except when he gets something rude to say in his mind and then he's happy to harp on it. All the while, he sits on his butt as if he has no responsibility to help our relationship grow and change and get better.

I can be the minute hand on the clock and run perfectly on time and do everything right all the time. But if he is the hour hand on the clock, nothing makes sense or works any better if he's not working right too.

denny57

I agree with this. I think where it got confusing for me is that my ex was an alcoholic and I realized, lacked integrity. I tied the two together. Therapy has helped me understand that some alcoholics, even though they choose sobriety, still have underlying issues. So a person lacking integrity in the first place would still be that way drinking or not.

I also think that if someone is controlling they don't get a free pass just because they are not an addict. An excellent book on control is "Why Does He Do That?" Another older book I like is "Why Men are the Way They Are." I actually learned of that book from xAH and I'm glad he suggested it.

(((mle-sober)))

Ago

I have to absolutely agree with Denny here

I have been on both sides of the "eight ball" on this issue now

It was hard to read Givelove's post, because I absolutely did that, not at first, but her "controlling" behavior and "disapproval of me" didn't stop after I got sober and even changed my behaviors, so I tried to "show her" "Hey, I'm a nice guy, I've changed" and "her" response was exactly, "what do you want, a medal?"

Her "disapproval" and resentment never wavered, although she denied it.

I had posted in another thread she ultimately left me, and I said "rightfully so, she deserved something better" I became something better, but it was too late. I truly understand and validate both of our viewpoints, I had destroyed our relationship because of MY lack of integrity, to me, if I lie, I am a liar, it doesn't matter what I am lying about, and when I lied she got to where she couldn't believe anything I said about myself, which to me spells that I absolutely don't have integrity.

What I didn't post was I also deserved something better. I absolutely don't need or deserve to be treated like that in my life today.

Well here is where it got tricky, 15 years later I picked "me" from 15 years before to have a relationship with. It was uncanny, her mouth would open and all the same old tired lies, manipulations, evasions and behaviors were there from me 15 years ago, I mean verbatim. It was awful.

If the truth was this womans butt she wouldn't be able to find it with both hands.

She lied to me all the time, she lied about herself, her actions, what she was doing, where she was, and most importantly she lied to me about who she was because she didn't know who she was, and she said the same thing to me, as long as I am not lying to you about sleeping with somebody else, it's none of your business, these are little "white lies" that have nothing to do with you.

I have to say, I emphasize with that woman from 17 years ago now, I understand much more clearly what she was dealing with, yeah she was sick, yeah she was a control freak, but my god, who wouldn't get sick living with the person I was 17 years ago. (although I feel it was a pre-existing condition, I hope I make my point clear)

MLE, when I was "you" I spent the next six or eight years trying to make this other person happy. Trying to be the person "they wanted me to be"

All I have to say today is "F" that crap.

Here I am, take it or leave it, I am a nice guy, you don't like it, or you don't "like me" no problem, I'm outty, life is too short to be jumping through someone else's hoops

tough thread though, I relate to givelove, I was "her" boyfriend (not really ok?) then I was Givelove later on, I was MLE and I was with "her husband" (a female version) as well, all were hard on me.

Today I'm not, and that's a good thing.

MissFixit

mle,

You sound very strong and determined. You also sound as though you are moving forward. That is wonderful.

When my A was sober (I am not trying to compare your work with his because he didn't stay that way. You sound much stronger than he was/is.), he wanted me to be accepting and welcoming of his newly developed repsonsibility. He used to get frustrated when I continued to try and take charge of our schedule, plans, etc.. I tried to not do this, and sometimes just stayed quiet instead of offerring my ideas. This felt VERY artificial to me in hindsight. When you have years of someone not following through (again I am not comparing you at all to him), it is very hard to build that trust back. You get stuck in a caretaker role that is filled with anxiety at least it was for me. I felt "gun shy." I guess everyone has a different time frame for changing this assuming they want to.

He used to get frustrated with me when I was "caretaking" and I have residual guilt about that. It must have felt very insulting and for that I am sorry. I think it breaks down to the same instinct most of us have when driving a car and breaking fast. Most immediately throw their arm out over the passenger to stop them from lunging forward. It takes a lot of strength and awareness to not do that.

I cannot speak for him, but you sound really good. I hope that you two can be patient with one another, but take the steps you need for you.

I am praying for you.

GiveLove

I loved "Why Men Are the Way They Are" (it's written from the male perspective, and is really quite cool)

And mle, I was only sharing my thoughts at the time of my own experiences, since you asked for perfect candor, i.e. "don't worry about hurting my feelings or anything...."

They aren't nice, and they aren't flattering to me. But they're true.

imho, you need to do whatever you need to do FOR YOUR OWN SOBRIETY. If a necessary part of that is sharing your enthusiasm out loud with others, then you need to do that. I just would be cautious of expecting him to react in a prescribed way, and I'd be cautious of sharing your victories with him specifically to affect his opinion of you (that was what I was trying to get at in my post).

And you're right: If you are busting your butt to do everything possible to make amends and work your program, but he never reaches the point of being willing to meet you halfway, then you're right - you may have some difficult decisions to make for yourselves.

Good luck with everything!
GL

coyote21

Quote:
Originally Posted by mle-sober
I think active alcoholics lie because they are active alcoholics and they are protecting their use. Not because they lack integrity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Denny57
I agree with this. I think where it got confusing for me is that my ex was an alcoholic and I realized, lacked integrity. I tied the two together. Therapy has helped me understand that some alcoholics, even though they choose sobriety, still have underlying issues. So a person lacking integrity in the first place would still be that way drinking or not.


There is always more to ponder! Sometimes I believe Hp sends me little gifts that say, "you made the right decision". Xaw had zero integrity, I always just assumed it was because of the alcohol, that if she ever got sober she'd some how change that lack of character.

Knowledge is power.

Thanks and God bless us all, :praying
Coyote

mle-sober

Thank you each and every one of you for taking the time to give me your thoughts. I really appreciate it. I take no offense at anything anyone said. I know it is all meant in love and, after all, I did ask for it! Truly, nothing hurts here. Like in the rooms, I can take what I can use and leave the rest.

I really appreciate the help seeing what my husband might be experiencing. It's hard to understand, for me. I feel like if I can empathize with him, I can do a better job of interacting with him.

He has been in a caretaker role with me for a long time due to some medical stuff and then also my alcoholism. That has got to be part of this.

And I do think that he's confused my lying with my character. It would be hard to love and appreciate someone you've lost respect for.

And, on a very inconsequential note, I did ask if he wanted to meet me at the restaurant. We both knew it was the first time I was going back there after getting sober.

Basically, I know I need to just keep working my program but it helps when I can read your comments. It helps me keep things in perspective. I just really, REALLY don't want to have our marriage end. I really want it to work. But I know that I am growing and changing (it sounds like a middle school sex ed class, doesn't it?!) and I'm not sure my husband is. I think he's just hunkering down and hoping nothing else moves.

Thank you again for your input and your time. I appreciate it.

Tarheel

MLE,

one more thought...

You are building a new life for yourself. (what an amazing job!!)
At the same time, I think you're figuring out how to build a "new" life with your husband.

Replaying the old stuff & places might replay the old pain from the "old" life.

You are starting from the beginning yourself. What about starting from the beginning with him? Starting slowly. New places. New experiences. New movies. New foods. New activities. Just new. Giving him a chance to catch up and heal and trust and believe. Giving you both a chance to create lovely new memories where the old yucky ones now reside.

I wonder if, after some time, part of that new life together could include "recovery experiences." Maybe with a new foundation under you, your recovery can be associated with 'new and safe' rather than 'old and painful' for him.

It sounds to me like under the pain there is so much love between the two of you.
Slow and steady wins the race!!

TH

eggshell

"Why do you think he hasn't gone to Al-Anon?"

My situation is similiar, my husband quit drinking 56 days ago and is working hard at it!
I was angry, hurt, etc. and went to Al-Anon because my ah., my therapist, my mom -basically everyone-told me to go. I didn't like it either. So I went to a different meeting. Didn't feel comfortable there either. I had to go to about six different meetings before I met a group I felt comfortable with.
The thing is, some groups are real small, some are all women, some are very large -like 40 people-with a lot more men. Maybe he feels uncomfortable because there are not a lot of men?
It took me a few times going to that group I liked, before I finally realized that I contributed to the current problems; I resented his happiness; and maybe I was a little sick of it all. NOW, I want to go because I found a group of people I can relate to. I go to learn how other Al-Anons dealt with the same type of situation. I am working on the 12steps, too, but a lot slower than my husband. I feel better about myself, maybe, like I deserve a medal too! I go to AA with my husband, at least once a week. I like the big book meetings. Anyway, I wish you both well, I really want my marraige to work, too.:ghug3

drained22

I feel the same way with going to places to new places. we gone to alot of restaurant and bars in her town. the first restaurant we went to, we went there twice and we never had a problem.

but there are a few places that bring back bad memories and she would have to rip my hands from the door to make me go in. going back even if she gets sober and not dry drunk would give me anxiety because all I would be hoping that nothing would happen.

GiveLove

mle,

After my alcoholic sister died, I talked to some of the people in the last rehab where she'd spent time.

I had written her letters, not knowing what else I could do without enabling her and without ignoring her. She had relapsed numerous times and had destroyed pretty much her entire life.

The rehab people remembered me because my sister went on and on about a particular letter I wrote....actually just one sentence of a letter I wrote. They could almost repeat it by heart, she'd talked about it so much - that sentence was:

"I'm so proud of you for trying as hard as you are, and I hope you beat this thing because I'd like you in my life for a long time."

No threats, no pleading, just that. I'd written it as an afterthought, not really even thinking about it. But it turned out to be important.......I guess everybody else in the family thought that quitting drinking was like falling off a log or something, because they never gave her any credit for her hard work.

So, regardless of whether you already get plenty of this or not, I'm here to tell you this: *I* see how hard you're trying. I know you're feeling around in the dark sometimes, trying to figure out the right things to do and say. I can tell how tough this is, and I'm proud of you for trying.

Keep posting. We'll keep helping you find the lightswitch

Ago

I would to reiterate what Givelove has said as well, quitting drinking is a bear, getting sober, which is literally destroying the person you were and rebuilding a new one is ten bears, one that most don't understand, not having walked a mile in your shoes.

For me, I didn't have to put people in my life that would "give me a medal" but I damned sure put people in my life who liked me and would meet me half way on stuff.

:ghug