Husband doesn't want to hear it.
mle-sober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,243
Wow! Thank you, GiveLove and Ago, for the supportive and encouraging words. Really thank you to each of you. I was so hesitant to come to this forum, feeling a little like I was spying. But every time I come here, I learn and get new things to think about.
Just to follow up on the choice of restaurant, and whether I asked if he minded going to that particular restaurant or not (just so you know I'm actually only a bumbling a$$ some of the time) my husband and I spoke at length about going to that restaurant and what it had meant to me and how it might affect both of us. It was a discussion that went on for several months, actually, and we finally decided to just go and break through that wall. So, I don't feel that there was much more I could've said or done that would've respected his feelings about being there. I would've been okay if he'd gotten up and said, "You know what? I don't really want to be here. You can swing by my office after you eat and we can talk more."
Clearly, he didn't anticipate the strong negative reaction he had. I was genuinely excited to be able to cross that line into normalcy. (Just being a patron at the nice restaurant like everyone else instead of being a secretive and lone drinker at the restaurant.)
The stronger I get in my sobriety, the happier and more certain I feel about it. It's truly a miracle for me. I never, never, never would've imagined that I could emerge from the gross and debilitating alcoholism I was buried in.
I feel sorry that the wounds I inflicted on him while I was drinking continue to dominate his experience of me some of the time. Not all the time. But some of the time. I just wish that he would seek the help of a therapist or alanon so that he could recover also. I can't recover for us both.
And if he refuses to do so, I don't know that I'll be able to stay with him. Being married to, being intimate with, running a household with, and being best friends with someone who is sometimes looking at you as your former self (and who is frequently angry and resentful) is very difficult.
I didn't actively and knowingly ask him to stay with me while I was drinking. I was sliding helter skelter down the trail of alcoholism. I drank for 25 years. It's not like he didn't know I drank heavily and made it a big priority in my life when he met me. He drank with me, for years.
The last few years of drinking, I was out of control and so completely irrational and sick. I lost all ability to control my drinking. It was very sick. And finally, I dropped to my knees and begged for help.
When help was offered, I reached out with everything I had. And it took everything I had. I sought help with a single-minded purpose. And slowly, over the course of hours and days and then months, I began to recover. I will always be recovering. I fear that the second I stop experiencing myself as in recovery, I will relapse. It's not something I'm willing to risk.
I guess I am telling you all of this because I want to paint a true picture of what I'm experiencing. I'm confused. I don't see him as a victim. But he sees himself as a victim. He's been very clear about that. I am truly and deeply sorry for the pain I inflicted. I will always regret it. I have to live with the fact that I risked my childrens' lives again and again while I was drinking. (Along with the lives of countless others when I was driving.)
And perhaps I have irrevocable damaged the way in which my husband looks at me. Perhaps there is no way to heal those wounds. Is this possible? That it will be with us forever? If he never chooses to seek help for himself, can it last forever?
Probably I am just being impatient. I am not a patient person. I know that. I want him to get help and heal and find joy again.
I'm sorry for my rant.
Just to follow up on the choice of restaurant, and whether I asked if he minded going to that particular restaurant or not (just so you know I'm actually only a bumbling a$$ some of the time) my husband and I spoke at length about going to that restaurant and what it had meant to me and how it might affect both of us. It was a discussion that went on for several months, actually, and we finally decided to just go and break through that wall. So, I don't feel that there was much more I could've said or done that would've respected his feelings about being there. I would've been okay if he'd gotten up and said, "You know what? I don't really want to be here. You can swing by my office after you eat and we can talk more."
Clearly, he didn't anticipate the strong negative reaction he had. I was genuinely excited to be able to cross that line into normalcy. (Just being a patron at the nice restaurant like everyone else instead of being a secretive and lone drinker at the restaurant.)
The stronger I get in my sobriety, the happier and more certain I feel about it. It's truly a miracle for me. I never, never, never would've imagined that I could emerge from the gross and debilitating alcoholism I was buried in.
I feel sorry that the wounds I inflicted on him while I was drinking continue to dominate his experience of me some of the time. Not all the time. But some of the time. I just wish that he would seek the help of a therapist or alanon so that he could recover also. I can't recover for us both.
And if he refuses to do so, I don't know that I'll be able to stay with him. Being married to, being intimate with, running a household with, and being best friends with someone who is sometimes looking at you as your former self (and who is frequently angry and resentful) is very difficult.
I didn't actively and knowingly ask him to stay with me while I was drinking. I was sliding helter skelter down the trail of alcoholism. I drank for 25 years. It's not like he didn't know I drank heavily and made it a big priority in my life when he met me. He drank with me, for years.
The last few years of drinking, I was out of control and so completely irrational and sick. I lost all ability to control my drinking. It was very sick. And finally, I dropped to my knees and begged for help.
When help was offered, I reached out with everything I had. And it took everything I had. I sought help with a single-minded purpose. And slowly, over the course of hours and days and then months, I began to recover. I will always be recovering. I fear that the second I stop experiencing myself as in recovery, I will relapse. It's not something I'm willing to risk.
I guess I am telling you all of this because I want to paint a true picture of what I'm experiencing. I'm confused. I don't see him as a victim. But he sees himself as a victim. He's been very clear about that. I am truly and deeply sorry for the pain I inflicted. I will always regret it. I have to live with the fact that I risked my childrens' lives again and again while I was drinking. (Along with the lives of countless others when I was driving.)
And perhaps I have irrevocable damaged the way in which my husband looks at me. Perhaps there is no way to heal those wounds. Is this possible? That it will be with us forever? If he never chooses to seek help for himself, can it last forever?
Probably I am just being impatient. I am not a patient person. I know that. I want him to get help and heal and find joy again.
I'm sorry for my rant.
Awakening
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by mle-sober 
Probably I am just being impatient. I am not a patient person. I know that. I want him to get help and heal and find joy again.
I don't know, but I understand impatience, got a little of that myself!
Anyway, thanks and God bless us all, :praying
Coyote
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
Just a guess, since I'm not your hubby, but he may not appreciate hearing all about your recovery and AA work because then the topic of conversation is still about you--your drinking or non-drinking in this case.
When my boyfriend was in early recovery, it was still all about him. I felt like I was never in the picture. Not when he was drinking and not when was newly sober. Alcohol ruled his life when he was an active alcoholic and AA ruled his life when he was in recovery. I was never a part of the equation.
I don't know how long your relationship with your husband has been or how long you'd been drinking, but Richard was drinking for 22 years and I was tired of playing second fiddle to his problems. Ultimately, I decided that the only way I could rid my life of his focus on drinking and then on recovery was to end my relationship with him.
I did forgive him and I never stopped loving him, but he'd done way too much damage to me and my daughter for me to ever forget what he put us through. Expecting him to find joy (or at least feel comfortable) in visiting a restaurant where you once drank frequently is expecting too much IMHO.
Why not make new memories in places where there are no hard feelings? If you need to go there in a sober state as part of your recovery, then perhaps you should do that without him. Just my .02.
When my boyfriend was in early recovery, it was still all about him. I felt like I was never in the picture. Not when he was drinking and not when was newly sober. Alcohol ruled his life when he was an active alcoholic and AA ruled his life when he was in recovery. I was never a part of the equation.
I don't know how long your relationship with your husband has been or how long you'd been drinking, but Richard was drinking for 22 years and I was tired of playing second fiddle to his problems. Ultimately, I decided that the only way I could rid my life of his focus on drinking and then on recovery was to end my relationship with him.
I did forgive him and I never stopped loving him, but he'd done way too much damage to me and my daughter for me to ever forget what he put us through. Expecting him to find joy (or at least feel comfortable) in visiting a restaurant where you once drank frequently is expecting too much IMHO.
Why not make new memories in places where there are no hard feelings? If you need to go there in a sober state as part of your recovery, then perhaps you should do that without him. Just my .02.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by FormerDoormat
Oh brother...
mle - I think I read in your posts someone who is at a crossroads. I've heard it said by many people I've met in the rooms that relationships do not always survive sobriety, just as they don't survive alcoholism.
I wish the best for you and your husband, whatever that may be. ((( )))
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
I feel sorry that the wounds I inflicted on him while I was drinking continue to dominate his experience of me some of the time. Not all the time. But some of the time. I just wish that he would seek the help of a therapist or alanon so that he could recover also. I can't recover for us both.
And if he refuses to do so, I don't know that I'll be able to stay with him. Being married to, being intimate with, running a household with, and being best friends with someone who is sometimes looking at you as your former self (and who is frequently angry and resentful) is very difficult.
I didn't actively and knowingly ask him to stay with me while I was drinking. I was sliding helter skelter down the trail of alcoholism. I drank for 25 years. It's not like he didn't know I drank heavily and made it a big priority in my life when he met me. He drank with me, for years.
The last few years of drinking, I was out of control and so completely irrational and sick. I lost all ability to control my drinking. It was very sick. And finally, I dropped to my knees and begged for help.
And if he refuses to do so, I don't know that I'll be able to stay with him. Being married to, being intimate with, running a household with, and being best friends with someone who is sometimes looking at you as your former self (and who is frequently angry and resentful) is very difficult.
I didn't actively and knowingly ask him to stay with me while I was drinking. I was sliding helter skelter down the trail of alcoholism. I drank for 25 years. It's not like he didn't know I drank heavily and made it a big priority in my life when he met me. He drank with me, for years.
The last few years of drinking, I was out of control and so completely irrational and sick. I lost all ability to control my drinking. It was very sick. And finally, I dropped to my knees and begged for help.
You didn't ask him to stay with you? He did stay, and yet you're ready to take your marbles and go home because he's not moving in the direction you want him to, at the pace you want him to, just like you weren't.
You want to go to your old hangouts. While I commend you, and your strength in your recovery, this is about you.
You want him to get help because you don't like how he's responding or not responding to you, this is about you also.
I guess I am telling you all of this because I want to paint a true picture of what I'm experiencing. I'm confused. I don't see him as a victim. But he sees himself as a victim. He's been very clear about that. I am truly and deeply sorry for the pain I inflicted.
Probably I am just being impatient. I am not a patient person. I know that. I want him to get help and heal and find joy again.
I'm not trying to bust your chops here mle-sober, honestly. I'm so glad to hear that you are living sober and finding joy, but this really strikes a nerve in me. My AH also says that I need to get help, that it's all me and any issues are me, because he's sober....and he couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not (not not not) saying that this is your case, but well...I don't know, I'm bothered by what you're saying here.
mle-sober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,243
Okay - I hope you guys don't mind if I push this a little more. I really appreciate your honest feedback.
Are you saying that if we discuss on and off for months the way would both feel if we went to a restaurant for lunch where I used to drink and we both decide to go because we like the food and want to break past the barrier of it being one of my past drinking places, that if he suddenly got rude and cranky while we were there it was somehow my fault for thinking only about myself? I can't anticipate his feelings. I don't expect him to anticipate my feelings. HeHe said he wanted to go. It wasn't just about me. I don't understand that. I feel like him suddenly getting moody and resentful during the meal when I was feeling relieved to find myself capable of being in a restaurant with a bar is really just what it is. Him having feelings. Me having feelings. The difference is that my feelings were positive and happy and his were pouty and resentful. It's not like I was saying, "stop acting pouty." We went through the meal that way.
Stillwaters: You say, "You want to go to your old hangouts." Just to be fair, that's kind of a simplification. We both want to be able to go to this restaurant. The food is good. In truth the vast majority of my drinking was home alone.
But ultimately, it's not very fun to be with someone who not only doesn't show appreciation and enthusiasm for you and the important things in your life. Especially if they show strong resistance to figure out why they are feeling the way they feel and work toward a more positive outlook.
I like to think that if he'd asked me to get help, I would've. Or that if he'd said he was leaving unless I got help, I would've sought help. I'll never know. I got help when he gave me a breath test before I was going to drive my children 20 miles on the freeway. I had given him the breath test to use it on me if he ever felt he needed to. He used it and I realized how bad my behavior was. And I went to AA and then enrolled in a treatment program that week.
I think he would've had every right to leave me. Everyone has that right. At any time. We separated in the house (me in the guest room) for 3 full months and then had a long talk where I begged and pleaded and cried and apologized etc. I begged him to give our marriage another try. I believe in the vows of marriage. I believe we can make it. I'll do anything.
So this is the other thing I'm confused about. In a marriage, when the alcoholic gets sober and as part of that goes through a period of renewal and revitalization, and the other partner feels anger or resentment (for the myriad reasons many of you have mentioned: that they resent the selfish focus of their partner, that they have a different timeframe, that they don't see the issue as pertinent to them, etc.) the alcoholic should just back off and let it be? Is that what you're saying?
I can't imagine a marriage where one partner just moves on and the other stays in the same place. That sounds like a good tombstone for the marriage. I think of marriage as a vital living thing that takes work to keep it alive.
Just because he has a right to have any feelings he has doesn't mean that our marriage will survive those feelings being bottled up and kept in a nice safe place.
I know it's up to him to decide to get help. I'm just trying to figure out what my options are if he never decides to get help. I do have to look seriously at leaving him and I really don't want to. If there's any way I could convince him to get help, I would much prefer that.
I'm also not saying that all of our problems our HIS. But I do have a pretty good case of I am getting help and he's not. I mean, just looking at the facts, clearly I am doing everything I can to stay sober and make myself a better person. Essentially, all I expect is that my husband stop dragging his heels and put some effort in too.
I think a marriage allows for us to say that to each other sometimes. To call eachother on things we see and ask for things we want. If we were so afraid of being codependent or selfish that we couldn't talk to each other about our feelings (oops, sorry about trying to understand you and please you, oops, sorry for sharing what's going on with me) I think we'd be in deep doo.
I think it's a balance. I try to respect his feelings and needs. I don't feel like I'm demanding that he heal on my timeframe. I just wish that I could begin to see SOME healing. Sometimes his resentment comes out so filled with fire and rage that it is just disproportionate to the situation.
I lied about my drinking for 9 months. That's the time he's angry about. According to him. I've been sober longer than I lied about it.
I sincerely hope I don't sound defensive. I'm sorry if I do. I feel like I'm learning and I appreciate your responses. I want to understand. I am not re-reading this because it's late so I might sound harsher than I really feel.
I'm sorry that this is triggering some of you in terms of your own loved ones wanting you to heal. All of the responses are very valuable to me but it's those responses that are so helpful because I think that you reflect what my husband is experiencing.
Thank you.
Are you saying that if we discuss on and off for months the way would both feel if we went to a restaurant for lunch where I used to drink and we both decide to go because we like the food and want to break past the barrier of it being one of my past drinking places, that if he suddenly got rude and cranky while we were there it was somehow my fault for thinking only about myself? I can't anticipate his feelings. I don't expect him to anticipate my feelings. HeHe said he wanted to go. It wasn't just about me. I don't understand that. I feel like him suddenly getting moody and resentful during the meal when I was feeling relieved to find myself capable of being in a restaurant with a bar is really just what it is. Him having feelings. Me having feelings. The difference is that my feelings were positive and happy and his were pouty and resentful. It's not like I was saying, "stop acting pouty." We went through the meal that way.
Stillwaters: You say, "You want to go to your old hangouts." Just to be fair, that's kind of a simplification. We both want to be able to go to this restaurant. The food is good. In truth the vast majority of my drinking was home alone.
But ultimately, it's not very fun to be with someone who not only doesn't show appreciation and enthusiasm for you and the important things in your life. Especially if they show strong resistance to figure out why they are feeling the way they feel and work toward a more positive outlook.
I like to think that if he'd asked me to get help, I would've. Or that if he'd said he was leaving unless I got help, I would've sought help. I'll never know. I got help when he gave me a breath test before I was going to drive my children 20 miles on the freeway. I had given him the breath test to use it on me if he ever felt he needed to. He used it and I realized how bad my behavior was. And I went to AA and then enrolled in a treatment program that week.
I think he would've had every right to leave me. Everyone has that right. At any time. We separated in the house (me in the guest room) for 3 full months and then had a long talk where I begged and pleaded and cried and apologized etc. I begged him to give our marriage another try. I believe in the vows of marriage. I believe we can make it. I'll do anything.
So this is the other thing I'm confused about. In a marriage, when the alcoholic gets sober and as part of that goes through a period of renewal and revitalization, and the other partner feels anger or resentment (for the myriad reasons many of you have mentioned: that they resent the selfish focus of their partner, that they have a different timeframe, that they don't see the issue as pertinent to them, etc.) the alcoholic should just back off and let it be? Is that what you're saying?
I can't imagine a marriage where one partner just moves on and the other stays in the same place. That sounds like a good tombstone for the marriage. I think of marriage as a vital living thing that takes work to keep it alive.
Just because he has a right to have any feelings he has doesn't mean that our marriage will survive those feelings being bottled up and kept in a nice safe place.
I know it's up to him to decide to get help. I'm just trying to figure out what my options are if he never decides to get help. I do have to look seriously at leaving him and I really don't want to. If there's any way I could convince him to get help, I would much prefer that.
I'm also not saying that all of our problems our HIS. But I do have a pretty good case of I am getting help and he's not. I mean, just looking at the facts, clearly I am doing everything I can to stay sober and make myself a better person. Essentially, all I expect is that my husband stop dragging his heels and put some effort in too.
I think a marriage allows for us to say that to each other sometimes. To call eachother on things we see and ask for things we want. If we were so afraid of being codependent or selfish that we couldn't talk to each other about our feelings (oops, sorry about trying to understand you and please you, oops, sorry for sharing what's going on with me) I think we'd be in deep doo.
I think it's a balance. I try to respect his feelings and needs. I don't feel like I'm demanding that he heal on my timeframe. I just wish that I could begin to see SOME healing. Sometimes his resentment comes out so filled with fire and rage that it is just disproportionate to the situation.
I lied about my drinking for 9 months. That's the time he's angry about. According to him. I've been sober longer than I lied about it.
I sincerely hope I don't sound defensive. I'm sorry if I do. I feel like I'm learning and I appreciate your responses. I want to understand. I am not re-reading this because it's late so I might sound harsher than I really feel.
I'm sorry that this is triggering some of you in terms of your own loved ones wanting you to heal. All of the responses are very valuable to me but it's those responses that are so helpful because I think that you reflect what my husband is experiencing.
Thank you.
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
That sheds a lot more light on the situation, Mile. I think it's fine that you went to the restaurant if you both discussed it for months and both decided to give it a try. It turned out to be a good experience for you and a not so good experience for your hubby. He couldn't anticipate his feelings; neither could you.
My boyfriend, Richard, never lied to me about anything else except his drinking. But he lied about it so often over the years and so easily, I suspected he was probably lying about other things, too. It was hard for him to regain my trust when he had lied to me repeatedly for so long. He, too, never cheated on me, either. He simply got lost in a bottle every day of his life.
And although he didn't exhibit many of the behaviors I've read about on this forum, I still resented his drinking and the chaos and drama it brought into my life. For a period of 7 months, he was able to maintain sobriety. He went to daily AA meetings, called his sponsor daily, and worked the steps. Never once in that time--or any time for that matter--did he apologize to me or even attempt to make amends. I so wanted to hear him apologize and take responsibility for his behavior. But ultimately, it didn't matter and I forgave him just the same. But the damage to the relationship had been done, and it was too broken to be fixed overnight, so I asked him to leave.
We remained friends until the end of his life. He picked up the bottle again after seven months of sobriety and succumbed to alcoholism a little over a year ago. Sometimes my emotions run high when I talk about Richard or a recovering addict posts in this forum. It brings back lots of memories. Some of them good; lots of them bad.
I think it speaks volumes about you that you want to understand what you husband is thinking. Perhaps it's best to just ask him and then listen with an open mind.
I wish you and your hubby all the best.
My boyfriend, Richard, never lied to me about anything else except his drinking. But he lied about it so often over the years and so easily, I suspected he was probably lying about other things, too. It was hard for him to regain my trust when he had lied to me repeatedly for so long. He, too, never cheated on me, either. He simply got lost in a bottle every day of his life.
And although he didn't exhibit many of the behaviors I've read about on this forum, I still resented his drinking and the chaos and drama it brought into my life. For a period of 7 months, he was able to maintain sobriety. He went to daily AA meetings, called his sponsor daily, and worked the steps. Never once in that time--or any time for that matter--did he apologize to me or even attempt to make amends. I so wanted to hear him apologize and take responsibility for his behavior. But ultimately, it didn't matter and I forgave him just the same. But the damage to the relationship had been done, and it was too broken to be fixed overnight, so I asked him to leave.
We remained friends until the end of his life. He picked up the bottle again after seven months of sobriety and succumbed to alcoholism a little over a year ago. Sometimes my emotions run high when I talk about Richard or a recovering addict posts in this forum. It brings back lots of memories. Some of them good; lots of them bad.
I think it speaks volumes about you that you want to understand what you husband is thinking. Perhaps it's best to just ask him and then listen with an open mind.
I wish you and your hubby all the best.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
mle, this said a lot to me:
Flipping this around a bit: Could HE have convinced YOU to get help before you were ready? Maybe so, but for many alcoholics not really possible.
If you were on the other side of the fence (with us, the non-alcoholics) we'd be suggesting that you perhaps set a boundary: I'm going to give this everything I've got for (insert time period) and then I'm just going to assume that the damage done is irreparable and I'm going to move on.
Only you can decide when that boundary should be. A year of perfect sobriety? Two? Five?
How long was life really dreadful for him due to your alcoholism? How many years? If you were to be sober for that long successfully, would that help him to trust you again? (Does the thought of that send shivers down your spine, or are you fine with it?)
On this side of the fence too, we always have to live with the fact that alcoholics are never cured. They're just working & choosing to be sober....today. The threat of relapse hangs over your husband's head every single day, for the rest of his life, like an anvil on a rope. That may or may not be something he's constitutionally built to live with. If not, then he needs to find it in himself to be honest with you now, rather than later. Perhaps he's worried that, if he's honest about this, or if he wants to split, then you will fall back into drinking again, and he's avoiding that guilt by keeping things reasonably civil for now.
Only he knows that. Have you talked about it? Does he want to be together? How does he feel about the possibility that some day you might relapse?
These are all miserably hard questions, and I'm sorry. But they're what comes up when I think about your situation.
Hugs to you from your fellow coloradan - enjoy the good weather for a couple more days!!
GL
I know it's up to him to decide to get help. I'm just trying to figure out what my options are if he never decides to get help. I do have to look seriously at leaving him and I really don't want to. If there's any way I could convince him to get help, I would much prefer that.
If you were on the other side of the fence (with us, the non-alcoholics) we'd be suggesting that you perhaps set a boundary: I'm going to give this everything I've got for (insert time period) and then I'm just going to assume that the damage done is irreparable and I'm going to move on.
Only you can decide when that boundary should be. A year of perfect sobriety? Two? Five?
How long was life really dreadful for him due to your alcoholism? How many years? If you were to be sober for that long successfully, would that help him to trust you again? (Does the thought of that send shivers down your spine, or are you fine with it?)
On this side of the fence too, we always have to live with the fact that alcoholics are never cured. They're just working & choosing to be sober....today. The threat of relapse hangs over your husband's head every single day, for the rest of his life, like an anvil on a rope. That may or may not be something he's constitutionally built to live with. If not, then he needs to find it in himself to be honest with you now, rather than later. Perhaps he's worried that, if he's honest about this, or if he wants to split, then you will fall back into drinking again, and he's avoiding that guilt by keeping things reasonably civil for now.
Only he knows that. Have you talked about it? Does he want to be together? How does he feel about the possibility that some day you might relapse?
These are all miserably hard questions, and I'm sorry. But they're what comes up when I think about your situation.
Hugs to you from your fellow coloradan - enjoy the good weather for a couple more days!!
GL
Yield beautiful changes
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,695
Originally Posted by mle-sober
I can't imagine a marriage where one partner just moves on and the other stays in the same place. That sounds like a good tombstone for the marriage. I think of marriage as a vital living thing that takes work to keep it alive.
It would/will kill my partnership with my husband if he is unable to walk his own path to recovery. I am no longer terrorized by this possibility.
Today, I am not in a hurry to make decisions based on fear. I do not know what tomorrow will hold, but I know that it will be blessed so long as I focus on enhancing my understanding and taking care of my needs. There is no need to fear the future.
Breathe deep. Give it time.
Try not to catastrophize. If you are generally happy and content with the relationship, perhaps you can focus on accepting your husband's struggle for now.
If, in time, you continue to feel that the relationship isn't meeting your needs, you can make the necessary decisions.
Take care.
-TC
mle-sober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,243
Hmmmm....
Very interesting and helpful. A lot for me to think about.
I have apologized from the bottom of my heart uncountable times. And I haven't relapsed once. I've tried to share everything about my past and my sobriety as he has asked for it.
When I first got sober, he was so incredibly, terribly, almost visciously angry. He radiated anger. I had to just steer clear and work on me. Staying in the guest room helped me stay on course and stay sober and not let his anger get to me. Due to having grown up with a lot of anger in my house, I have a terrible time tolerating anger around me.
My therapist asked me, at the beginning of my sobriety, how long I thought I was willing to tolerate my husband being angry with me. I said I thought it was reasonable and I could handle it for about a year. But I'm coming up on a year now and I can't picture him suddenly addressing his anger. And I can't picture leaving him.
I think one of my mistakes is that I tried to say what I thought was a reasonable amount of time for him to be angry. Not just how long I could handle it. When I read your generous posts, I see that those are two different things.
His anger has slowly decreased but it sometimes flares up and he directs a kind of sneering contempt at me that I think is mean, inappropriate and uncalled for. I guess that is what I need to decide if I can accept and for how long.
In truth, I can't imagine setting a time limit on it. It hurts me each time but I might just have to accept it. I might just have to fully "get it" that it's not really about me. It's about him.
I wish I were better at getting out of the way when it happens. Instead I step closer to the anger and plead with him to forgive me. We always end up having a fight in which he rains contempt and blame down on me and I try to explain my actions or protect my kids or describe my motives. Or respond in whatever way I can to the seemingly random thing he is angry about.
I don't know if I could ever leave him.
Thank you for the help. I think I will put a little "cheat sheet" in my wallet to help guide me when it happens again. I can take it out and remember this conversation.
It should say:
He has to live with not knowing if I will ever relapse.
He is afraid.
Get out of the way of his anger until it dies down.
Thanks, guys. Any other suggestions for the list are welcomed.
Very interesting and helpful. A lot for me to think about.
I have apologized from the bottom of my heart uncountable times. And I haven't relapsed once. I've tried to share everything about my past and my sobriety as he has asked for it.
When I first got sober, he was so incredibly, terribly, almost visciously angry. He radiated anger. I had to just steer clear and work on me. Staying in the guest room helped me stay on course and stay sober and not let his anger get to me. Due to having grown up with a lot of anger in my house, I have a terrible time tolerating anger around me.
My therapist asked me, at the beginning of my sobriety, how long I thought I was willing to tolerate my husband being angry with me. I said I thought it was reasonable and I could handle it for about a year. But I'm coming up on a year now and I can't picture him suddenly addressing his anger. And I can't picture leaving him.
I think one of my mistakes is that I tried to say what I thought was a reasonable amount of time for him to be angry. Not just how long I could handle it. When I read your generous posts, I see that those are two different things.
His anger has slowly decreased but it sometimes flares up and he directs a kind of sneering contempt at me that I think is mean, inappropriate and uncalled for. I guess that is what I need to decide if I can accept and for how long.
In truth, I can't imagine setting a time limit on it. It hurts me each time but I might just have to accept it. I might just have to fully "get it" that it's not really about me. It's about him.
I wish I were better at getting out of the way when it happens. Instead I step closer to the anger and plead with him to forgive me. We always end up having a fight in which he rains contempt and blame down on me and I try to explain my actions or protect my kids or describe my motives. Or respond in whatever way I can to the seemingly random thing he is angry about.
I don't know if I could ever leave him.
Thank you for the help. I think I will put a little "cheat sheet" in my wallet to help guide me when it happens again. I can take it out and remember this conversation.
It should say:
He has to live with not knowing if I will ever relapse.
He is afraid.
Get out of the way of his anger until it dies down.
Thanks, guys. Any other suggestions for the list are welcomed.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
Here is one that was on my list: "My life is about me."
I'm always astonished at how similar we all sound (alcoholics and nons alike):
The dangerous place I found myself in, as someone who'd fallen in with alcoholics, was that I could not imagine leaving no matter what dreadful stuff was happening to me. My happiness seemed inextricably tangled up with "his" presence in my life, in its current form. I was willing to tolerate a lot of pain because of this strange human knot.
Your life is about you. From some of the things you've said here, mle, it seems like you're often forced into a defensive, pleading mode even when you know you're in the right. That can't feel very good. Maybe you don't feel you have the right to set boundaries for yourself, as in "I know you're still very angry over what has happened, but if you continue with these irrational angry outbursts, especially in front of our kids, I will need to remove myself from this relationship. I'm doing the best I can to make amends, and this isn't something I'm willing to tolerate any more."
Do you feel you have the right to defend your space in that way?
I'm always astonished at how similar we all sound (alcoholics and nons alike):
...think one of my mistakes is that I tried to say what I thought was a reasonable amount of time for him to be angry. Not just how long I could handle it....
...I guess that is what I need to decide if I can accept and for how long....
...I don't know if I could ever leave him....
Your life is about you. From some of the things you've said here, mle, it seems like you're often forced into a defensive, pleading mode even when you know you're in the right. That can't feel very good. Maybe you don't feel you have the right to set boundaries for yourself, as in "I know you're still very angry over what has happened, but if you continue with these irrational angry outbursts, especially in front of our kids, I will need to remove myself from this relationship. I'm doing the best I can to make amends, and this isn't something I'm willing to tolerate any more."
Do you feel you have the right to defend your space in that way?
mle-sober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by GiveLove
Here is one that was on my list: "My life is about me."
...
Your life is about you. From some of the things you've said here, mle, it seems like you're often forced into a defensive, pleading mode even when you know you're in the right. That can't feel very good. Maybe you don't feel you have the right to set boundaries for yourself, as in "I know you're still very angry over what has happened, but if you continue with these irrational angry outbursts, especially in front of our kids, I will need to remove myself from this relationship. I'm doing the best I can to make amends, and this isn't something I'm willing to tolerate any more."
Do you feel you have the right to defend your space in that way?
...
Your life is about you. From some of the things you've said here, mle, it seems like you're often forced into a defensive, pleading mode even when you know you're in the right. That can't feel very good. Maybe you don't feel you have the right to set boundaries for yourself, as in "I know you're still very angry over what has happened, but if you continue with these irrational angry outbursts, especially in front of our kids, I will need to remove myself from this relationship. I'm doing the best I can to make amends, and this isn't something I'm willing to tolerate any more."
Do you feel you have the right to defend your space in that way?
I can add your suggested statement. I think it's a really good suggestion. But I can tell that I don't fully grasp it, really. It's hard to imagine really coming from that place. My life doesn't feel like it's about me. It feels like it's about my children and my husband. And my mother who I'm very close to.
I feel quite teary reading your reply so I know there's something there for me to de-tangle.
Thank you.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
But ultimately, it's not very fun to be with someone who not only doesn't show appreciation and enthusiasm for you and the important things in your life.
Hiya Mle--
Congrats on 9 months sober.
I think you mentioned you drank for 25 years? That's a long time. My father also had a 25+ year drinking career under his belt when he found AA and sobriety/recovery. I was a teenager at the time - he had drank for the first 15 years of my life. My whole life at that time!! I saw things I wish I'd never seen, heard things I wish I'd never heard, and suffered in ways he and my codie mom could never begin to imagine.
The first year of my dad's sobriety was a shock and I think we all were just numb. For my part I was cautious and watching and just shattered and nervous and scared. My mom was very angry (but she was always angry so....) and very touchy and lost.
After a year I started to relax a little- my dad was changing before my eyes. He apologized to each of us, (5 kids) individually and with real sincerity. His sincerity was borne out in his behavior. He didn't drink, and he continued to grow and change. He neither boasted of his sobriety nor tried to diminish the HELL it was for us to live through his drinking. He didn't grovel or anything, he was just, well I guess "humble" is the word. If he had any expectation of how we would react to his sobriety he never shared it or burdened us with it.
My mother's codependency really damaged some of her very best qualities. But, as I said, she was angry all my life - so that's just who she is, she wasn't gonna become not angry just cuz my dad quit drinking. Their marriage survived - obviously I can't really know whether it was great for them or not - they had a lot of fun in the last 20 yrs of my dad's life...but my mother would drive me through the roof as a "partner." And she went to AlAnon for 7 years!!
When I felt that I had entered into the same dynamic in my marriage - when I recognized that - I got OUT. I wasn't going to do what my mom did and go through that hell for 25 years, and possibly lose myself in the process...I wasn't strong enough or sick enough to wait around for 25 years waiting for someone else to change- and I knew I couldn't change if I stayed with that person - the dynamic is too toxic for me.
I quoted you above because that's how it felt to be the daughter of an alcoholic and how it felt to be married to someone who was rigid, unhealthy, and was content to stay that way.
As a kid I had no choice. As an adult I decide who I can live with and why. You're changing, he is changing too, maybe not in ways you expected, but try to trust the process. As more is revealed you will have a better sense of what to do...right now it is still early, and I guess from what I've seen in my life a pattern of years doesn't come undone in months....and some relationships are only useful and meaningful when they are codie/alkie and when that dynamic goes away so does the reason for the relationship... sad but it makes sense.
Good luck in your recovery!
peace-
B.
Hiya Mle--
Congrats on 9 months sober.
I think you mentioned you drank for 25 years? That's a long time. My father also had a 25+ year drinking career under his belt when he found AA and sobriety/recovery. I was a teenager at the time - he had drank for the first 15 years of my life. My whole life at that time!! I saw things I wish I'd never seen, heard things I wish I'd never heard, and suffered in ways he and my codie mom could never begin to imagine.
The first year of my dad's sobriety was a shock and I think we all were just numb. For my part I was cautious and watching and just shattered and nervous and scared. My mom was very angry (but she was always angry so....) and very touchy and lost.
After a year I started to relax a little- my dad was changing before my eyes. He apologized to each of us, (5 kids) individually and with real sincerity. His sincerity was borne out in his behavior. He didn't drink, and he continued to grow and change. He neither boasted of his sobriety nor tried to diminish the HELL it was for us to live through his drinking. He didn't grovel or anything, he was just, well I guess "humble" is the word. If he had any expectation of how we would react to his sobriety he never shared it or burdened us with it.
My mother's codependency really damaged some of her very best qualities. But, as I said, she was angry all my life - so that's just who she is, she wasn't gonna become not angry just cuz my dad quit drinking. Their marriage survived - obviously I can't really know whether it was great for them or not - they had a lot of fun in the last 20 yrs of my dad's life...but my mother would drive me through the roof as a "partner." And she went to AlAnon for 7 years!!
When I felt that I had entered into the same dynamic in my marriage - when I recognized that - I got OUT. I wasn't going to do what my mom did and go through that hell for 25 years, and possibly lose myself in the process...I wasn't strong enough or sick enough to wait around for 25 years waiting for someone else to change- and I knew I couldn't change if I stayed with that person - the dynamic is too toxic for me.
I quoted you above because that's how it felt to be the daughter of an alcoholic and how it felt to be married to someone who was rigid, unhealthy, and was content to stay that way.
As a kid I had no choice. As an adult I decide who I can live with and why. You're changing, he is changing too, maybe not in ways you expected, but try to trust the process. As more is revealed you will have a better sense of what to do...right now it is still early, and I guess from what I've seen in my life a pattern of years doesn't come undone in months....and some relationships are only useful and meaningful when they are codie/alkie and when that dynamic goes away so does the reason for the relationship... sad but it makes sense.
Good luck in your recovery!
peace-
B.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
I am sure that I have read somewhere that repeatedly apologizing can be damaging.
You have apologized enough. Now your actions will speak for you.
And you can definitely make a boundary about being yelled at, demeaned, disrespected.
Walk away, go for a walk, go get an ice cream...anything, but do not accept this verbal abuse, please.
You have apologized enough. Now your actions will speak for you.
And you can definitely make a boundary about being yelled at, demeaned, disrespected.
Walk away, go for a walk, go get an ice cream...anything, but do not accept this verbal abuse, please.
mle-sober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by Bernadette
[COLOR="Red"]
I quoted you above because that's how it felt to be the daughter of an alcoholic and how it felt to be married to someone who was rigid, unhealthy, and was content to stay that way.
As a kid I had no choice. As an adult I decide who I can live with and why. You're changing, he is changing too, maybe not in ways you expected, but try to trust the process. As more is revealed you will have a better sense of what to do...right now it is still early, and I guess from what I've seen in my life a pattern of years doesn't come undone in months....and some relationships are only useful and meaningful when they are codie/alkie and when that dynamic goes away so does the reason for the relationship... sad but it makes sense.
I quoted you above because that's how it felt to be the daughter of an alcoholic and how it felt to be married to someone who was rigid, unhealthy, and was content to stay that way.
As a kid I had no choice. As an adult I decide who I can live with and why. You're changing, he is changing too, maybe not in ways you expected, but try to trust the process. As more is revealed you will have a better sense of what to do...right now it is still early, and I guess from what I've seen in my life a pattern of years doesn't come undone in months....and some relationships are only useful and meaningful when they are codie/alkie and when that dynamic goes away so does the reason for the relationship... sad but it makes sense.
Yes, I sometimes wonder if my family of origin has the dynamic of an alcoholic family. And if that has been part of my influence. My parents didn't drink much but my dad was angry and inscrutable all the time. My mom had an affair with a man who was sexually abusing me and my sister. We were told to tolerate it because it "wasn't that bad" and he was an important man. I started drinking after I was raped at 14. I felt like drinking was my best friend and comfort. It took me away from all the pain.
So my 4 children and my husband have only known me as a drunk. Heck, I barely recognize myself sober.
I am working hard to honor the person I am without alcohol. But I have a lifetime of amends to make.
( I think you're right Liveweyerd, that it is important to draw a boundary about being yelled at/demeaned/disrespected. I get so confused by it that I start searching for why he's angry at me, trying to understand. When what I should be doing, I guess, is just giving him space and taking care of me.)
Gosh, this has really helped clarify some things for me. I so sincerely appreciate it. Thank you.
:ghug
Last edited by DesertEyes; 11-23-2008 at 09:57 PM. Reason: fixed broken quote
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Mudgee NSW
Posts: 70
Hi mle-sober,
Congrats on your sobriety (one day at a time).
I have followed this post for the past two days. I don't often post because someone else seems to sum up what I have to say pretty well so I am content to read the discussion nodding and disagreeing behind the scenes so to speak.
But I am taking the plunge on this one and offereing my voice to the discussion.
Wow I think it is awesome for you to get to 10 months without a drink of alcohol on your first try. I sure wish that was the case with my AH whom I am still with and whom I love. He has had three goes at detox and re-hab and is now at the 90 day milestone. But this is the first time I have been to Al-anon. I went for me because I needed help. He had told me about the disease concept after the first two discharges from re-hab and I had known about al-anon from the literature he brought home and "left lying around". But I knew I didn't have a problem.........oh no not me. Throwing myself on the bonnet of a moving car driven by an intoxicated person (AH) to try to stop him driving was perfectly rational to me. Following him around the house barking and yapping insults at him while he was in an oblivious black out ............well that was what he deserved and I was perfectly entitled to do that, besides nobody could see me and I could get away with it.........and I won't bore you with all the rest of the humiliating behaviour I engaged in in my insanity. Of course I didn't tell anyone I did these things, I was a mental health professional, I was on the other side of the desk. I was just driven to it by his behaviour. But he had a problem, not me! But one day I couldn't stand myself any more. For me! I couldn't stand listening to my clients in counselling sessions and hearing my own behaviour. I had to either leave him or something had to change. I didn't know then that it was me....On a Sunday evening I drove 90 minutes to a smaller town where nobody would know me and stumbled into the rooms of Alanon. It was like a tonic. To my astonishment people chuckled and nodded when I disclosed my outrageous behavoiur, I wasn't able to dramatize it anymore........it was just run of the mill behaviour that most had experienced in the active phase of the disease. This wasn't what I expected, I thought people would at least blame him for all my misery, heartache, anxiety etc. I quickly got the idea that nobody was going to change anything about my AH for me.
There were stories there that seemed to be a lot more dismal than mine and the women and men were smiling and calm.............I thought "what is this some, kind of denial?" I resolved to go to 5 more meetings and am happy to say that I am still going and still getting the peace I got at the first meeting.
Sorry for taking so long to get to the point but here it is. I am learning about anger. My anger, and how much of it there is. Buckets and buckets and then some. I am not always great at dealing with it because I have been affected by the disease of alcoholism. It doesn't go away if I blame myself or my AH and it doesn't help to deny it.
If I accept that he is not reponsible for the fact that he is sick, then neither am I responsible for the effects of that same sickness on me. These insights have given me some hope of unlocking the blame cell I have been imprisoned in. I am not saying I can just "let it go" because it isn't possible to just forget deep pain and humiliation and bounce back saying "thanks for apologising now let's be happy". For me anyway that's just denial and would lead to a pretty superficial relationship. I would rather have a bit of hope and faith for the time being in it's authenticity and for now acceptance. Oh my goodness, isn't that the first step?
While I am not giving you advice, I am suggesting that just as you have been affected by the disease, so has your husband and it might just be that your acceptance of how he is feeling rather than to have expectations of him might allow him to develop and grow. You are amoungst friends by the way. My expectations of others always cause me more grief than I care to mention.
What's that slogan? Easy does it.
I't's working for me (one day at a time)
Congrats on your sobriety (one day at a time).
I have followed this post for the past two days. I don't often post because someone else seems to sum up what I have to say pretty well so I am content to read the discussion nodding and disagreeing behind the scenes so to speak.
But I am taking the plunge on this one and offereing my voice to the discussion.
Wow I think it is awesome for you to get to 10 months without a drink of alcohol on your first try. I sure wish that was the case with my AH whom I am still with and whom I love. He has had three goes at detox and re-hab and is now at the 90 day milestone. But this is the first time I have been to Al-anon. I went for me because I needed help. He had told me about the disease concept after the first two discharges from re-hab and I had known about al-anon from the literature he brought home and "left lying around". But I knew I didn't have a problem.........oh no not me. Throwing myself on the bonnet of a moving car driven by an intoxicated person (AH) to try to stop him driving was perfectly rational to me. Following him around the house barking and yapping insults at him while he was in an oblivious black out ............well that was what he deserved and I was perfectly entitled to do that, besides nobody could see me and I could get away with it.........and I won't bore you with all the rest of the humiliating behaviour I engaged in in my insanity. Of course I didn't tell anyone I did these things, I was a mental health professional, I was on the other side of the desk. I was just driven to it by his behaviour. But he had a problem, not me! But one day I couldn't stand myself any more. For me! I couldn't stand listening to my clients in counselling sessions and hearing my own behaviour. I had to either leave him or something had to change. I didn't know then that it was me....On a Sunday evening I drove 90 minutes to a smaller town where nobody would know me and stumbled into the rooms of Alanon. It was like a tonic. To my astonishment people chuckled and nodded when I disclosed my outrageous behavoiur, I wasn't able to dramatize it anymore........it was just run of the mill behaviour that most had experienced in the active phase of the disease. This wasn't what I expected, I thought people would at least blame him for all my misery, heartache, anxiety etc. I quickly got the idea that nobody was going to change anything about my AH for me.
There were stories there that seemed to be a lot more dismal than mine and the women and men were smiling and calm.............I thought "what is this some, kind of denial?" I resolved to go to 5 more meetings and am happy to say that I am still going and still getting the peace I got at the first meeting.
Sorry for taking so long to get to the point but here it is. I am learning about anger. My anger, and how much of it there is. Buckets and buckets and then some. I am not always great at dealing with it because I have been affected by the disease of alcoholism. It doesn't go away if I blame myself or my AH and it doesn't help to deny it.
If I accept that he is not reponsible for the fact that he is sick, then neither am I responsible for the effects of that same sickness on me. These insights have given me some hope of unlocking the blame cell I have been imprisoned in. I am not saying I can just "let it go" because it isn't possible to just forget deep pain and humiliation and bounce back saying "thanks for apologising now let's be happy". For me anyway that's just denial and would lead to a pretty superficial relationship. I would rather have a bit of hope and faith for the time being in it's authenticity and for now acceptance. Oh my goodness, isn't that the first step?
While I am not giving you advice, I am suggesting that just as you have been affected by the disease, so has your husband and it might just be that your acceptance of how he is feeling rather than to have expectations of him might allow him to develop and grow. You are amoungst friends by the way. My expectations of others always cause me more grief than I care to mention.
What's that slogan? Easy does it.
I't's working for me (one day at a time)
mle-sober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,243
"your acceptance of how he is feeling rather than to have expectations of him might allow him to develop and grow."
Thank you for sharing your voice, Equinessa. I'm glad you did. Your statement above is one I will try to remember.
Thank you for sharing your voice, Equinessa. I'm glad you did. Your statement above is one I will try to remember.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Between the ocean and the mountains
Posts: 653
I really appreciate this thread. This is a tough subject for me. In my life, being betrayed and abandoned and emotionally damaged by an addict is, for me, as deeply wounding as infidelity. How long does it take a spouse to trust again when her husband has had a years-long affair with another woman? For me, the affair with the drug violated the relationship as terribly as a love affair would have.
So I am someone now who is wary of recovery from addiction, wary that it is even real. In my life I have yet to meet a recovering person who really manifests the 12 Steps over the long haul. People go in and out. But in my life, I have yet to know a truly recovering addict.
After being so damaged, it took me two years after the breakup with my addict to even find my anger. I was so emotionally spent that all I could do was try to hold together and find some hope for the future. Anger, outrage, was still not within my grasp. I was in pieces and didn't have the strength.
Personally, I would be offended by a recovering addict with less than a year of sobriety drawing the line, making demands, expecting joyous celebration that he or she is finally being a responsible and decent human being. Personally, I think a newly recovering addict has destroyed so many hearts and souls that, as far as I am concerned, the cleanup will take years of repair. New Orleans still suffers after Katrina and it is how many years now? Same thing.
I'm glad you found sobriety. But believe me, he knows a history you don't remember and did not feel. That he is still around at all is a miracle. I hope you allow him the dignity of outrage for as long as he feels it. And I hope you both find long-lasting recovery and repair. Best wishes to you both.
So I am someone now who is wary of recovery from addiction, wary that it is even real. In my life I have yet to meet a recovering person who really manifests the 12 Steps over the long haul. People go in and out. But in my life, I have yet to know a truly recovering addict.
After being so damaged, it took me two years after the breakup with my addict to even find my anger. I was so emotionally spent that all I could do was try to hold together and find some hope for the future. Anger, outrage, was still not within my grasp. I was in pieces and didn't have the strength.
Personally, I would be offended by a recovering addict with less than a year of sobriety drawing the line, making demands, expecting joyous celebration that he or she is finally being a responsible and decent human being. Personally, I think a newly recovering addict has destroyed so many hearts and souls that, as far as I am concerned, the cleanup will take years of repair. New Orleans still suffers after Katrina and it is how many years now? Same thing.
I'm glad you found sobriety. But believe me, he knows a history you don't remember and did not feel. That he is still around at all is a miracle. I hope you allow him the dignity of outrage for as long as he feels it. And I hope you both find long-lasting recovery and repair. Best wishes to you both.
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