Boundaries and children
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Africa
Posts: 65
Boundaries and children
Hi everyone! What are good boundaries in your experience? I set some a couple of days ago for my H without really knowing they were boundaries. They were:
Don't be around our kids if you are drunk, stay somewhere else or come home after they are in bed.
Don't ever drive me or the kids if you are drunk.
If you want to talk to me about something, wait til you are sober.
If we go to a social event together we will go in separate cars.
I am sure boundaries are very personal, but any good ones that could be recommended?
Also, I have always tried to shield my kids (9, 7 and 2) from their dad's binge drinking but I have read here that many of you recommend being open with them, which I understand. I guess though that they don't need TMI. I've told my eldest son that I hate daddy drinking too much, that it makes me cross and stressed and that I know that sometimes I take it out on them by snapping at them or telling them to go to bed, but later I apologise. Do he and his siblings need to know more than that? What have other mums said to their kids? When they ask where daddy is do you say "He's in a bar." or do you lie like me and say "He has a meeting."?
Thanks! XX
Don't be around our kids if you are drunk, stay somewhere else or come home after they are in bed.
Don't ever drive me or the kids if you are drunk.
If you want to talk to me about something, wait til you are sober.
If we go to a social event together we will go in separate cars.
I am sure boundaries are very personal, but any good ones that could be recommended?
Also, I have always tried to shield my kids (9, 7 and 2) from their dad's binge drinking but I have read here that many of you recommend being open with them, which I understand. I guess though that they don't need TMI. I've told my eldest son that I hate daddy drinking too much, that it makes me cross and stressed and that I know that sometimes I take it out on them by snapping at them or telling them to go to bed, but later I apologise. Do he and his siblings need to know more than that? What have other mums said to their kids? When they ask where daddy is do you say "He's in a bar." or do you lie like me and say "He has a meeting."?
Thanks! XX
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 684
Hi Jo,
Boundaries have always been a challenge for me and I'm actually learning more about boundaries now by reading Cloud and Townsend's Boundaries, Boundaries with Kids, and Boundaries in Marriage.
Sounds like you have started some good ones so far to help deflect some of the negative influences your AH's drinking might cause. I personally think riding in separate cars to an outing or an event is a good idea, partly because you won't be forced to stay in a situation that causes you pain or discomfort. It allows your AH to deal with his own consequences.
My kids are 5 years old and in the past when AH's drinking and drug use caused a bad car accident and he was out of the home for 3 months in detox/rehab I did explain to them why their father could not be at home. Not sure if they fully understood everything because I also shielded them from his drinking and usage but they understand that people can become sick on drugs and alcohol. AH is using again and again my boundaries are no drinking in the house or around the children, no using any substances around the children. No driving me or the kids around if he's been drinking or using. I have other boundaries such as not using my vehicle to go out in or the debit card. If he takes out any cash... he gets a set amount and that's it. I do hide my keys and purse after he's gone just for my own protection. I also have my own bank account that he doesn't have access to.
I think with the older kids it's o.k. to be honest and then if he/she needs to talk about it be able to talk about it. Your youngest probably won't get it for a while. Family secrets are not good... I believe being honest gives the children an opportunity to form their own opinions and have authentic feelings about what goes on in their house.. if they are having a hard time I suggest counseling or Alateen to help them cope.
ODAT,
AJ
Boundaries have always been a challenge for me and I'm actually learning more about boundaries now by reading Cloud and Townsend's Boundaries, Boundaries with Kids, and Boundaries in Marriage.
Sounds like you have started some good ones so far to help deflect some of the negative influences your AH's drinking might cause. I personally think riding in separate cars to an outing or an event is a good idea, partly because you won't be forced to stay in a situation that causes you pain or discomfort. It allows your AH to deal with his own consequences.
My kids are 5 years old and in the past when AH's drinking and drug use caused a bad car accident and he was out of the home for 3 months in detox/rehab I did explain to them why their father could not be at home. Not sure if they fully understood everything because I also shielded them from his drinking and usage but they understand that people can become sick on drugs and alcohol. AH is using again and again my boundaries are no drinking in the house or around the children, no using any substances around the children. No driving me or the kids around if he's been drinking or using. I have other boundaries such as not using my vehicle to go out in or the debit card. If he takes out any cash... he gets a set amount and that's it. I do hide my keys and purse after he's gone just for my own protection. I also have my own bank account that he doesn't have access to.
I think with the older kids it's o.k. to be honest and then if he/she needs to talk about it be able to talk about it. Your youngest probably won't get it for a while. Family secrets are not good... I believe being honest gives the children an opportunity to form their own opinions and have authentic feelings about what goes on in their house.. if they are having a hard time I suggest counseling or Alateen to help them cope.
ODAT,
AJ
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Good for you for wanting to establish boundaries. I hate to say it but you seem to be setting rules rather than boundaries. The ones you posted are all aimed at controlling your AH rather than being aimed at what you will do.
For instance, you wrote:
"Don't be around our kids if you are drunk, stay somewhere else or come home after they are in bed."
That is trying to control what he does, setting a rule for him like he is a child.
Stated as a boundary, it would be something along the lines of:
"If you are drunk around me or the kids, I will do X."
This puts the focus off trying to control his drinking and on to you taking action because you find the behavior unacceptable to be around.
Does that help?
As to telling the kids, keep it age appropriate, do not place blame. I don't want to nitpick at your words, but the way you have it phrased above does indeed send a somewhat negative message about their dad. Wording these things can be very difficult. Perhaps try to keep your appology for your behavior about you without putting blame for your behavior on their dad? Explain that dad is sick but don't use that as an excuse for your behaviors? Does that make sense to you?
For instance, you wrote:
"Don't be around our kids if you are drunk, stay somewhere else or come home after they are in bed."
That is trying to control what he does, setting a rule for him like he is a child.
Stated as a boundary, it would be something along the lines of:
"If you are drunk around me or the kids, I will do X."
This puts the focus off trying to control his drinking and on to you taking action because you find the behavior unacceptable to be around.
Does that help?
As to telling the kids, keep it age appropriate, do not place blame. I don't want to nitpick at your words, but the way you have it phrased above does indeed send a somewhat negative message about their dad. Wording these things can be very difficult. Perhaps try to keep your appology for your behavior about you without putting blame for your behavior on their dad? Explain that dad is sick but don't use that as an excuse for your behaviors? Does that make sense to you?
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 36
your post really gave me something to think about barbara. i tend to be the same way, telling him "you did this or you can't...." when he is drinking. it makes sense to re-word it and the point will get across instead of him turning it around on you and accusing you of complaining at him.
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 596
I have a few...
He doesn't leave the immediate area with our kids.
I don't leave town unless we have a family member come stay with him and the kids, who is responsible and doesn't think it's okay to supervise children while passed out in the recliner.
There have been times both of these self-imposed boundaries have been taxing on me. I'd like a break. But my AH is an active alcoholic. His choice, just as me not trusting the safety provided to my children by an active alcoholic is my choice.
One thing I wonder, regarding what someone else wrote, is the boundary.....
If you are drunk, we will leave. That seems like such a tough one for me. In theory, it's great. But, for example, let's say we put the kids to bed and he's chugging himself into oblivion. The kids get back up. Now he's drunk and they are awake. But it's 10pm at night. Do I really want to pack them in the car and go find a hotel? I did set that boundary, but at the moment, it's easier to walk them back to bed.
Or, my AH's sponsor tells me to kick him out when he's drinking. We live in the country, in a neighborhood where everybody knows everybody. I asked the sponsor, how do I get him to leave? He said, that's for AH to figure out. So, I did tell him I wanted him to leave one night and he said no. He slides into a bedroom and finishes drinking himself blind. If he's not a domestic disturbance, then I just let it go.
Those boundaries are hard for me. He's really good at hiding his drunkenness, so it's easy for me to detect but not always easy for other people.
I don't know. I'm just not really into the drama of packing up our bags and leaving with the intention of scaring him. If I pack my bags, it's because I'm leaving, period.
He doesn't leave the immediate area with our kids.
I don't leave town unless we have a family member come stay with him and the kids, who is responsible and doesn't think it's okay to supervise children while passed out in the recliner.
There have been times both of these self-imposed boundaries have been taxing on me. I'd like a break. But my AH is an active alcoholic. His choice, just as me not trusting the safety provided to my children by an active alcoholic is my choice.
One thing I wonder, regarding what someone else wrote, is the boundary.....
If you are drunk, we will leave. That seems like such a tough one for me. In theory, it's great. But, for example, let's say we put the kids to bed and he's chugging himself into oblivion. The kids get back up. Now he's drunk and they are awake. But it's 10pm at night. Do I really want to pack them in the car and go find a hotel? I did set that boundary, but at the moment, it's easier to walk them back to bed.
Or, my AH's sponsor tells me to kick him out when he's drinking. We live in the country, in a neighborhood where everybody knows everybody. I asked the sponsor, how do I get him to leave? He said, that's for AH to figure out. So, I did tell him I wanted him to leave one night and he said no. He slides into a bedroom and finishes drinking himself blind. If he's not a domestic disturbance, then I just let it go.
Those boundaries are hard for me. He's really good at hiding his drunkenness, so it's easy for me to detect but not always easy for other people.
I don't know. I'm just not really into the drama of packing up our bags and leaving with the intention of scaring him. If I pack my bags, it's because I'm leaving, period.
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Originally Posted by respektingme 
If you are drunk, we will leave. That seems like such a tough one for me. In theory, it's great. But, for example, let's say we put the kids to bed and he's chugging himself into oblivion. The kids get back up. Now he's drunk and they are awake. But it's 10pm at night. Do I really want to pack them in the car and go find a hotel? I did set that boundary, but at the moment, it's easier to walk them back to bed.
Putting them back to bed would be a form of leaving him alone, don't you think? Too many take the "leave" bit too literally. Leaving can be as simple as going to another room (several times if the A follows you around).
Originally Posted by respektingme
Or, my AH's sponsor tells me to kick him out when he's drinking. We live in the country, in a neighborhood where everybody knows everybody. I asked the sponsor, how do I get him to leave? He said, that's for AH to figure out. So, I did tell him I wanted him to leave one night and he said no. He slides into a bedroom and finishes drinking himself blind. If he's not a domestic disturbance, then I just let it go.
Originally Posted by respektingme
I'm just not really into the drama of packing up our bags and leaving with the intention of scaring him. If I pack my bags, it's because I'm leaving, period.
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Originally Posted by respektingme
If you are drunk, we will leave. That seems like such a tough one for me. In theory, it's great. But, for example, let's say we put the kids to bed and he's chugging himself into oblivion. The kids get back up. Now he's drunk and they are awake. But it's 10pm at night. Do I really want to pack them in the car and go find a hotel? I did set that boundary, but at the moment, it's easier to walk them back to bed.
L
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 36
I have left and gone back many times. It has gotten to the point where it doesn't make a statement or mean anything anymore to him. I left a week ago sunday and am now to the point where i don't call him. At first I was overwhelmed and called several times a day.
Since finding this board, I realized hounding him won't work. Nor will telling him repeatedly that he's drunk. I know he'll never quit, but I have to make the decision how I want to live.
However, I leave because he becomes so out of control verbally that I simply cannot take it. Going to another room simply wouldn't diffuse the situation.
If I stay, the arguments escalate from one subject to another. So it's easier for me to put up with it for as long as I can, then go. It's such a vicious circle. Because when I go back, he always uses that against me, such as "well you'll get mad and just leave again".
I'm beginning to acknowledge the madness that is living with him.
Since finding this board, I realized hounding him won't work. Nor will telling him repeatedly that he's drunk. I know he'll never quit, but I have to make the decision how I want to live.
However, I leave because he becomes so out of control verbally that I simply cannot take it. Going to another room simply wouldn't diffuse the situation.
If I stay, the arguments escalate from one subject to another. So it's easier for me to put up with it for as long as I can, then go. It's such a vicious circle. Because when I go back, he always uses that against me, such as "well you'll get mad and just leave again".
I'm beginning to acknowledge the madness that is living with him.
Yield beautiful changes
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Hi there! It sounds like you are doing a lot of thinking and taking some solid steps to protect yourself. Good for you!
I would encourage you to keep in mind that boundaries are for you - for your peace and protection.
I had a lot of trouble with this in the beginning (and I still struggle).
What brings you peace? For me, it's knowing that I have a list of friends and family to call if I need help and my husband is unavailable. I was feeling a lot of stress from worrying about my son and what would happen if his dad's -ism flared up for the day.
I wanted to make rules for my husband like:
"You cannot care for our child if you are under the influence."
That sounds like a reasonable thing to say, doesn't it?
But this did nothing for my peace of mind because I didn't trust him not to drink. I knew he would try - I knew he had good intentions, but those intentions had failed in the past and would most likely fail in the future, as well.
I was trying to protect myself by controlling his behavior instead of setting up a system to protect myself.
Now, for my peace of mind, I have a series of people that I can call to help me out with childcare needs if something goes awry. For instance, if my husband fails to pick our son up from daycare when I'm out of town (an imagined scenario that used to keep me from traveling), I have a plan.
I can call my:
1. Best friend
2. Pal from Mom's club
3. Friend from work
4. Next door neighbor
5. Babysitter
etc...
These people know what's going on in my life, and they are willing to help. I just work my way down the list.
Now that lets me sleep at night!
I have a boundary that affords me peace, without relying on my AH's ability to hold things together. It also helps keep me from feeling SO angry when he "lets me down again."
"If you are drinking, then I will care for our child or I will arrange for someone else to do so."
Also, I am very honest with our son (he's 3). I tell him about alcoholism, a sickness that makes you want to drink things that are bad for you. Daddy has it. His daddy had it, too. He doesn't like having it and he's trying to get better, but sometimes the sickness takes over and he acts strangely.
My son doesn't understand everything, but I would like for him to grow up knowing exactly what's going on. I'm done with shame.
Have a good one.
-TC
I would encourage you to keep in mind that boundaries are for you - for your peace and protection.
I had a lot of trouble with this in the beginning (and I still struggle).
What brings you peace? For me, it's knowing that I have a list of friends and family to call if I need help and my husband is unavailable. I was feeling a lot of stress from worrying about my son and what would happen if his dad's -ism flared up for the day.
I wanted to make rules for my husband like:
"You cannot care for our child if you are under the influence."
That sounds like a reasonable thing to say, doesn't it?
But this did nothing for my peace of mind because I didn't trust him not to drink. I knew he would try - I knew he had good intentions, but those intentions had failed in the past and would most likely fail in the future, as well.
I was trying to protect myself by controlling his behavior instead of setting up a system to protect myself.
Now, for my peace of mind, I have a series of people that I can call to help me out with childcare needs if something goes awry. For instance, if my husband fails to pick our son up from daycare when I'm out of town (an imagined scenario that used to keep me from traveling), I have a plan.
I can call my:
1. Best friend
2. Pal from Mom's club
3. Friend from work
4. Next door neighbor
5. Babysitter
etc...
These people know what's going on in my life, and they are willing to help. I just work my way down the list.
Now that lets me sleep at night!
I have a boundary that affords me peace, without relying on my AH's ability to hold things together. It also helps keep me from feeling SO angry when he "lets me down again."
"If you are drinking, then I will care for our child or I will arrange for someone else to do so."
Also, I am very honest with our son (he's 3). I tell him about alcoholism, a sickness that makes you want to drink things that are bad for you. Daddy has it. His daddy had it, too. He doesn't like having it and he's trying to get better, but sometimes the sickness takes over and he acts strangely.
My son doesn't understand everything, but I would like for him to grow up knowing exactly what's going on. I'm done with shame.
Have a good one.
-TC
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
heya Jobloggs-
You've started a great thread here - great insights about boundaries coming from everyone.
So I'll just throw in that I think the most important message to be sending children of an alcoholic parent is that it is NOT THEIR problem.
They didn't cause it.
They can't control it.
They can't cure it.
You want them to know that YOU know it is affecting them, and that you are there to talk about it anytime they want. But you also want them to know that it is not their burden to try and "handle."
Also be aware of the codie crap we teach them inadvertantly!! It may be true that dad's drinking is why you get angry and sometimes take it out on them. But that's not really OK is it?? So when you apologize, (which we all have to do as parents when we have behaved irrationally!!) be careful about putting the blame on dad's drinking. Try to take full responsibility for your own behavior.
It's so hard, because they are soaking up the dynamic of the alcoholic marriage no matter what you "say." The alcoholism is a fact, a reality.
I don't know about the lie - Dad's in a meeting. And then Dad comes home drunk? I have clear memories as far back as 2nd grade (so that's like 7 & 8 yrs old) of my father being in every state of inebriation- tipsy, drunk, wasted, blacked out. So don't think young kids don't recognize even a mildly altered state in dad. I was also super tuned-in to Mom's moods in relation to my Dad's altered states.
So I think that is such an interesting question you raised about lying to the kids....interested in other's thoughts.
Peace,
B.
You've started a great thread here - great insights about boundaries coming from everyone.
So I'll just throw in that I think the most important message to be sending children of an alcoholic parent is that it is NOT THEIR problem.
They didn't cause it.
They can't control it.
They can't cure it.
You want them to know that YOU know it is affecting them, and that you are there to talk about it anytime they want. But you also want them to know that it is not their burden to try and "handle."
Also be aware of the codie crap we teach them inadvertantly!! It may be true that dad's drinking is why you get angry and sometimes take it out on them. But that's not really OK is it?? So when you apologize, (which we all have to do as parents when we have behaved irrationally!!) be careful about putting the blame on dad's drinking. Try to take full responsibility for your own behavior.
It's so hard, because they are soaking up the dynamic of the alcoholic marriage no matter what you "say." The alcoholism is a fact, a reality.
I don't know about the lie - Dad's in a meeting. And then Dad comes home drunk? I have clear memories as far back as 2nd grade (so that's like 7 & 8 yrs old) of my father being in every state of inebriation- tipsy, drunk, wasted, blacked out. So don't think young kids don't recognize even a mildly altered state in dad. I was also super tuned-in to Mom's moods in relation to my Dad's altered states.
So I think that is such an interesting question you raised about lying to the kids....interested in other's thoughts.
Peace,
B.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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As an ACOA I've carried around big resentments most of my life simply because of the fact that NO ONE SAID ANYTHING. The elephant in the room was ignored. I can imagine those resentments might be even bigger if I was told the elephant was not an elephant. I don't think lying to children helps the situation at all. I believe in telling them the truth in the most age-appropriate, non-judgemental way I can muster.
And yes, I also agree that it is important to take responsibility for my inappropriate behavior and not blame it on someone else, alcoholic or not.
L
And yes, I also agree that it is important to take responsibility for my inappropriate behavior and not blame it on someone else, alcoholic or not.
L
Alcohol is a cruel mistress!!!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: crownpoint newyork
Posts: 820
My personal boundaries for me and the kids are no alcohol anywhere in or around the house. If he has over indulged I have asked him to go stay directly to the camper so the kids aren't exposed to his drunkenness, so he avoids this as he is a tv junkie. lol Of course never drive with the kids. I want my kids not to have to have as little drama as possible with alcohol. Yours are great too....
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Africa
Posts: 65
Thank you all for your comments - you have really given me something to think about, especially Barbara52. You are right, I am trying to control my H - I find it so hard to let go of that - and I am blaming him for my behaviour, and I know that's wrong. I know I need to step out of the dance we are in. Thanks for your very practical advice.
I am going to go and see a counsellor next week who deals with addictions - I have seen him before with my H and he is great. H said he felt judged and doesn't want to go again, but I guess I need to do some work on myself.
I have found out there is an AlAnon group here, but it meets at 2pm on a Thursday!!! It's so hard trying to fit that in what with 3 kids, a job, a home to run, and an H who wants to get trashed all the time. But you know that, right?! XX
I am going to go and see a counsellor next week who deals with addictions - I have seen him before with my H and he is great. H said he felt judged and doesn't want to go again, but I guess I need to do some work on myself.
I have found out there is an AlAnon group here, but it meets at 2pm on a Thursday!!! It's so hard trying to fit that in what with 3 kids, a job, a home to run, and an H who wants to get trashed all the time. But you know that, right?! XX
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