Morning Glory

Could you start a new thread when a discussion gets going? I really hate to see a thread turn into a discussion that ignores the original thread starter's request for advice and ignores them completely when you start talking to each other.

That leaves you free to discuss and the original thread open to address the member's original request.

Thank you

doorknob

It seems like what we are discussing, are the very issues that come up when nontheistic people try to take part in 12-Step programs. Some of the posts here are just like one of us going into the 'Christians in Recovery' forum, and refuting what they believe. I posted once on there about how I couldn't believe, relating to someone who was having trouble believing, and my post was removed. We shouldn't even have to debate the validity of 'spiritual' or faith based programs here. Am I the only one who feels this way?

historyteach

I'm not sure, DK, to be honest.

I've studied multiple religious systems of belief. And I am open to them as well as to athiest and agnostic systems. I find the study fascinating in and of itself.

I don't think this forum should be a continual fight over faith vs nontheist views. That would serve nothing.

But, do we really want to say that a faith system should NEVER be discussed here?

Just my thought here, but, the conversation would dry up pretty quickly if that were the case. And it would probably be pretty boring while it was happening if we all said only the same thing.

These are only my opinions; worth no more and no less than any other opinions.

Love to hear more of this topic.
Shalom!

Morning Glory

There are some secular members who use those programs and don't see them as faith based.

Here is the original message when opening this forum.

The best way to avoid a debate is to avoid negative remarks about people or programs that draw others in to defend themselves.

If I say I don't like going to church because I don't share the same beliefs that is less likely to start a debate than saying I don't like church because they are all a bunch of hypocrites.

Peter

That is why I usually respond to the original post before I read the replies.

2dayzmuse

Let me just ask this. I am not an atheist. I believe in a HP. Is it alright if I come in and post on a secular forum? I don't know if I am welcome or not. Of course I'm not trying to convince others to believe in my beliefs and I respect others for their beliefs. I may not agree, but I hope I am allowing others their right to believe. Let me know if I am doing otherwise. My problem is just what MG mentioned. Sometimes I feel compelled to defend my program. But on the other hand, I get some very good insight on other people's views and beliefs. I think that is okay, great even. What are other people's feelings on this?

shockozulu

I am very religious, but I work a secular program. I feel very welcome on this forum if that helps any.

doorknob

Muse, although this isn't my forum, I have no problem with anything you post, and you're more than welcome in my book.

doorknob

Just curious Alera... being that you're religious, what was it that steered you towards a secular program? I had a friend who did the same. Shoot, I guess that's off topic too...

And now I just read your other post, LOL!

shockozulu

One, I am more of a science based type. I do better with the written word (worksheets and so on) than ideas.

Second, I have always tried to keep my religion (Im Catholic BTW) separate from other activities. By this I simply mean that I prefer to not tie one into the other. I don't want to have to feel guilty to my god if I fail in recovery, I want to feel I can go to him for help and understanding so I won't do it again.

Third, my recovery needs to change my life perspectives. I grew up in a family where I was taught a lot of negative beliefs. For me, working CBT has enabled me not only to change how I think about my abuse and how to stop it, it also helps me reconize other negative behaviors that are not directly related to drug abuse. However, both the abuse and the other behaviors come from the same source. Why not fix all of me?

Fourth, I have felt that in NA meetings, the constant talk of drugs actually makes me want to use more. At my meetings, we talk about life changes, some include situations where drugs will be involved, some do not.

And finally, I lost two friends in NA. The first one was told that she would not be clean if she took her barb for her grand mal seizures. She had one at the NA meeting and died the next day.

2dayzmuse

That is awful Alera, horrific. I hope they certainly changed their views after that. That sort of nonsense really bothers me. The person or persons who told her that have to live with that for the rest of their lives.

equus

Hey - I hope you do come and post!! I have friends that believe in God and we get along fine, sometimes we even talk about our differing views and have no problem.

What helps me is clarity of expectations. I was serious that I don't place mtslef where my views are likely to cause offense. If I'm in a church I keep my beliefs well out of it, on the F&F people know I'm an aithiest but I don't talk about it often, I don't say why, I don't even say what that means to me because I think the majority are believers.

My (not so well recieved) comment was based on having seen the same debate on SR over and over again. The fact that this time it took place in a secular forum isn't that startling - it's taken place in nearly every other forum at some point. I OBSERVE that there seems to be a lack of clarity or the debates wouldn't continue ad infinitum, my own point being that clarity about whether 12 steps are faith based would probably help!!

For my part - I'd be sad to come in here and find anyone posting how X 'should' believe in god. I'm not sure if the place for personal stories about people's faith - just as I don't think the spiritual or christian forum would be the place for me to enter and talk about my growth in aitheism.

I suppose it's something I'm quite used to in a way - like I said I have friends that believe in god but also my work is secular and rightly so, it would be totally unproffessional for someone to start talking about their faith to me or me about aitheism to them.

My parents are religious - it's taken YEARS for them to wake up and smell the coffee that I'm happy as I am, and these days on the score of religion we get on fine. But just as they leave the subject with me - I don't start telling them they shouldn't believe.

That's my ESH - for what it's worth.

2dayzmuse

You know I agree there are times when the posters are really trying to get others to believe or join their train of thought. I was guilty of doing that in the past. I've recently come to terms with a few issues and try not to do that anymore. I really don't feel that it is my right to do. It isn't going to help and it does cause a fuss. I'm working on that and like I mentioned to someone earlier today, why must we all be cookie cutters in our beliefs? It is okay to be different and have an eclectic group. I always take something thought provoking away from these discussions. I think we all pretty much know where most of us stand on our belief systems. Is today the day where suddenly something is said that thing brings clarity to sway you to my beliefs? I don't think so, and why bother? It is not my place, nor a competition. I find much more peace in allowing others to be who they are.

shockozulu

I would love it if people would simply accept that there are different programs out there, and that some programs work better for some people. I won't die, end up in an institution or jail because I work SMART instead of the 12 steps. A stepper won't end up there because they don't work SMART.

I wish programs would teach that. It would make life so much easier. Sometimes I feel like we hold our programs in a light like religion--ours is the only right one. Its so frustrating!