It seems like what we are discussing, are the very issues that come up when nontheistic people try to take part in 12-Step programs. Some of the posts here are just like one of us going into the 'Christians in Recovery' forum, and refuting what they believe. I posted once on there about how I couldn't believe, relating to someone who was having trouble believing, and my post was removed. We shouldn't even have to debate the validity of 'spiritual' or faith based programs here. Am I the only one who feels this way?