Pathwaytofree

I've been sponsoring a woman for about a year. We're in the middle of Step 5. She's been a pretty good sponsee. She follows instructions. Sometimes she'll call me with family drama, and I try to help her see things from a different perspective. I'm not sure it gets through, though. I haven't actually heard her say things to me that acknowledge she's had a change in thought, perception, and action. But she is a good listener.

When we first went through steps 1, 2, and 3, I had my doubts she was a real alcoholic. I wasn't sure I wanted to work with her. After I asked her some questions, I decided that she's probably alcoholic and I will work with her. But now I have a strong sense she just gave me the answers she thought I wanted to hear. She seems to be that type of person. I catch her doing that from time to time.

She doesn't go to meetings too often, because she says she's very busy with her jobs and family.

I sometimes will teach her how I am teaching her so she will know what to do for her own Step 12. She is uninterested in learning this, and does not want to work with others. I decided not to confront her on this point--I always ask my sponsees during Step 3 if they are willing to help others. She had said yes.

Now and then, she'll want to do something with me as a friend. It's not overbearing, but it comes up. I explained that I don't become friends with sponsees until they're in Step 9.

She's an older woman. She's divorced, and her siblings are all deceased. She has children and they have good relationships, but they are all super busy. She works, and seems to enjoy her jobs. To me, she seems very lonely. I've kept my boundaries, though, because I'm not looking to be friends with sponsees.

She's done a thorough 4th step, and we're in the middle of Step 5. It's draining. Hers is long. I met her for about 10 hours already. A lot of it was my trying to help her see her part in things, see things in a different perspective, and sharing my experience. She listened, but I'm just not sure she's getting it. She doesn't say anything in response. I think for the rest of her Step 5, I will just listen and not say anything. Also, two times we stopped for lunch, which ended up being an hour of eating and small talk.

Should I set firmer boundaries?

How can I tell if she's serious about her recovery and step work, or just doing this because she's lonely and maybe thinking "maybe I'll get something out of it"?

How do I practice good self-care during this draining 5th step? I did set a boundary because she was being extremely pushy with setting our next day for when SHE wants to meet. My personal life and schedule is not her business. Plus I just need a break. I finally had to be a little firm with her when she was trying to squeeze herself in to my day.

Please share your thoughts, suggestions, opinions, and experience.

sugarbear1

Has she not yet been humiliated by her own actions? Has she not yet seen her selfishness and self-centeredness?

Ken33xx

I wasn't sponsoring the individuals but both times the relationship ended badly. The two members wanted me as their AA buddy which is fine except I am fairly busy. One member is divorced and retired and the other a co-worker.

When I made it clear I wouldn't spend time away from AA meetings with them they got upset. When that didn't work they tried bad mouthing me to others. That didn't work either so they went into victim mode. That was a bust as well. I am still cordial but both understand my time is my time. (Interestingly they have both stopped attending meetings.)

I see my part. I was an enabler. I felt it was my job as a member of AA to be there when they needed help or wanted to talk. So I did for a couple of years but I no longer have the emotional energy to deal with the never ending drama.

I need to stay focus. My plate if full and I've got a stressful relocation coming next year and have a lot to do.

However, I have learned my lesson which is to stay away from AA drama. I see the same b.s. at meetings where I will be moving but won't allow myself to be dragged in.

fini

you know, PTF, i know peole do these exhaustive fifth steps, but i believe (opinion follows) that " the exact nature of our wrongs" does not refer to every single detail of each and every wrong we ever did.
but that isn't reallyyour question here.
i thinkit is not possible for ou to know if she is "just" lonely or serious, and of course she could be both or neither.
but i would think if she has done a thorough fourth and is going through five for endless hours, yeah, that strikes me as serious.
my sponsorperson was careful and held backwith adding their own perspective...they asked some questions and pointed out their own way of understanding the instructions, so to speak, but did not attempt to try and "make " me see , though they did bring a wider angle to the process.
maybe you have expectations of this sponsee that she does not meet?
Or expectations of this process and with this person it isn't quite going that way?
maybe expectations of yourself and how you "should" be able to guide and she 's just not there?

if you need a break, i think you need to make that clear to her. it sounds like you are getting into a resentment here, and that won't be good for either of you.

if hat is the case, you know what is suggested for resentments

Pathwaytofree

Nope! I was hoping she would've seen it at least during or after Step 5. I haven't gotten a single phone call yet of an epiphany or clarity. This doesn't make any sense.

I don't know if I could sit through the rest of her Step 5. I was thinking just get her to amends, because she'll likely balk at them and that's when I'll know for sure that she's not interested in truly recovering, or that she actually isn't one of us. But I don't know if I want to waste my time.

Ken & Fini--sorry I can't keep my eyes open; will reply tomorrow.

Ken33xx

Sometimes I think people in AA including myself over think what is going on. In AA we met all kinds of people. My experience has been most members mean well but there are those with codependency issues and others who feed off it.

In my situation I began to resent members who refused to respect my wishes. If I say I`m busy I don`t feel obligated to explain myself.

To her credit the OP regularly tries to help others but my advice would be strong boundaries are a must.

August252015

Perhaps she needs to revisit steps one through three?

Pathwaytofree

I think this is common. But not everyone wants to be friends in AA.

They likely took it personally. I think therapists and other people might say that AA is a good place to make friends since you have recovery in common.

Yup.... they thought you didn't like them, so they bad mouthed you "first". It's immature and fear based.

Wow they really tried everything. Sounds like they went into victim mode so they'd get attention, people would feel sorry for them, and they'd make friends out of pity.

Some people and meetings put a large focus on the fellowship aspect.

In my experience, fellowship can be viewed as:

-greeting a newcomer
-taking people through the steps
-chatting around the coffee pot for a few minutes
-going out to the diner before a meeting, or
-making long term friendships.
Everyone seems to have a different expectation and understanding of it.

I was like that too in the beginning. It was draining. I also don't have the emotional energy to deal with never ending drama. Dealing with mine in the past drained me enough, and now I'm just trying to rebuild.

That's a good rule of thumb to have.

Pathwaytofree

I completely agree with you, Fini. :-) I've already mentioned on here how harmful my exhaustive and very thorough 4th/5th step was...

It is definitely a factor, so it's worth mentioning. Listening to an exhaustive 5th step is draining, too. Not only just writing it and reading it out loud.

True.

That's sort of what I thought. But I'm just not sure what her motives are. I've never had a person who doesn't go to meetings, doesn't want to help others, seems to say what I want to hear, and doesn't seem to be having any change of thinking or epiphanies yet. Then again, I've heard that some people don't get it until after they're through with the work and help others.

That's sort of what I tried to do. When she'd read me resentments of a particular person, I tried to describe another possible perspective or angel to view the person and situation from. Is that what you mean? Or, I'd share a similar resentment/experience that I had, and how I now view it. I'll also ask her, "What would you think and do now, if a similar situation happened again?"

These are interesting possibilities to consider.....
Maybe I'm thinking she should be getting what I'm saying. Or maybe I'm thinking she should be further along by now. Perhaps I need more patience.

That is a good point. I didn't think a resentment was building, but now that you mention it........

I sure do! :-)

Pathwaytofree

That's a great suggestion. I'll have her read those pages again.

It's just bothering me that she doesn't seem to make any effort to go to meetings and she doesn't want to take people through this work. She's been to a self-help group called Lifespring, or something similar to it. I think she thinks AA is similar--like she views me as a "volunteer" or something, since I'm doing this "for free".

fini

" my sponsorperson was careful and held backwith adding their own perspective...they asked some questions and pointed out their own way of understanding the instructions, so to speak, but did not attempt to try and "make " me see , though they did bring a wider angle to the process."
**That's sort of what I tried to do. When she'd read me resentments of a particular person, I tried to describe another possible perspective or angel to view the person and situation from. Is that what you mean? Or, I'd share a similar resentment/experience that I had, and how I now view it. I'll also ask her, "What would you think and do now, if a similar situation happened again?"**

hm...no, that is not what i mean. i am having difficulty articulating, and also am a bit concerned about stepping on your toes
my sponsor widened the angle by asking ME if there might be other interpretations, and didn't suggest any as such. they took what i felt as just how i felt, and did not try to change either my feelings or my interpretation.
they gave me the room and the safety to come to other perspectives.
but really they just accepted that i was where i was at and felt what i felt and did not see it as their task to alter that, but proceeded through the process so that i could "clear the wreckage" as i experienced it and had come to see how i had harmed others, not as they(sponsor) perceived it.

but it is good to remember that i dd not do step five with my sponsor but chose a nun who was well-trained in hearing this step. who, btw, told me she generally allots a couple of hours for this but reassured me she would give me the time i needed if i felt i required more.

have you asked her if she feels lonely, and what her motivation is?

Tommyh

if she is in the steps,she is serious as long as she don`t start balking.

our job is to hear step 5,not interpret it,correct it, or point out their/others wrongs
sponsors should meet weekly with sponsee`s during the writing of step 4 to help if necessary and see they stay on track.So,there is no need to do any discussing on step 5,if any discussion is to be done,it should have already have been done.
We open those 2 ears of ours and hear what they reads as they give it to God and us.

sometimes 5th steps can be long,and a break is needed in the process.Nothing wrong with getting a bite and chit chatting but then,back to the business at hand.

her job is to develop a spiritual life as you 2 go along and trust the process that it will keep her sober.I never had a sponsee that did excally as I thought they should have done.Every single one was different.Allow her to make her own experience and spiritual progress

helping others will come later maybe.Leave it out of the situation for now.Too soon to bring that up..As a sponsor,my job is to trust God and rely on God that His will be done in them.
For them,sometimes it is just staying sober,sometimes it is more.One guy I sponsored turned out to be a AA dynamo.
Nothing I did,but it was him and God.I was just the big book guide that got to see it!

Pathwaytofree

Good point. I just have a very funny feeling she's going to balk at Steps 8/9. I'll have to wait and see.

My sponsor helped me change my thinking, because I wasn't getting it. It wasn't clicking. But I probably should do less of this for her and let her get it when she gets it.

My sponsor didn't really do this. She didn't look at my writing much. But we talked a lot. Can you clarify this for me, though? What sort of discussion should we be having during Step 4?

Beautifully stated.
I've also been jotting down her self-seeking behaviors in a list, and writing them as "Ego/self-centered" vs "Others/God-centered". I sometimes note names of possible amends, too, to go over this with her in Step 8/9.
True. It does break things up. Guess I needed to hear that.

That's very helpful to read. I should let go of expectations I have for her. This is her journey, and it's out of my hands.

Thank you for pointing that out. Perhaps by the time she gets to Step 12, she'll want to help others.

That must be so cool to observe! Is he a young kid?

Again that is so well said. I think I need to step back a little more, and let God do His work without me butting in.

Thank you, Tommy!!

Pathwaytofree

What kind of questions did they ask?
How can I bring a wider angle to the process, without making her "see" what she's not ready to see?

Please don't be concerned about stepping on my toes. I have a much thicker skin now that I had a spiritual awakening.

How? While she's reading her 5th step, I can hear it in her tone of voice, that she's still angry.

I did suggest she reread the pages in Step 4 about resentments and say the resentment prayer for a few of the big boulders she read about. I wasn't instructed to do that, but I think it may help her have some compassion. There's one person in particular who she thinks harmed her, and she has a lot of resentments toward, but I can tell her perspective about this person is way off. Maybe praying will help her see this person differently.

It's possible I had a tiny resentment myself building, because that particular person reminded me a little bit of myself from the past. I also was misperceived greatly by family members and friends in the way she's misperceiving this person. So maybe it just triggered something in me a little bit. Plus again, her tone of voice while reading resentments about this person was just rather nasty. But I didn't point that out. I gently gave her another possible perspective, and suggested the resentment prayer.

That must've been extremely helpful. My previous therapist offered to do my 5th step with me. If it was shorter, I would have taken him up on that offer. How did she help you see things differently?

No, I haven't. It's too painful a question to ask, I think. I can tell clearly she is, by the things she says, how she says it, her tone of voice, her facial expressions, and the things she says to me that break sponsor/sponsee boundaries but aren't a big deal.

Her motivation.... she wants to not drink. But I think she thinks going through the steps is a once and done sort of thing, by things she has said.

I guess I will continue taking her through step 5, instruct her on 6, 7, and 8, 9, and she if she follows through or not.

Tommyh

What sort of discussion should we be having during Step 4?

first my sponsor looked at mine to make sure I was making progress and not screwing around.Second he looked to make sure I was on track and not getting out in left field somewhere.
Trust the process
trust the process
trust the process
i bet i heard it 1000 times during the 4th step writing
it took the fear out of step 5 because he had already seen my 4th step
we didn`t discuss too much about the sickness,but the procedure of step 4

fini

well...see, i think if she's still angry, then fine, she's still angry.
doing four and sharing with another person and power greater than me as i understand that in takingthe fifth step was about sharing that, trusting someone else to hear it; anger, hurt, shame, humiliation and all.
my sponsor never attempted to make me feel differently or had anything resembling an agenda of how they thought i ought to see something or what a "better" perspective would be or that they knew what i was supposed to " get".
they never tried to be a director. they facilitated.
they guided me through the process by sharing their experience and knowledge. their questions were open- ended ones, with the aim of helping me clarify for myself, and they did not ever assume, as far as i can tell, that they knew how i felt. they asked me. straightforward, often as simple as the cliched " and how do you feel about that?" or "and what is your desired outcome in this situation?"
they never tried to change me, but led me through the steps of me allowing myself to be changed, so to speak.
when i read what you are thinking, or sure of, or afraid of here, i am concerned that you have an internal script which has you thinking you know how she feels, how she SHOULD feel and act, what she SHOULD be experiencing, how her journey through this ought to go and turn out.
it is hers, and the steps are the map, so to speak. how she walks that is hers to actually walk.
setting boundaries is necessary, and is about what you are willing and not willing to let into your life and space. boundaries are about ourselves.
quite different from from expectations we put on others about how they ought to act.

oh! the nun? she helped by listening, first and foremost, and accepting without judging, and directing me away from getting bogged in details into a wider view of seeing patterns. patterns relating to my 'defects of character' . quite a surprise, and definitely not what i had expected. it was not a reading of the multitude of pages i had written for step four, thoughi had brought that with me.
it really was a hearing and helping me discern the " nature of my wrongs", not the detailed enumeration.

Tommyh

great reply fini

they never tried to change me, but led me through the steps of me allowing myself to be changed

that`s it in a nutshell for me,my sponsor allowed me to have my own experience

fini

thanks, Tommy.

i find that hard to do, having a bit of a control streak.
so my sponsor has been a great example in that and i have reaped the benefits.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks everyone. I'm about to fall asleep but I have one very strange thing I should mention.

Not once in her fourth step "my part" (aka 4th column, where were we at fault, turnarounds, etc) did she write down "drank" in her self-seeking part. There was actually not a single type of addictive behavior mentioned. Isn't that really strange? I am truly beginning to doubt her being a real alcoholic.

Thanks Tommy and Fini. I'll reply to your posts tomorrow.

Pathwaytofree

Ok. I do that with my sponsees. It amazes me how simple directions are so often not understood, because of how much we live in our minds. I have yet to have a sponsee who can do a 4th step with just hearing the directions once. (I was the same way).

Great reminder. I heard this early on but have forgotten to say it to those I help. It's so true.

That's interesting you didn't discuss too much about the sickness. So your sponsor let you figure it out yourself?

What about sponsees who don't figure it out?

Thanks, Tommy!