Sasha1972

Hi everyone,

I haven't seen this mentioned in the codependency literature (maybe I just haven't read enough) but here's something that helped me a bit on this weekend:

A while ago I was talking to my long-suffering therapist about the feelings of dread, anxiety, despair etc that seem to flood over me whenever I have to deal with alcoholic ex. She suggested that I might be "taking on" or embodying feelings which I am unconsciously attributing to him. (I know this sounds kind of weird).

In other words: I assume, without even being aware of my assumption, that the experience of being an addict is characterized by fear, anger, anxiety and despair (and my limited reading of the memoirs and accounts produced by addicts in recovery supports this, as does even casual reading in the Alcoholics section of this website). So I associate ex with despair, fear, anger, etc.

When I encounter ex, it's almost like I absorb or reabsorb these emotions from him. This process is facilitated by having been with ex for 25 years, married and not, before I left, and by his having no real emotional boundaries, so whatever he's feeling, he projects onto everyone else.

What helps, I found, is when I'm feeling "triggered" (anxious, fearful, angry) to ask myself "Do these emotions belong to me?" (or are they my reflections of what I imagine the addict to be feeling as he acts out his anger towards me. That question seems to have a calming effect and helps me sort out what I feel, as distinct from what some part of me thinks he feels, which I then experience as though it were my own emotional response.

Example: this weekend, ex was acting weird, which is hardly new. He had been sending my lawyer letters about how terrible I am because he wanted unsupervised visits with Kid this weekend and I said no. He showed up unexpectedly at Kid's end-of-year sports gala, stayed long enough to lecture me semi-drunkenly on taking proper care of Kid's health, and then he left - didn't stay to watch Kid perform. He bailed out on having a supervised visit with Kid this weekend with no explanation so Kid didn't see him at all.

I could feel the anxiety and the worry building up - what's going on, why did he show up and then leave, has something bad happened that means he can't see Kid, has he fallen off a bridge, etc. But asking myself "Do these emotions belong to me?" actually helped. Anxiety, fear and anger are how ex gets through the world, and they are contagious. But they aren't mine. I don't have to feel his feelings (if they are indeed his feelings - I don't actually know how he really feels). I can say "those feelings don't arise from my authentic self" and in my mind, gently but firmly give them back to him.

I'm not sure if this all makes sense as I'm just thinking it through myself. But it feels like an aspect of codependency that I hadn't been aware of before - the tendency to take on another person's (imagined) emotions and embody them.

Soulful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIkirYVx0eE

Mamapajama

Thanks to both of you! The idea of observing not absorbing others emotions is very helpful! Oprah is great as always!

Bernadette

I haven't seen this mentioned in the codependency literature (maybe I just haven't read enough) but here's something that helped me a bit on this weekend:

Sasha1972I think you just added it to the literature!
Good stuff, and definitely ties into the video Soulful posted....if I can be mindful I can avoid feeling flooded by the intense negativity and anxious emotions that, as you pointed out, might not even belong to me. I can let them go, let them pass by, observed but not impacting me in a negative way.

Modern life doesn't seem set up to help us be mindful, it takes so much practice. But small steps and even short periods of meditation and deep breathing help me for sure.

Thanks for this!
peace,
B

BAW81

Sasha,
I really like your post today, thank you!

I've been struggling a lot lately when my STBXAH calls me names, tells me negative things about me, snaps at me, etc. In the moment, I take it and then I go home and cry A LOT.

He snapped at me for no reason this weekend and after I cried a lot, I started to think that maybe he acts out in these fits of anger/spite/rage because he can't properly process sadness. Thinking about this helped me to dry my eyes and have compassion for him rather than be angry.

I think your post is so interesting because it is a very similar concept, if not the same. I do not need to internalize HIS feelings about me. I know I am not a bad person. I need to get stronger at stopping myself and realizing that those thoughts are his to own and hold onto, they aren't mine and be MINDFUL of the difference.

Ariesagain

Oh, Sasha...my heart hurts for you and especially your daughter.

Is she okay?

ladyscribbler

This is something I've struggled with since childhood, where one person's mood used to impact the whole household. People "took on" the negativity or assumed responsibility for making things "ok" again.

That was how we survived as kids in that environment. There was a lot of "piling on" when one of us made a mistake, followed by efforts to fix and smooth over.

I still find myself struggling with this behavior, and I have to be really mindful of whether emotions are mine, or if I'm pulling them out of the atmosphere. What a great reminder as I prepare to spend the holidays with extended family!

Maudcat

I know.
For some reason, my addict sib, who usually isolates on the second floor of the house he shares with my mother, has moved downstairs to watch tv.
He just sits and drinks and watches old tv shows.
The upstairs tv was offlne, but I fixed it easily, and told him so, hoping he would
Go back upstairs.
He hasn’t.
This comes under the not my circus, not my monkeys umbrella, I know.
But he just infests the place, with the worst negative energy ever.
So lately I spend the bare minimum of time there, happy to escape.
Ach, so sad.

OpheliaKatz

Oh my god. Thank you so much! Sasha, Soulful. Thanks. Wow. I needed this today.

FireSprite

I'm confused. I feel like you're talking about different things in this thread, but calling them the same:

For example, this:

...is not the same to me as this example:

because this 2nd example is a reaction based on someone's real emotions/actions - not imagined or assumed.

In Sasha's share, she creates the emotions in her mind based on what she thinks/expects the other person must be feeling based on what she intellectually knows about their circumstances. Assumptions & Expectations all around. In Lady's example, she is reacting to reality - bad attitudes/ negative energy/ active examples of poor behavior actually taking place around her. (and, frankly, my most basic understanding of core codependency - allowing our feelings to be driven by someone else's attitude/actions/behaviors) Sort of like that old joke:

You're codependent for sure when you wake up in the morning and say to your mate: "Good morning, how am I?

It doesn't "feel" the same to me, psychologically speaking... one is a reaction to external conditions, the other is fabricated inside the mind without any validation that it even exists. Help me understand, lol!

hearthealth

I have been dealing with someone's mood which for me is emotional and verbal abuse. I have been catching myself each time asking, "Is this really my true character am I.... or is a false perception utterence by the person." This is how I really am.... I don't have to work even harder to prove to you something that I am not just because you say it was so.

BAW81

I just left court... we were there for 5 hours, waiting. While we were waiting my STBXAH and I were alone and started talking. His verbal diarrhea about how awful I am and how all of this is my fault started spewing. I just sat there and honestly remembered this thread as he was talking.

Everything he tried to tell me that I am, I thought "no, that is not me" and a couple of times I just said "I am very sorry you feel that way." I just reconfirmed in my mind that these are his thoughts and feelings, they are not mine and it really helped me survive the experience better than I have in the past.

It is SO hard hearing such awful things about yourself, especially from someone you once loved, but I was able to hold my head up high because of what I've been learning from all of you wonderful people. Thank you!

aliciagr

Thanks for your post Sasha and happy the therapist you work with is bringing in new things for you to explore.

I understand what you are saying but I don't know if its an issue of codependence but there can be broad views on that topic. Regardless, I feel that is part of developing a pattern of behavior based on past experiences, recalled memories: Conversations are always negative, depressing, I feel threatened by the tone of voice.

I think those feelings are legitimate and normal. And its a memory that sticks with me when anticipating future interactions. But I know its important to understand the difference between my life, and someone else's life. I can feel sad, depressed to a degree if its someone I care about, I can feel hurt by their words, but not take on their anger, depression, feelings of victimization.... and cling to it as my own.

Having that "emotional memory recall" impacted me when my husband was beginning to lose the negative behaviors and moods associated with using. I projected thoughts and feelings from those past interactions onto new situations and interactions, and in a way it caused me to put up a wall and not see the positive changes. I think this also can happen if I make assumptions such as All Addicts lie or All Addicts do this or that - yes there are symptoms and behaviors associated with the use of substances, but I had to look deeper and listen or I would immediately take on a defensive attitude.

In the beginning of my husbands using period, when things turned bad with his behaviors. It was the same "emotional memory recall" that made me downplay the behaviors. Why? Because they were not consistent with what I had known. His behavior was changing and he actually became dangerous, but it took me a while to realize this was becoming the new normal.

I know I went off course a little, but Ive found looking at my own emotions and thinking has been very helpful. That is why I found therapy to be so good. I was constantly challenged to look within and find my own answers as to why.

ScaryTime

wow! Yes, I do believe you are onto something. Thanks for sharing this...I am going to try this.

Sasha1972

I'm talking more about the fabricated-within-the-mind scenario. Here's what I think happens (at least with me):

Addicts have weak interpersonal boundaries. They don't know where their own feelings stop and other people's feelings start. They attribute their own feelings to other people (projection) and believe that they know what other people are thinking /feeling ("I know you're out to get me ..."). They are confused about what emotion belong to who.

With prolonged exposure to an addict (like a parent or a spouse), our own interpersonal boundaries get messed up too. We spend so much time dealing with their emotions, anticipating them and trying to change them, that we start feeling what (we think) the addict feels, as if we were catching an emotional infection from them - their feelings of fear, anger, anxiety and despair are contagious. It's like we're suffering from an excess of empathy, so that we tune in and take on the addict's feelings.

Even when we're no longer living with the addict, the pathways in our brain or mind or whatever (mirror neurons?) have been shaped or deformed by years of experience. In my case, I think that even though I left my ex years ago, I am still conditioned to pick up on what he's feeling, and then feel it myself. Of course I don't know what he's really feeling, because I am not inside his head and I am no longer subject to constant emotional overflow, so I imagine what I think he is feeling, based on my decades of experience, and that's the emotion that I take on and experience as though it were my own.

I imagine that he is angry, despairing, and very very anxious, because that's how he was when I was living with him and that's a pretty good representation of how many late-stage alcoholics feel, judging by AA literature and the postings on the alcoholics section of this board. Those are the emotions that arise in me whenever I have to deal with him.

I need to ask myself "Does this feeling [of fear, despair, anger, etc] arise from my authentic self, or am I unconsciously 'borrowing' it from the addict? Does this feeling belong to me?". Asking myself this helps me to talk myself down from an agitated state brought on by any dealings with the alcoholic and helps me to perceive the situation more realistically - and to perceive it as myself, not as a sort of emotional stand-in for the addict.

Does that make sense? It's kind of a long-winded explanation and possibly not entirely clear.