False jealousy
quat
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
False jealousy
Jealousy doesn't "feel" good. And the AV knows it. Wanting to drink and enjoy it without negative consequences as others do or seem to be able to do, creates feelings of unfairness and missing.
Being or feeling jealous can have some positive aspects , like motivation. If I were jealous of my neighbor's garden , it could motivate me to do the work of producing my own and then be able to enjoy the feeling of accomplishment and benefits of having a nice garden. Brooding about not having a garden and not doing anything to produce one , would leave me jealous and without a garden. The two gardens , my neighbor's and my possible garden , are things of the same kind and possible. One actual and one potential, both gardens though.
Jealousy of "normal" drinking , on the other hand, is not a chance for motivation and is only a net negative. The AV uses the emotion to try and trick you into considering a return to drinking as a way to alleviate the uncomfortable experience of the emotion. The best way to defeat this tactic is to recognize that it is a false experience. You aren't or can't be jealous of a false alternative. It isn't the case that drinking is controllable and a net positive for an addict , quite the opposite.
A better way to alleviate the discomfort of the jealousy, is to embrace the "feeling" and confront the AV' s ploy, let it know you realize that seemingly consequence less drinking is not in fact an alternative.
Drinking would, for me, lead me back to addiction, not having " that" no longer makes me jealous of me not having that. "Normal" drinking is so far gone, so not a conceivable outcome for me, that if my AV tries that tact , I can tell it to go pound sand.
I will not waste any emotional energy missing something I can't have.
Good try AV , but I'm onto your little tricks.
Being or feeling jealous can have some positive aspects , like motivation. If I were jealous of my neighbor's garden , it could motivate me to do the work of producing my own and then be able to enjoy the feeling of accomplishment and benefits of having a nice garden. Brooding about not having a garden and not doing anything to produce one , would leave me jealous and without a garden. The two gardens , my neighbor's and my possible garden , are things of the same kind and possible. One actual and one potential, both gardens though.
Jealousy of "normal" drinking , on the other hand, is not a chance for motivation and is only a net negative. The AV uses the emotion to try and trick you into considering a return to drinking as a way to alleviate the uncomfortable experience of the emotion. The best way to defeat this tactic is to recognize that it is a false experience. You aren't or can't be jealous of a false alternative. It isn't the case that drinking is controllable and a net positive for an addict , quite the opposite.
A better way to alleviate the discomfort of the jealousy, is to embrace the "feeling" and confront the AV' s ploy, let it know you realize that seemingly consequence less drinking is not in fact an alternative.
Drinking would, for me, lead me back to addiction, not having " that" no longer makes me jealous of me not having that. "Normal" drinking is so far gone, so not a conceivable outcome for me, that if my AV tries that tact , I can tell it to go pound sand.
I will not waste any emotional energy missing something I can't have.
Good try AV , but I'm onto your little tricks.
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
As I read your post I was reminded of this .........
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it was injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one.
pg xxvii Alcoholics Anonymous
Thanks for the thread
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it was injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one.
pg xxvii Alcoholics Anonymous
Thanks for the thread
...holds the key
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,065
Originally Posted by dwtbd 
You aren't or can't be jealous of a false alternative. It isn't the case that drinking is controllable and a net positive for an addict , quite the opposite.
I will not waste any emotional energy missing something I can't have.
Good try AV , but I'm onto your little tricks.
I will not waste any emotional energy missing something I can't have.
Good try AV , but I'm onto your little tricks.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 773
not to disagree, but the thought of drinking makes me feel ill, but I'm only sober a couple weeks, i guess there a lot of changes that happen over time, I know I've never succeeded in quitting alcohol, I still feel sorry for people that are getting hammered, like one of my best friends, oh well
Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by dwtbd
Jealousy doesn't "feel" good. And the AV knows it. Wanting to drink and enjoy it without negative consequences as others do or seem to be able to do, creates feelings of unfairness and missing.
Being or feeling jealous can have some positive aspects , like motivation. If I were jealous of my neighbor's garden , it could motivate me to do the work of producing my own and then be able to enjoy the feeling of accomplishment and benefits of having a nice garden. Brooding about not having a garden and not doing anything to produce one , would leave me jealous and without a garden. The two gardens , my neighbor's and my possible garden , are things of the same kind and possible. One actual and one potential, both gardens though.
Jealousy of "normal" drinking , on the other hand, is not a chance for motivation and is only a net negative. The AV uses the emotion to try and trick you into considering a return to drinking as a way to alleviate the uncomfortable experience of the emotion. The best way to defeat this tactic is to recognize that it is a false experience. You aren't or can't be jealous of a false alternative. It isn't the case that drinking is controllable and a net positive for an addict , quite the opposite.
A better way to alleviate the discomfort of the jealousy, is to embrace the "feeling" and confront the AV' s ploy, let it know you realize that seemingly consequence less drinking is not in fact an alternative.
Drinking would, for me, lead me back to addiction, not having " that" no longer makes me jealous of me not having that. "Normal" drinking is so far gone, so not a conceivable outcome for me, that if my AV tries that tact , I can tell it to go pound sand.
I will not waste any emotional energy missing something I can't have.
Good try AV , but I'm onto your little tricks.
Being or feeling jealous can have some positive aspects , like motivation. If I were jealous of my neighbor's garden , it could motivate me to do the work of producing my own and then be able to enjoy the feeling of accomplishment and benefits of having a nice garden. Brooding about not having a garden and not doing anything to produce one , would leave me jealous and without a garden. The two gardens , my neighbor's and my possible garden , are things of the same kind and possible. One actual and one potential, both gardens though.
Jealousy of "normal" drinking , on the other hand, is not a chance for motivation and is only a net negative. The AV uses the emotion to try and trick you into considering a return to drinking as a way to alleviate the uncomfortable experience of the emotion. The best way to defeat this tactic is to recognize that it is a false experience. You aren't or can't be jealous of a false alternative. It isn't the case that drinking is controllable and a net positive for an addict , quite the opposite.
A better way to alleviate the discomfort of the jealousy, is to embrace the "feeling" and confront the AV' s ploy, let it know you realize that seemingly consequence less drinking is not in fact an alternative.
Drinking would, for me, lead me back to addiction, not having " that" no longer makes me jealous of me not having that. "Normal" drinking is so far gone, so not a conceivable outcome for me, that if my AV tries that tact , I can tell it to go pound sand.
I will not waste any emotional energy missing something I can't have.
Good try AV , but I'm onto your little tricks.
What you're experiencing is envy, not Jealousy. Envy occurs when we lack a desired attribute enjoyed by another. Jealousy occurs when something we already possess (usually a special relationship) is threatened by a third person.
Envy is a two-person situation where as jealousy is a three-person situation. Envy is a reaction to lacking something. Jealousy is a reaction to the threat of losing something (usually someone).
Resentment for someone with talent or ability that one doesn't have is envy. Alcoholics lack the ability to drink moderately, non - acceptance of this is envy, therefore non acceptance of self (as is) is envy. Envy which is one of the Seven Capital Sins which the 12 Step model is based, has no redeeming qualities, it's a one way dead end path. 7 Capital Sins, Lust, Envy, Greed, Gluttony, Anger, Pride and Sloth.
Envy can lead to hate, resentment, pettiness and even murder. Individuals and / or Nations throughout history have coveted other individuals and / or nations natural resources and have committed murder and even genocide to acquire these resources.
Re: AV. "It wasn't me that acted out adversely, it wasn't my true self, it's was alcohol. It was my addictive voice, not my true my self.
Alcohol lowers inhibitions, but alcohol cannot change ones morals and ethics, it can only influence what exists or that which is potentially entertained.
There's no duality where there's 2 different voices representing 2 different people with different morals and ethics. This idea perpetuates the excuse, "it wasn't me, it was the alcohol / the alcoholic self (duality) or the alcoholic mind that's telling me to drink or make me drink", This is another form of dependency." There's no alcoholic mind, just human mind with mental and emotional issues that caused their addiction.
2 voices, 1 addictive and 1 non addictive this would be a person with separate morals and ethics, if this were the case, then all addicts would be or have the potential to be a serial killer like Jeffrey Dahmer who was an alcoholic.
"Addiction is simply a series of habitual behaviors which can be changed. Substance use boils down to a thought which is the conscious decision to drink and /or drug. There is no intergradation of gene of addiction or addictive voice (AV), like rehabilitation programs would like addicts to believe." Proponents of such programs, and of the disease model will be quick to disagree, with me, due to the financial benefits they receive. The money trail virtually uncovers the truth.
Dualism is an idea of separatism , especially since we now know that "psychological" addiction is physical in origin. It's the whole human being that's addicted not a separate entity or AV.
quat
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Icon
I agree with your editorial correction, I should have used the word envy. The post was a somewhat off the cuff reaction to a comment in another thread. My overall point was supposed to highlight the idea to step back from the feelings of envy toward "normal" drinkers and their reactions to alcohol.
I disagree that envy or jealousy are multi person situations. Emotional experiences reside in individuals .
Debate in the newcomers section , even within forum guidelines , on recovery methods is probably not helpful.
I think we would find more agreement than not, would an infinite expanse have a center?
I agree with your editorial correction, I should have used the word envy. The post was a somewhat off the cuff reaction to a comment in another thread. My overall point was supposed to highlight the idea to step back from the feelings of envy toward "normal" drinkers and their reactions to alcohol.
I disagree that envy or jealousy are multi person situations. Emotional experiences reside in individuals .
Debate in the newcomers section , even within forum guidelines , on recovery methods is probably not helpful.
I think we would find more agreement than not, would an infinite expanse have a center?
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,360
Oh crap! There is NOTHING good left in drinking for me. The last 2 years was total hell feeling like I had to keep doing it even though I didn't want to. The AV can't hold up under scrutiny. Great post.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by dwtbd
Icon
I agree with your editorial correction, I should have used the word envy. The post was a somewhat off the cuff reaction to a comment in another thread. My overall point was supposed to highlight the idea to step back from the feelings of envy toward "normal" drinkers and their reactions to alcohol.
I disagree that envy or jealousy are multi person situations. Emotional experiences reside in individuals .
Debate in the newcomers section , even within forum guidelines , on recovery methods is probably not helpful.
I think we would find more agreement than not, would an infinite expanse have a center?
I agree with your editorial correction, I should have used the word envy. The post was a somewhat off the cuff reaction to a comment in another thread. My overall point was supposed to highlight the idea to step back from the feelings of envy toward "normal" drinkers and their reactions to alcohol.
I disagree that envy or jealousy are multi person situations. Emotional experiences reside in individuals .
Debate in the newcomers section , even within forum guidelines , on recovery methods is probably not helpful.
I think we would find more agreement than not, would an infinite expanse have a center?
Re: your comment >>>Debate in the newcomers section , even within forum guidelines , on recovery methods is probably not helpful. <<<
Why would there be a probability that it wouldn’t be helpful?
At times over the years at AA meetings and on some boards, I’ve observed talking down to newcomers. I don’t approach newcomers as intellectually inferior. I view everyone as teachable unless they prove otherwise. If newcomers don’t understand particular concepts, they can ask for clarity. If they don’t agree with the truth I share, that’s their prerogative.
As a newcomer, I heard what I considered at the times to be very deep recovery concepts, later I was able to integrate these concepts as part of my recovery. I was so glad the seeds of recovery were inclusive rather than exclusive.
Years ago as a newcomer I certainly wasn’t intellectually inferior to anyone at AA meetings or in my one on one or group psychotherapy sessions. I was raised to question authority, especially the self –ordained; of course these types usually resist being questioned. So, as a newcomer to recovery I faced adversity at AA meetings early on from so-called old-timers due to challenging their knowledge on recovery. What I discovered was many of these so-called old-timers either didn’t read the AA text and parroted others that didn’t read it, or they didn’t comprehend what they read. I challenged some of what’s written in the AA text by pointing out mistakes. Many AA members object, as if the Big Book was divinely inspired. The fact is the Big Book tenets come from First Century Judeo Christianity and was essentially plagiarized by the co-founder of AA Bill Wilson.
BTW, I happened to know Jack Trimpey who wrote The Small Book and Rational Recovery. I’ve debated him in the media a few times over the years. I agree with many of his observations and concepts, but not AV / AVRT. Jack Trimpey began as a newcomer to recovery in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Unlike Jack Trimpey, I haven’t limited myself to one particular recovery philosophy and I’m open for change to my recovery beliefs, especially re: science.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 25,826
Great post!! 
When I finally stopped longing for what I couldn't have, a life of drinking without the consequence, and instead focused on the reality and he facts, things started to fall into place.
Trying to force a square peg into a round hole is futile, we instead need to focus on the here and now, and positively create a life from our own starting point not someone else's or a from a fairytale perspective of things!!
When I finally stopped longing for what I couldn't have, a life of drinking without the consequence, and instead focused on the reality and he facts, things started to fall into place.
Trying to force a square peg into a round hole is futile, we instead need to focus on the here and now, and positively create a life from our own starting point not someone else's or a from a fairytale perspective of things!!
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 343
To clarify:
This is from vocabulary.com:
Envy requires two parties, like you and that neighbor, when you want her new car and you wish you were the one riding around with the top down. You feel envy when you want something someone else has.
Jealousy requires three parties, like you, your neighbor, and your husband, when not only do you wish you had that cool car, but you're worried your husband is going to ride off into the sunset in it without you.
But moving along:
I sobered up in a different program with a different vocabulary, but I think the essence is the same: I remember hearing "your disease is talking to you," or "that's your alcoholism." I tried to swallow it, but it never felt authentic. I seemed that I was shirking my own responsibility to attribute the less-than-sober thoughts to something external. No, those were my thoughts; they were the manifestations of resentments and self-pity that were my excuses to drink. It stands to reason that I could not address them until I owned them.
This is from vocabulary.com:
Envy requires two parties, like you and that neighbor, when you want her new car and you wish you were the one riding around with the top down. You feel envy when you want something someone else has.
Jealousy requires three parties, like you, your neighbor, and your husband, when not only do you wish you had that cool car, but you're worried your husband is going to ride off into the sunset in it without you.
But moving along:
I sobered up in a different program with a different vocabulary, but I think the essence is the same: I remember hearing "your disease is talking to you," or "that's your alcoholism." I tried to swallow it, but it never felt authentic. I seemed that I was shirking my own responsibility to attribute the less-than-sober thoughts to something external. No, those were my thoughts; they were the manifestations of resentments and self-pity that were my excuses to drink. It stands to reason that I could not address them until I owned them.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
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Well Icono, I guess the "I know Jack Trimpey" line is designed to lend some street cred to your comments, but it fell flat for me. The RR method is completely about personal responsibility, there is no "the AV made me do it" component to the method. Not sure where you got that.
The idea of separating oneself from distractions/temptations/attachments is not a new idea by any means. People around of the world have been doing it in some form or another for thousands of years.
dwtbd, I do understand what you're saying in your post. I think that the type of longing you describe is most certainly not confined to addiction. So very often people in the world want what they cannot have, they decide certain things will make them happy and they want them, they want things to be different than they actually are...and they rail against the truth over and over and over. I was that way. It's a miserable way to live. The way out of the misery is just as you said...to let go of the grasping. To decide to not want it.
The idea of separating oneself from distractions/temptations/attachments is not a new idea by any means. People around of the world have been doing it in some form or another for thousands of years.
dwtbd, I do understand what you're saying in your post. I think that the type of longing you describe is most certainly not confined to addiction. So very often people in the world want what they cannot have, they decide certain things will make them happy and they want them, they want things to be different than they actually are...and they rail against the truth over and over and over. I was that way. It's a miserable way to live. The way out of the misery is just as you said...to let go of the grasping. To decide to not want it.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by soberlicious
Well Icono, I guess the "I know Jack Trimpey" line is designed to lend some street cred to your comments, but it fell flat for me. The RR method is completely about personal responsibility, there is no "the AV made me do it" component to the method. Not sure where you got that.
The idea of separating oneself from distractions/temptations/attachments is not a new idea by any means. People around of the world have been doing it in some form or another for thousands of years.
dwtbd, I do understand what you're saying in your post. I think that the type of longing you describe is most certainly not confined to addiction. So very often people in the world want what they cannot have, they decide certain things will make them happy and they want them, they want things to be different than they actually are...and they rail against the truth over and over and over. I was that way. It's a miserable way to live. The way out of the misery is just as you said...to let go of the grasping. To decide to not want it.
The idea of separating oneself from distractions/temptations/attachments is not a new idea by any means. People around of the world have been doing it in some form or another for thousands of years.
dwtbd, I do understand what you're saying in your post. I think that the type of longing you describe is most certainly not confined to addiction. So very often people in the world want what they cannot have, they decide certain things will make them happy and they want them, they want things to be different than they actually are...and they rail against the truth over and over and over. I was that way. It's a miserable way to live. The way out of the misery is just as you said...to let go of the grasping. To decide to not want it.
I know RR well and AV is a duality, which is a separation. I gave examples and could give more, that is, if you're open.
Myself and many I've known over the years didn't have an AV(duality). My addiction was a solo ME, a whole person with inner dialogue which was me. Those that believe they have an AV talk to it as a separate entity e.g. "go pond sand" this was posted recently. Many of the addicted didn't have and AV, until they read this bogus idea.
As I shared, Jack Trimpey was an AA member and most of what he published comes from AA ideas including AV which was around long before he was.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Well, way to miss my point icono...
and I did not fall flat, your name-dropping-as-an-attempt-to-gain-credibility fell flat.
If you have read the material, separating from the AV is simply a technique. No where does it say that the AV is literally a separate entity , but rather a part of you that you can separate your actions from. Of course, the inner dialogue comes from you, where else would it come from?!
So, yeah, anyway...the mods don't like debates in this forum, so feel free to PM me with all your wisdom about everything.
and I did not fall flat, your name-dropping-as-an-attempt-to-gain-credibility fell flat.
If you have read the material, separating from the AV is simply a technique. No where does it say that the AV is literally a separate entity , but rather a part of you that you can separate your actions from. Of course, the inner dialogue comes from you, where else would it come from?!
So, yeah, anyway...the mods don't like debates in this forum, so feel free to PM me with all your wisdom about everything.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by soberlicious
Well, way to miss my point icono...
and I did not fall flat, your name-dropping-as-an-attempt-to-gain-credibility fell flat.
If you have read the material, separating from the AV is simply a technique. No where does it say that the AV is literally a separate entity , but rather a part of you that you can separate your actions from. Of course, the inner dialogue comes from you, where else would it come from?!
So, yeah, anyway...the mods don't like debates in this forum, so feel free to PM me with all your wisdom about everything.
and I did not fall flat, your name-dropping-as-an-attempt-to-gain-credibility fell flat.
If you have read the material, separating from the AV is simply a technique. No where does it say that the AV is literally a separate entity , but rather a part of you that you can separate your actions from. Of course, the inner dialogue comes from you, where else would it come from?!
So, yeah, anyway...the mods don't like debates in this forum, so feel free to PM me with all your wisdom about everything.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
No, it's the first time I mentioned this. The other mention was from a different poster. Try to keep up.
The offer is always open for PM discussion.
The offer is always open for PM discussion.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by soberlicious
No, it's the first time I mentioned this. The other mention was from a different poster. Try to keep up.
The offer is always open for PM discussion.
The offer is always open for PM discussion.
Also, why do you boarder on casting aspersions i.e. comments re: wisdom and name dropping? This isn't healthy debate!
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