Verte

You guys are actually teaching me a lot! Both passionate and knowledgable. No waste of time. Content.

soberlicious

I addressed you because some of the information you have posted is factually incorrect, or at the very least, unverifiable.

Your anecdote of having been acquainted with Jack Trimpey holds exactly zero relevance to the current conversation.

It seems to me you missed the whole point of the original post.

lunar

Great post, dwtbd!
Jealousy, envy, whatever.
I understood your point.
Thanks.

Dee74

Lets get back to the OP topic here, thanks.

Dee
Moderator
SR

soberlicious

Exactly...and I even tweaked it a little more from something I "can't have" to something I "don't want". A small mental shift, but an important one for me. The idea that "I can't" seemed to create more struggle for me. The idea that I am shunning the act of drinking means that I'm not helpless or a sad victim. Every once in a while someone posts the hypothetical "If you could be guaranteed you could drink safely/normally, would you?" and my answer is no, I don't need alcohol in any amount, I don't want even a slight buzz because it takes me out of the now. Millions of people around the world choose to never drink alcohol for various reasons, so the idea of being a "normal drinker" is not something everyone aspires to. Not by a long shot.

dwtbd

soberlicious
Great tweak, maybe even italicize the "I" to reinforce the idea of the rational self
btw I miss your "I"

ArtFriend

Waste of my time, not waist. Just sayin'

Dee74

Please, for the last time, either contribute constructively to the topic - or send a PM.

I think we can do better than sniping at each other.

Dee
Moderator
SR

freshstart57

Soberlicious, the quote is for emphasis because these are two of my favorite observations. When we choose to go get what we can have if and only if we quit drinking, things get very clear and very simple very quickly. There is zero victimhood in this, and the niggling voice in the background that whines 'I wanna drink but I caaaaaaaaan't' is that AV, not me.

The 'drink like a normal person', is the other issue. Half the world does not consume alcohol. Ever. This is about 3,500,000,000 people. That's Billions, not millions. Consuming alcohol is not normal, and we can choose not to do it. Life is so much better this way.

Joe Nerv

One of the things I'm most thankful to SR for is how it's opened my mind to the ways that other people think. And recover.

I ran into a few instances in early sobriety where I was envious, even jealous of other's ability to drink and not pay the price that I had to pay - but for me, there was no way I was going to rationalize, or think my way out of that. Yet I believe that that works for other.

What worked for me was immersing myself in AA and the steps. It worked because I built up a support network of people who taught me slowly that I could have an awesome time without alcohol. An even better time than I did WITH alcohol. It started by going to diners (an impossibility when I was drinking, without drinking), then to a little section of local beach where AA/NA people gathered. We went on camping trips, bowling, sober clubs, dances, trips... did all kinds of things, and I learned I didn't need alcohol to enjoy myself. Within a couple of years I was able to branch out and do the same with "normal" people, and wound up not missing alcohol at all. No envy. No jealousy. Strangely too, my social circles started filling up with "normal" people who didn't need to drink in order to have a good time. Before sobriety I honestly believed EVERYONE drank. That's so not true. My wife has maybe 3 drinks a year, tops. Same with many of my non alcoholic friends (maybe 10-20 though ). I believe we start attracting different people once we remove ourselves from the alcoholic mindset, and the people that depend upon alcohol for their good times.

I know that RR/AA can be touchy stuff in these parts so I want to be certain I'm not being misunderstood. Not debating here. I had a therapist that worked with me for about 2 years with CBT and mindfulness. I read the book Mindfulness, plus a few others on the subject. While I'm sure it had some effect on me, the effect was minimal. It hurt my brain, as does this OP. Nothing wrong with it, it just makes me edgy because my brain isn't wired to think my way out of things like that. I know people though who's lives that type of work has completely turned around. I don't know Freshstart personally, but I have no doubt that his life has been completely transformed by a process that would have never worked for me. I have a friend (non alcoholic) who's life was turned around by 6 months therapy using CBT. That almost makes me envious .

I really don't believe there are any right and wrong ways any more. Just what works for us as individuals. I hope anyone who wants to get sober tries it all, and finds what works for them. The important thing to me is that we keep the drink down, keep growing, and find some peace, contentment, and happiness.

Ken33xx

I wasn`t sober very long before I could see that many people simply do not abuse alcohol.


There it is.

This business of my sobriety is better than your sobriety is a no-win situation.

Iconoclastic

Thank you for sharing that.

Whether you're a newcomer or not, your experience supports my views re: inclusiveness with recovery information. Everyone is equal, unless proved otherwise.

silentrun

This isn't a scientific journal. It's someone's experience.

soberlicious

JoeNerv, have I told you lately how much I respect you? Thank you for your great post. I was nodding my head reading because I too remember that shift in perspective when I realized that there is an entire world of people who don't use alcohol - either at all or not in an even remotely unhealthy way. It's kind of mind blowing at first LOL I do so much more now that I ever did when drinking. I talked about doing cool things back then, but in reality I was always too drunk to actually do anything cool.

Joe Nerv

Same from me to you .

I actually do things sober! Travel, perform, go to school and graduate, hold down jobs, help people, have healthy relationships, pay my bills... I could obviously go on and on. Didn't do a whole lot when I was drinking.

dwtbd

I've never met or debated Mr Trimpey, but I have visited his organization's website and read through their online crash course. I subsequently purchased the book Rational Recovery The New Cure for Substance Addiction and my understanding of AVRT is that the Beast or AV is a metaphor, that stands for any positive thought, feeling, urge, craving ect about alcohol use. The separation or duality you speak of misses the mark, it, for me at least, is more a segregation or compartmentalization. the technique allows you to look at specific thoughts or thought patterns, recognize them for what they are, thoughts of alcohol use and disregard them , not follow through by acting on them. You can't help the thoughts that emanante , but you can do something about possible subsequent actions related to those thoughts.
I feel it is perfectly rational to be able to, and decide to abstain from any future alcohol use , any thoughts that I may have that could/does shed doubt on my ability to hold to that rational decision are recognized as the AV, again only a metaphor for the recognition and compartmentalization of specific thoughts.
All of this starts and stops , has only one source , wholly resides in and around(?) the grey matter between my very own ears. I Dont Want To Be Drunk(dwtbd) anymore , ever, it costs too much.

soberlicious

I agree dwtbd. I see the technique as a way of boxing up those thoughts and looking at them in the light of day. So much of what many of us did while addicted is just insane. I know that using this technique allows many to get a foothold on these thoughts and actions that seem to have " a life of their own" and make some sense of it all with a specific single strategy designed to eliminate the behavior.

I also believe that this type of overriding the midbrain is used in many cultures, in many fields, and throughout time.

Iconoclastic

I believe you used it as a metaphor, but many don't.

As an example, to this day many in the AA fellowship believe that alcoholism involves an allergy, that alcoholics are allergic, where non-alcoholics aren't. This idea comes from the Alcoholics Anonymous textbook in "The Doctor's Opinion" (Silkwortrh, MD). It's scientifically incorrect, because there's no antigen.

Most don't read "The Doctor's Opinion" and of those that have, most don't comprehend that allergy was used at best as a metaphor.

Dee74

I've removed some posts.

Dee
Moderator
SR

Kuebiko

Thanks dwtbd