9111111

As an introduction to my question I want to make clear that I don't have children and am not an adult child of alcoholics/ substance users, but I came across some books for children when reading up on alcoholism.

The common narrative of these books seems to be " Mom/ dad is sick, needs to take care of themselves, but she /he LOVES you."

I am in no way saying that every person with a mental illness /substance problem is abusive towards their nearest and dearest (I have come accross lots of great people in recovery, and know that this would be very very far from the truth) yet I wonder if the message in these books can be helpful for kids that are emotionally, physically and mentally abused by their own parents?

For myself I know that the alcoholic/ addict/ dual diagnosis person in my life was sick, claimed to have my best interest in mind and took pleasure from trying to reenact and project their childhood hurt on me.

Reading in a book that " he/ she loves you" would either keep me in denial or would deny a huge part of my reality.

Stung

Well...I know that my husband does love our children and when he is SOBER it's shown and communicated loud and clear. His drinking also has nothing to do with them. Or me for that matter.

I personally think the message is a correct one. At least in my own situation. I can't speak for anyone else's situation but my own, but that would fit my family pretty well and it's the message I've been giving my toddler. Even though my AH has been very abusive towards me when he drinks he loves our children.

FireSprite

I haven't read the books personally, but I have to agree with the general theme as you summarized it.

In our family, RAH has always loved DD very, very deeply even when he was at his worst & incapable of showing it. It was important for her to be able to separate the emotion of love from his behaviors... it doesn't excuse the bad behavior, just helps her to understand things that are actually happening. Otherwise it's just confusing because the actions & words don't line up.

It helps her (again, speaking of my DD specifically) to have an understanding that you can have love for another even when you can't properly express it, for whatever reasons. And that just because someone loves you doesn't mean you have to tolerate their unaccepable behavior... and you can still love them back while holding your own boundaries.

lillamy

I think that's a very, very valid question.

I know that one time I said to one of my kids "Daddy loves you very much" she looked at me (she was about 10 at the time) and said "Well if that is true he sure has a funny way of showing it!"

It's a quandary for real damn sure. I mean, I'm court-ordered to not speak ill of my children's father. The guy who repeatedly threatened our lives. Before and after the divorce. And I haven't. I've stuck to "alcoholism is a disease and until he seeks help to get better, it's healthier for us to be separate from him." End of story.

But I sure as hell would not stick a book in their hands that says "oh and by the way, just because he threatened to kill you and went on to explain exactly how he would go about it doesn't mean he doesn't love you, child." I mean, that would mess with their minds and emotions even more.

ChelleB

I know that my husband's drinking is not because he doesn't love me or our DD. He drinks because he is an alcoholic. I have to remind myself of that regularly. It seems that in many cases, the idea that the alcoholic parent is sick but still loves the child is a valid and good one. That is not to say that it fits all situations. In yours, for example, it doesn't seem that it applied. I wonder if there are any books or literature geared toward children that do not center around that mentality. You make a very good point.

My husband is not an abusive alcoholic. I would describe the damage as neglect. He is not mean to me or DD but absent when he drinks, so in our situation, "daddy is sick, and that is why he is not able to go to the circus with us tonight, but he that does not mean he doesn't love you," is suitable.

lillamy

Thank you for this post -- it made me realize I have a lot more anger still going on than I thought... For myself, I've forgiven AXH. For what he did to the kids? Not so much.

hopeful4

lilamy...I can understand that. Wow...what an awful thing you have went through, I am so sorry.

I would love to take the high road and say I would forgive AH...but for the kids, most likely no. That would be a very heavy resentment to cart around, but one that would be very hard to push off.

I wish I had some words of wisdom, all I can offer is many hugs!!! (((lilamy)))

mattmathews

In a book I was reading recently, the topic was self-love. The author was talking about the addict/alcoholic who doesn't love themselves (self reported) but who loves their kids (self reported). The author's question was "Really?" Is it even possible for someone who can't love themselves to truly love others?

We all have work to do as we progress along our path through life, and becoming more loving is something all of us can work on (I know that's true for me).

Before my AW stopped drinking, I used to say "She's a wonderful person when she's not drinking." While I still think that's true to a large extent, I also now recognize that many of her less appealing traits (that were only revealed when she was drinking) were always lurking below the surface.
As someone who comes from an abusive childhood, and whose parents didn't drink at all...if someone told me that "even though they abuse you they still love you" I would have puked.
I don't know what the "right" think to tell kids is, I think like many things "it depends." But in my own life about the best thing I've come up with to explain (but not to excuse) my own childhood is "They were doing the best they could with the tools they had." I think that for me that recognizes that all of us are imperfect human beings, that all of us are capable of growth and change, and all of us are products of our own upbringing. It took 30 years of hindsight and some new-found compassion to get to that point though, so I'm not sure that's a big help to anyone, let alone kids.

soberhawk

It is an important message to get across to kids that they are not to blame – they can not influence their parents addiction or sickness.

I like lillamy's daughters comment: “Well if that is true he sure has a funny way of showing it!"

I find it wrong to tell children that people love them despite everything – I can not see that as an important message to get across.

AnvilheadII

i believe the point of "daddy is sick, etc etc, but he loves you" is an effort to prevent the child from thinking that it's THEIR fault, not to put blinders on. there are cases where perhaps that line of talk is NOT appropriate...if the father has been abusive towards the child perhaps.

my mom and dad split when i was about a year old. my mother never told me WHY they split up. she also did her best to prevent him from having any contact with me. because of her unshakable silence about the whole thing, i was left to my child's mind devices...well they seemed fine in the photos....then i came along and then he left. must be me. later i wondered if maybe he was mean or abusive or something. but i never KNEW....altho according to some sources, SHE was the one that prompted the split. mom was also a physician confirmed alcoholic by age 30.......

children do deserve the truth, but only at the level they can comprehend. silence can be deadly....at least to the psyche.

Stung

Matt - totally agree. I do think he loves our kids BUT I think he hates himself more or that he allows the negative to be more forefront in his mind than the positive. I don't think that he's thinking about having a drink when he's with our kids snd focusing on them, its when he allows himself to consumed by his own negativity that he heard the bottle calling his name.

Stung

Also, my view on this subject is very different than those with older children. One of my kids found her feet 2 months ago and the other one still takes naps. My toddler talks to AH on the phone during the week and they have happy exchanges. I've been successful in the last month at keeping him away from our kids unless its going to be a pleasant, sober exchange.

PippiLngstockng

This is a very pertinent question for me and your timing is excellent. Thank you.

If we learn to listen to actions and not words, what has xah expressed to our children?

- he says he misses them and flies here to visit. 3 days later he disappears. We find out through our sources that he's been doing his extreme sports with friends and hasn't bothered to tell the kids.

- he 'accidentally loses' DD13's beloved cat and 'forgets' to tell her

- he leaves injured DS16 alone most of the week with a sprained ankle while he goes out with the other kids

- he regularly sends no child support for weeks at a time, leaving us with no money for food

- he leaves the children hanging off a rope on a cliff and makes them stay up there while they cry and scream for help

- he tells the younger children to call the police on their brother and block the car so he can't escape

- he makes the children promises to pay for their lessons and six months later ignores their pleas that he pay before they have to quit mid year

- he lets DS16 get repeatedly in trouble with transport security by promising to pay for his bus pass but then 'forgetting' to pay

- he drives drunk with the children and their friends in the car

- he takes photos of DD13 lying on the ground after falling from a high tree and refuses to call an ambulance. I call and they take her to ER via helicopter

Etc

He loves that they provide him with narcissistic supply. On some level he enjoys them.

Is this what I teach my children love is? I don't think so.

FireSprite

Yeah, I am definitely coming from the perspective of not having dealt with the kinds of repeated & ongoing abuses many others experience, no issues with mental illness, narcissism, etc.. Just "plain vanilla" alcoholism. The kinds of things my DD has had to deal with are minimal compared to so many others - broken promises, missing important events, a lot of fighting at home, lying (to me, not her, she was just witness to it all), etc. When they spent time together his love for her was there & obvious, I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

Abuse in the way that Lillamy & Matt shared would definitely change my opinion on this topic because I agree with them that this kind of "justification" would seem to do more harm than good in those cases.

4MyBoys

I agree with reinforcing with you children that the absence of or bad actions are in no way their fault. I do not necessarily think it is my job to reinforce with them that their Daddy loves them. They should learn that love is shown through consistency and dependability of actions. That is his job not mine. They get it from me.

For instance, when my XAH did not call or show up for a visit about a week ago the kids waited about an hour then called him to see where he was. He told them he would not be able to make it something came up but they knew the important thing was he loved them. What? You don't even have the courtesy to call them but you have love for them. Whatever. How is not respecting someone else's feelings, love?

Like Lillamy, I have forgiven my X for how he treated me but I still have strong feelings for how he is currently treating the boys. They need to understand that actions and not words are more important in relationships or else they will end up with wives that treat them like their Dad because that is comfortable and familiar to them.

Wow, didn't know how angry I still feel about this until I started typing.

4MyBoys

theuncertainty

DS was 3 when we left his alcoholic and abusive father; he was 5-6 when AXH and I were going through the divorce. I was the one reading the books to him, both about alcoholism and about divorce. I made sure to address anything in the books that were obviously different from our situation and if it looked he was confused or concerned about a section or page, I'd ask him what he was thinking.

An example is with the "Was it the Chocolate Pudding?"; it's a great book about divorce that helps explain to kids that it's not their fault, that nothing they did caused the divorce between their parents. BUT in the book, the kids were living with their father and visiting with their mother, which is the complete opposite of our situation. Which led to discussions about what the arrangements might look like, what he could expect from me, etc.

Even with him at 9 yo now, I wouldn't dream of handing him a book about alcoholism or divorce, or abuse, or even religion, health, manners or .... without at least being available to help him read through and process the information, feelings, questions they're going bring up. Kids are new; they're just learning stuff, we can't expect them to just understand, especially when it's subjects we don't necessarily understand either.

FWIW, I believe that AXH loves DS. I also believe that he loved me, at least some of the time we were together. He has some very flawed coping and relationship skills and systems of belief about relationships... But I believe he was and is capable love. He has expressed anger quite easily, so there are some feelings there. He may not express how he feels, or may not express it a way I understand or like, but I can't deny that he has feelings. I will not presume to tell DS that AXH does or does not feel a certain way, because I don't know. When DS asks about if I think AXH misses him, I tell him that I don't know; I surely would. I let him know that his father may miss him and love him, he just may not deal with it in a healthy way.

Which leads to discussions about feelings and expressing them and how we treat people in our lives...

PippiLngstockng

I guess I can refer back to when I was a kid. By 3 years old I understood that my father did not generally like me and was angry that I took my mother's love and affection, which he wanted/needed for himself. It was like having an angry, jealous older brother.

My mother said my father loved me. He was proud that I had my talents/smarts. But he was very limited and often abusive verbally. He called me the same mean names all of my childhood.

I hated him on some level. He also was mean to my mother and made her cry lots.

I wanted him out of the house.

I didn't like when my mother tried to be reassuring and say that he loved me. I thought 'bs' and I thought there was something wrong with me for not being a good girl and believing my mother.

If she had only been more honest and said what he did to me was wrong.

I hope my children don't find themselves as confused as I was.

But they probably are!

hopeful4

I am in the same boat. I just read Pip's also...many of those are abuse.

I am so sorry to those who have went through such horror. There is NOTHING as scary as your child being put in harm's way.

fairlyuncertain

I just got online for a quick browse and this thread really got to me.

Some of the things I've been thinking about with my own kids:

I explain alcoholism as a disease that their dad is grappling with. That it distorts thinking, it can be very difficult, but that there is help out there, once he's willing to seek it, and like diabetes, no one else can take charge and manage it except him.

I DONT want them to define loving relationships as: with a good excuse, 'love' can look just like neglect, abuse, manipulation. I have two teens, and I don't want them seeking the kind of "love" that existed in our house!

I'm starting to see that in my own case, maybe the best thing I can do is cultivate other, truly loving relationships that my kids can see. Not just with a different man, but having a social life where they can see other, happy couples.

Alcoholics love their families, but steal, cheat, lie, abuse, endanger--not what we'd call love in the adult world. So why is it 'love' for kids?

This is a great thread and has given me a lot to think about, Thanks!!!

theuncertainty

All, I hope my post didn't come across as brushing off abusive behavior and how it impacts families. Because I don't. DS and I have both been in therapy to deal with it. I've worked hard to find friends and keep DS around people who do model appropriate behavior, empathy, and healthy relationship models. And I'm working hard to be a good role model as well.

The point I was trying to get at is I personally believe there's a distinction between the actual *feeling* of the emotion and the expression of it.

There are a few main modes of operating that AXH would employ when he was trying to assert his emotional control over me: 1. He would tell me that I felt a certain way; that my emotion was a certain one; when it was not. 2. He would ignore my feelings as if they didn't exist. or 3. He would act as if I had no right to feel *anything*.

It was wrong and hurtful and dismissive of AXH to do that to me. I'll not consciously do the same.

IMO: The inability to feel an emotion is one thing. The inability to express it in a healthy manner is another. I don't think I'm in the wrong for trying to point out that distinction to DS and show him what healthy means of interacting with and caring for people are.