A very helpful & enlightening PM
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 69
A very helpful & enlightening PM
Hi Friends,
So the other thread was closed due to complaints. I hope not to offend anyone else in this one lest the same thing happen again.
This, believe it or not, is a positive and grateful message. I received a private message which enlightened me from a member of the forum which I would like to share. I am not breaking anyones anonimity as the person shall remain nameless.
It was suggested to me on a PM that it was perhaps a little early to be doing step 4 & 5 as I hadnt taken step 2 & 3. I said " But I have taken step two and three and was deciding when and with whom to do step 4 & 5 with"
In actual fact, when I thought about this for a while, deep down I realised I hadnt taken steps 2 & 3 and therein lies the problem.
I suppose I have difficulty believing that God can cure this disease if we ask him but wont do the same for people with much worse diseases. Aids, Cancer, Heart disease to name a few.
It seems a bit selfish to think he can/will cure alcoholism but not the other serious/terminal diseases. What makes alcoholics so special to expect miracles based on the steps ?
That, I think, is the crux of the matter that I cant get my head around and maybe I never will.
Goodnight Irene.
So the other thread was closed due to complaints. I hope not to offend anyone else in this one lest the same thing happen again.
This, believe it or not, is a positive and grateful message. I received a private message which enlightened me from a member of the forum which I would like to share. I am not breaking anyones anonimity as the person shall remain nameless.
It was suggested to me on a PM that it was perhaps a little early to be doing step 4 & 5 as I hadnt taken step 2 & 3. I said " But I have taken step two and three and was deciding when and with whom to do step 4 & 5 with"
In actual fact, when I thought about this for a while, deep down I realised I hadnt taken steps 2 & 3 and therein lies the problem.
I suppose I have difficulty believing that God can cure this disease if we ask him but wont do the same for people with much worse diseases. Aids, Cancer, Heart disease to name a few.
It seems a bit selfish to think he can/will cure alcoholism but not the other serious/terminal diseases. What makes alcoholics so special to expect miracles based on the steps ?
That, I think, is the crux of the matter that I cant get my head around and maybe I never will.
Goodnight Irene.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
cool beans,sober. heres something to think about. this comes fromt he BB:
We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition.
The main object is to enable you to find a power greater than yourself which will solve your problem.
came to believe in a power greater than ourselves that could restore us to sanity.
we arent lookin for something to cure us.
i dont expect miracles. they just happen.
when i was diagnosed with cancer, God didnt cure it. He put the specialists in my life that know how to treat it. He has carried me and given me the strength, courage, and wiisdom to live with it.
We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition.
The main object is to enable you to find a power greater than yourself which will solve your problem.
came to believe in a power greater than ourselves that could restore us to sanity.
we arent lookin for something to cure us.
i dont expect miracles. they just happen.
when i was diagnosed with cancer, God didnt cure it. He put the specialists in my life that know how to treat it. He has carried me and given me the strength, courage, and wiisdom to live with it.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Posts: 367
I believe there is some statistically significant evidence that there is some effectiveness in faith healing (cancer, etc.)
Not saying that's your answer, but it helps a lot of people so don't discount it as an option. Really the evidence is in front of you that millions of men and women asked some sort of God for help and are not drinking. Just to play devil's advocate, why not give it a whirl? What do you stand to lose? I was told that if I ever said "God get me out of this one" when I saw blue lights I knew how to pray and could use that one. I will admit that I didn't get much releif from it, but I at least gave it a whirl. If nothing else it was something to do for half a minute other than thinking about drinking or feeling sorry for myself.
I have seen without exception people who worry about staying sober and doing the next right thing figure out a faith (or lack of it) that works for them. Plenty of athiests/agnostics/wiccans that I've met with long term sobriety, and plenty of people more pious and devout than I that can't seem to string together more than a couple months sober.... the common thread is the people who don't pick up the first drink stay sober.
Not saying that's your answer, but it helps a lot of people so don't discount it as an option. Really the evidence is in front of you that millions of men and women asked some sort of God for help and are not drinking. Just to play devil's advocate, why not give it a whirl? What do you stand to lose? I was told that if I ever said "God get me out of this one" when I saw blue lights I knew how to pray and could use that one. I will admit that I didn't get much releif from it, but I at least gave it a whirl. If nothing else it was something to do for half a minute other than thinking about drinking or feeling sorry for myself.
I have seen without exception people who worry about staying sober and doing the next right thing figure out a faith (or lack of it) that works for them. Plenty of athiests/agnostics/wiccans that I've met with long term sobriety, and plenty of people more pious and devout than I that can't seem to string together more than a couple months sober.... the common thread is the people who don't pick up the first drink stay sober.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: De
Posts: 1,333
I didn't believe in a god when I first did my 4th and 5th steps. I did accept that there was a power greater than myself, not necessarily a god in the religious sense. Doing the steps brought me to a better spiritual plain. AA nor God cure alcoholism. We get a daily repreve from drinking, and tools to deal with the emotional and spiritual illness.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
That is an awesome question.
I never saw my higher power as "curing" me... and step 2 doesn't say that, right? It says that He restores me to sanity... which is different, of course, than "cured". The use of the pronoun "He", does evoke a deity, I know, but that is just a way to refer to my higher power... but I digress.
What does "restore me to sanity" mean to you? It's not important to you what it means to me, though expressing my own experience may help you, it might not, but here goes!
It didn't mean that I was "cured" of anything. It meant that I would ask Him to help me lose the insane thinking that.... I could not be happy without pills and alcohol. Simple. It was what "I" needed to lose the obsession. And that I believed that He could help me with that.
In step 3... I simply set out letting Him.
Cured? IDK... It's not the way I think of it....
That's my experience...
I never saw my higher power as "curing" me... and step 2 doesn't say that, right? It says that He restores me to sanity... which is different, of course, than "cured". The use of the pronoun "He", does evoke a deity, I know, but that is just a way to refer to my higher power... but I digress.
What does "restore me to sanity" mean to you? It's not important to you what it means to me, though expressing my own experience may help you, it might not, but here goes!
It didn't mean that I was "cured" of anything. It meant that I would ask Him to help me lose the insane thinking that.... I could not be happy without pills and alcohol. Simple. It was what "I" needed to lose the obsession. And that I believed that He could help me with that.
In step 3... I simply set out letting Him.
Cured? IDK... It's not the way I think of it....
That's my experience...
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
(((((sobersanity)))))
I am glad and grateful that some one's PM helped you to see a bit more
clearly.
Please remember that Step 2 says:
Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore
us to sanity.
Does not say would says could.
Boy did I have a hard time with that one. First I had to get it through my
thick skull that 'insanity' was "repeating the same acts or actions expecting
different result." Okay then I could understand what 'sanity' was. So I
came to believe that if I continued to 'work' the steps and then live the
steps I 'might' be restored to sanity.
Of course, the more I went to AA, worked with my sponsor, started to get
some 'balance' in my life, I was being restored to some semblance of
sanity that has continued to this day, roflmao
For years while still drinking and then into recovery, there was one line that
kept going through my head from a Waylon Jennings song:
"I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane."
Now once I could actually say and MEAN what I said, that 'yep there is a
possibility here that I just might be restored to sanity', and I had rooms
and rooms full of people that I saw every day of the week, that sure
seemed (well most of them, lol) pretty sane to me, then I was ready for
Step 3, and Step 3 was not at all hard, after finally being firm in my belief
that "yep I could be restored to sanity."
Glad you are going back and working on Step 2. I also have a hunch that
once you get that mindset down, you will also be in a better place to 'choose'
a sponsor for yourself!
All of the above is just based on these many years living recovery instead of
'living' alcoholism.
Love and hugs,
I am glad and grateful that some one's PM helped you to see a bit more
clearly.
Please remember that Step 2 says:
Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore
us to sanity.
Does not say would says could.
Boy did I have a hard time with that one. First I had to get it through my
thick skull that 'insanity' was "repeating the same acts or actions expecting
different result." Okay then I could understand what 'sanity' was. So I
came to believe that if I continued to 'work' the steps and then live the
steps I 'might' be restored to sanity.
Of course, the more I went to AA, worked with my sponsor, started to get
some 'balance' in my life, I was being restored to some semblance of
sanity that has continued to this day, roflmao
For years while still drinking and then into recovery, there was one line that
kept going through my head from a Waylon Jennings song:
"I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane."
Now once I could actually say and MEAN what I said, that 'yep there is a
possibility here that I just might be restored to sanity', and I had rooms
and rooms full of people that I saw every day of the week, that sure
seemed (well most of them, lol) pretty sane to me, then I was ready for
Step 3, and Step 3 was not at all hard, after finally being firm in my belief
that "yep I could be restored to sanity."
Glad you are going back and working on Step 2. I also have a hunch that
once you get that mindset down, you will also be in a better place to 'choose'
a sponsor for yourself!
All of the above is just based on these many years living recovery instead of
'living' alcoholism.
Love and hugs,
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 449
G.O.D = Good Orderly Direction. I rarely followed directions. I am undisciplined - not in ALL areas of my life but in a few critical ones. Some of the most fascinating information about me is in the 4th Step in the 12 and 12. G.O.D has restored me to sanity with respect to alcohol, i.e. not picking up the first drink, whereas before I was powerless over THAT. My mind, always telling me "this time it won't hurt". G.O.D is helping in those other areas too. Like if I get diagnosed with something, I'll follow the Doctor's orders and not "my ideas".
As for the psychedelic cosmic entity, the "glue" that holds of this together ? What some call God ? I don't know. Prayer and meditation are fun though.
As for the psychedelic cosmic entity, the "glue" that holds of this together ? What some call God ? I don't know. Prayer and meditation are fun though.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,191
Remember the 3 pertinent ideas. Once you are convinced your ready to make your step 3 decision.
a) We were alcoholic and could not manage our lives
b) no human power could relieve our alcoholism
c) God could and would if He were sought
(note:sought not found)
Glad you found some clarity. Best wishes!
a) We were alcoholic and could not manage our lives
b) no human power could relieve our alcoholism
c) God could and would if He were sought
(note:sought not found)
Glad you found some clarity. Best wishes!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Sobersanity, I'd like to say thanks for your post.....so "thanks". You're not the first person to struggle with the steps, and certainly won't be the last. In reading your post, I got the feeling that you actually are looking for an answer to your question.
Thanks Laurie for stating what a lot of people kind of gloss over. When reading the Big Book, there are certain words which are capitalized and others in italix. Others are not so apparent such as in step #2, it says that we "came to believe THAT a power", not IN a power. I used to call my HP "Bubba" because I didn't want to say God. All these words mean something, and that's why in the very front of the book it says that the Big Book is the "basic text of Alcoholics Anonymous". Text being something we should study, not just read.
SS, hopefully this thread will go better than the others. I for one have never given up on someone who honestly wants answers. Have a great day.
Thanks Laurie for stating what a lot of people kind of gloss over. When reading the Big Book, there are certain words which are capitalized and others in italix. Others are not so apparent such as in step #2, it says that we "came to believe THAT a power", not IN a power. I used to call my HP "Bubba" because I didn't want to say God. All these words mean something, and that's why in the very front of the book it says that the Big Book is the "basic text of Alcoholics Anonymous". Text being something we should study, not just read.
SS, hopefully this thread will go better than the others. I for one have never given up on someone who honestly wants answers. Have a great day.
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,452
As I was reading, my thoughts went to the big book chapter To Wives.
It is my belief that God removes the problem.
We Agnostics talks about lack of power...power is God...God solves the problem.
It is a temporary fix? Can the problem be removed and I pick it back up? I think so, but I know nothing for sure!
"Perhaps your husband will make a fair start on the new basis, but just as things are going beautifully he dismays you be coming home drunk. If you are satisfied he really wants to get over drinking, you need not be alarmed. Though it is infinitely better that he have no relapse at all, as has been true with many of our men, it is by no means a bad thing in some cases. Your husband will see at once that he must redouble his spiritual activities if he expects to survive. You need not remind him of his spiritual deficiency—he will know of it. Cheer him up and ask him how you can be still more helpful.
The slightest sign of fear or intolerance may lessen your husband’s chance or recovery. In a weak moment he may take your dislike of his high-stepping friends as one of those insanely trivial excuses to drink.
We never, never try to arrange a man’s life so as to shield him from temptation. The slightest disposition on your part to guide his appointment or his affairs so he will not be tempted will be noticed. Make him feel absolutely free to come and go as he likes.
This is important. If he gets drunk, don’t blame yourself. God has either removed your husband’s liquor problem or He has not. If not, it had better be found out right away. Then you and your husband can get right down to fundamentals. If a repetition is to be prevented, place the problem, along with everything else, in God’s hands."
To Wives
It is my belief that God removes the problem.
We Agnostics talks about lack of power...power is God...God solves the problem.
It is a temporary fix? Can the problem be removed and I pick it back up? I think so, but I know nothing for sure!
"Perhaps your husband will make a fair start on the new basis, but just as things are going beautifully he dismays you be coming home drunk. If you are satisfied he really wants to get over drinking, you need not be alarmed. Though it is infinitely better that he have no relapse at all, as has been true with many of our men, it is by no means a bad thing in some cases. Your husband will see at once that he must redouble his spiritual activities if he expects to survive. You need not remind him of his spiritual deficiency—he will know of it. Cheer him up and ask him how you can be still more helpful.
The slightest sign of fear or intolerance may lessen your husband’s chance or recovery. In a weak moment he may take your dislike of his high-stepping friends as one of those insanely trivial excuses to drink.
We never, never try to arrange a man’s life so as to shield him from temptation. The slightest disposition on your part to guide his appointment or his affairs so he will not be tempted will be noticed. Make him feel absolutely free to come and go as he likes.
This is important. If he gets drunk, don’t blame yourself. God has either removed your husband’s liquor problem or He has not. If not, it had better be found out right away. Then you and your husband can get right down to fundamentals. If a repetition is to be prevented, place the problem, along with everything else, in God’s hands."
To Wives
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 2,548
I am recovered from a hope state of mind and body.
Contingent on my spiritual well being..
Recovered sometimes get read as "cured".....if i was cured, it would mean i could drink normally, ...that wasn't too successful either.
For me, spiritual well being was achieved through the steps..and 10, 11 and 12 become part of my daily life...
Look at it like this ?........if i have a heart transplant , i no longer have the diseased heart..im recovered.....BUT, if i don't take those drugs that stop my body rejecting the organ, i am done for .....does that make more sense.?
Contingent on my spiritual well being..
Recovered sometimes get read as "cured".....if i was cured, it would mean i could drink normally, ...that wasn't too successful either.
For me, spiritual well being was achieved through the steps..and 10, 11 and 12 become part of my daily life...
Look at it like this ?........if i have a heart transplant , i no longer have the diseased heart..im recovered.....BUT, if i don't take those drugs that stop my body rejecting the organ, i am done for .....does that make more sense.?
Fellow Traveler and Seeker
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,408
Great thread, sobersanity. I think that a deeper, clearer, singular question like yours is going to bear much more fruit than many, many disparate queries that is hard to pin down and examine. And so far, there have been some amazing responses.
Everyone has tackled the "cure" notion and the 2nd step approach. But I am curious as to your survivor's guilt-like take on why is it that alcoholics (drug addicts, etc) can recover from this whilst others with life-threatening and fatal illnesses don't have the luxury of a 12-step program.
I don't see it as selfish.
Being relieved of the mental obsession and aligning my will to His will and having a life that is joyous, happy and free allows me to work with others who are suffering. Of course I get to (not have to, but get to) work with other alcoholics and help them go through the steps so that they themselves connect to the juice of a HP. I get to help others in my day-to-day life - from volunteering at a school to helping the mom with her stroller to donating goods to a charity. Or something in a hospital to help those with fatal diseases. I do anything to help anyone, no matter how small it is. This is not selfishness. So through me, God helps others. I am a vessel for this, and for me to be of maximum service, I need to be well. And I get that through the steps.
That is how I see it and experience it.
Great post and thanks to whomever PM'd you.
It seems a bit selfish to think he can/will cure alcoholism but not the other serious/terminal diseases. What makes alcoholics so special to expect miracles based on the steps ?
That, I think, is the crux of the matter that I cant get my head around and maybe I never will.
That, I think, is the crux of the matter that I cant get my head around and maybe I never will.
I don't see it as selfish.
Being relieved of the mental obsession and aligning my will to His will and having a life that is joyous, happy and free allows me to work with others who are suffering. Of course I get to (not have to, but get to) work with other alcoholics and help them go through the steps so that they themselves connect to the juice of a HP. I get to help others in my day-to-day life - from volunteering at a school to helping the mom with her stroller to donating goods to a charity. Or something in a hospital to help those with fatal diseases. I do anything to help anyone, no matter how small it is. This is not selfishness. So through me, God helps others. I am a vessel for this, and for me to be of maximum service, I need to be well. And I get that through the steps.
That is how I see it and experience it.
Great post and thanks to whomever PM'd you.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,191
I believe I am recovered from alcoholism through God's Grace.
I used to wonder why I received God's grace and others did not. That seems unfair. Afterall God's grace is an undeserved gift. Supposedly free for everyone. So why do some have it and some dont?
Well, IMO, it is not necessarily free. I am reminded of Bill's story where he says something along the lines of "simple but not easy. A price had to be paid. It would mean the destruction of self-centeredness...."
So God's grace is free for the taking, but I have to do some work to be able to get it. Its not about God's unwillingness to give it to me, it is my inability to receive it. The 12 steps enable me to receive it. We alcoholics in AA are extremely fortunate to have a clear set of instructions which allow us to open ourselves to receive God's grace.
I used to wonder why I received God's grace and others did not. That seems unfair. Afterall God's grace is an undeserved gift. Supposedly free for everyone. So why do some have it and some dont?
Well, IMO, it is not necessarily free. I am reminded of Bill's story where he says something along the lines of "simple but not easy. A price had to be paid. It would mean the destruction of self-centeredness...."
So God's grace is free for the taking, but I have to do some work to be able to get it. Its not about God's unwillingness to give it to me, it is my inability to receive it. The 12 steps enable me to receive it. We alcoholics in AA are extremely fortunate to have a clear set of instructions which allow us to open ourselves to receive God's grace.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by sobersanity 
So the other thread was closed due to complaints. I hope not to offend anyone else in this one lest the same thing happen again.
I suppose I have difficulty believing that God can cure this disease if we ask him but wont do the same for people with much worse diseases. Aids, Cancer, Heart disease to name a few.
I suppose I have difficulty believing that God can cure this disease if we ask him but wont do the same for people with much worse diseases. Aids, Cancer, Heart disease to name a few.
At that point, some of us tried to defend AA and sponsorship in general with some "tough love" suggestions.
Why? Because "tough love" worked for some of us in our own early experience. Sure there are a few bad individuals in AA and even a few bad sponsors. However, why throw the baby out with the bathwater. Willingness to follow directions can overcome bad sponsorship in the long run.
As far as God "curing" this disease goes, no where does the BB call it a cure. It says there is a solution. There is a way out and that there is a daily reprieve. Whatever you call it, it works if you work it on a daily basis.
It is not a one-and-done experience.
Now I will share what my personal experience with step two has grown into as a result of getting results with the rest of the steps:
God does not need to be any kind of deity. In fact, Good-Orderly-Direction seems to work better than God for some people. Chuck Chamberlain likes to say "All of God's blessings were made available at the moment of creation".
The steps work simply because they are good Karma and Dharma. They invoke what Chuck called "blessings" in more or less the say way a charter or a covenant is invoked by certain actions. There is no judgement or favoritism involved. Anyone can tap into this power (aka blessing) simply by taking those certain actions at certain times. Like buying from a vending machine, you have to insert the right coins at the right time. You can't insert a nickle every other day and expect to get results.
A person does not need to be good or bad, smart or dumb, a believer or disbeliever. A person just needs to take the action that triggers the event.
Like throwing a light switch, the switch does not care about who does it.
Here is a passage from "A Course In Miracles" that match's my experience:
"Remember only this; you need not believe the ideas, you need not accept them, and you need not even welcome them. Some of this you may actually resist. None of this will matter, or decrease their efficacy. But do not allow yourself to make exceptions in applying the ideas the workbook contains, and whatever your reactions to the ideas may be, use them. Nothing more than that is required."
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
It seems a bit selfish to think he can/will cure alcoholism but not the other serious/terminal diseases. What makes alcoholics so special to expect miracles based on the steps ?
Possibly it is because this disease is rooted in something called a spiritual malady and is not a purely medical condition. Also, alcoholism isn't exclusive of all those other diseases, we can get them just like anybody else.
Possibly it is because this disease is rooted in something called a spiritual malady and is not a purely medical condition. Also, alcoholism isn't exclusive of all those other diseases, we can get them just like anybody else.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 1,003
If other illnesses could benefit from a complete psychic change such as what we experience with a spiritual awakening, then it would work the same.
I ponder just how many other illnesses that we don't realize are, in fact, similar.
I ponder just how many other illnesses that we don't realize are, in fact, similar.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by bbthumper
an undeserved gift......A price had to be paid.
Ummm. If I have to pay for something it isn't exactly a gift.
If that philosophy works for you run with it, but that's something that has never made sense to me.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by Boleo
A person does not need to be good or bad, smart or dumb, a believer or disbeliever. A person just needs to take the action that triggers the event.
Like throwing a light switch, the switch does not care about who does it.
Like throwing a light switch, the switch does not care about who does it.
I like that a lot :thumbsup
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,452
Originally Posted by Boleo
Perhaps your other threads were controversial because you started off complaining about your bad experience with one particular bad sponsor.
At that point, some of us tried to defend AA and sponsorship in general with some "tough love" suggestions.
Why? Because "tough love" worked for some of us in our own early experience. Sure there are a few bad individuals in AA and even a few bad sponsors. However, why throw the baby out with the bathwater. Willingness to follow directions can overcome bad sponsorship in the long run.
As far as God "curing" this disease goes, no where does the BB call it a cure. It says there is a solution. There is a way out and that there is a daily reprieve. Whatever you call it, it works if you work it on a daily basis.
It is not a one-and-done experience.
Now I will share what my personal experience with step two has grown into as a result of getting results with the rest of the steps:
God does not need to be any kind of deity. In fact, Good-Orderly-Direction seems to work better than God for some people. Chuck Chamberlain likes to say "All of God's blessings were made available at the moment of creation".
The steps work simply because they are good Karma and Dharma. They invoke what Chuck called "blessings" in more or less the say way a charter or a covenant is invoked by certain actions. There is no judgement or favoritism involved. Anyone can tap into this power (aka blessing) simply by taking those certain actions at certain times. Like buying from a vending machine, you have to insert the right coins at the right time. You can't insert a nickle every other day and expect to get results.
A person does not need to be good or bad, smart or dumb, a believer or disbeliever. A person just needs to take the action that triggers the event.
Like throwing a light switch, the switch does not care about who does it.
Here is a passage from "A Course In Miracles" that match's my experience:
"Remember only this; you need not believe the ideas, you need not accept them, and you need not even welcome them. Some of this you may actually resist. None of this will matter, or decrease their efficacy. But do not allow yourself to make exceptions in applying the ideas the workbook contains, and whatever your reactions to the ideas may be, use them. Nothing more than that is required."
At that point, some of us tried to defend AA and sponsorship in general with some "tough love" suggestions.
Why? Because "tough love" worked for some of us in our own early experience. Sure there are a few bad individuals in AA and even a few bad sponsors. However, why throw the baby out with the bathwater. Willingness to follow directions can overcome bad sponsorship in the long run.
As far as God "curing" this disease goes, no where does the BB call it a cure. It says there is a solution. There is a way out and that there is a daily reprieve. Whatever you call it, it works if you work it on a daily basis.
It is not a one-and-done experience.
Now I will share what my personal experience with step two has grown into as a result of getting results with the rest of the steps:
God does not need to be any kind of deity. In fact, Good-Orderly-Direction seems to work better than God for some people. Chuck Chamberlain likes to say "All of God's blessings were made available at the moment of creation".
The steps work simply because they are good Karma and Dharma. They invoke what Chuck called "blessings" in more or less the say way a charter or a covenant is invoked by certain actions. There is no judgement or favoritism involved. Anyone can tap into this power (aka blessing) simply by taking those certain actions at certain times. Like buying from a vending machine, you have to insert the right coins at the right time. You can't insert a nickle every other day and expect to get results.
A person does not need to be good or bad, smart or dumb, a believer or disbeliever. A person just needs to take the action that triggers the event.
Like throwing a light switch, the switch does not care about who does it.
Here is a passage from "A Course In Miracles" that match's my experience:
"Remember only this; you need not believe the ideas, you need not accept them, and you need not even welcome them. Some of this you may actually resist. None of this will matter, or decrease their efficacy. But do not allow yourself to make exceptions in applying the ideas the workbook contains, and whatever your reactions to the ideas may be, use them. Nothing more than that is required."
I thought about this first thing this morning as I was saying my morning prayers and upon awakening from our big book...this thread came to me...and I talked to God about it.
I am reeeally trying to understand it.
On one hand I am praying to God to remove my obsession, and remove the problem...
but then it's not Him?
It's up to my good deeds...the more good I do, the luckier I get?
This is just about good karma?
Sorry Boleo, I don't know what dharma is!
Then it seems like it would be about me being good so I can get...
I thought I was to be good for others...not for me...
If I believe I get by being good, is that selfish...my motives?
Then it is all about ME again...making the right actions to trigger the right events...if I can only manage well.
I dunno.
My mind/thoughts went straight to....if I be good...I can get.
Maybe that is not a bad thing...seems natural...go good, get good.
I just always have a problem doing good most of my life. Managing well.
All thoughout our book it talks of God removing the problem, it's removed...cured, would seem to me to mean removed. The problem doesn't exist...cured...fixed...done deal. no?
Recovered, cured, removed...all the same thing to me.
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