itsthepop

In need of more advice again.

My daughter has decided to go forward with the ROD procedure. I am comfortable with her decision, and proud of her because she really seemed to think it through and had a list of reasons why she wanted to do it. She is to be admitted tomorrow to the hospital.

A lot of her decisions are based on what her friend did when she had the ROD procedure. However from what I understand that girl started on a treatment of suboxone afterward. She was advised to take it for 6 months, but ended up stopping it within a months time.

My daughter has decided not to take suboxone at all. I have been reading about it and there are lots of pros and cons. I ultimately would prefer that she did not use it.

At the end of her ROD procedure, before she fully awakens, she is to be given a drug called naltrexone which is slowly released into the body. This drug is called an antagonist. ( It is completely different that suboxone or similiar drugs so we are told). This drug attaches to the opiate receptors and helps them heal and start to produce the bodys own naturally occurring endorphins. It prevents any narcotics (if they were to be ingested in any form) from being able to reach and stimulate the blocked receptors.
They say this drug can also be given once a month for continued follow up if she feels that she still needs it because of possible emotional cravings.

I was wondering if anyone has experience with the drug naltrexone ?

And I would also like to hear about experiences with suboxone?

I have heard much more negative with that drug than positive and I also know that it can be abused because some patients can get a high from it. That does not appear to happen with the use of naltrexone. It would however be possible for a person to take too many opiates while trying to get a high, and end up overdosing because the high never comes.

We have also been in deep discussion about the follow up care and only have a couple days to finalize this. She has picked a local therapist to work with; one that we interviewed last week. In addiction to that what she wants now is to go to a two week rehab that is actually called a retreat. It is out of state, and I have to again tomorrow call the insurance company and talk with them about what they will pay on a short stay.

I am worried about this being too short of a time period, and also that the rehab does not force patients to follow strict guidelines and rules. To me except for specific time dedicated to therapy and group sessions, it looks like a nice vacation. My husband thinks this would be fine for her, and would help her physically and mentally recover from all the stress and anxiety she has experienced. But I feel at this point forcing her to do something other would also be wrong, as it is her choice. Obviously again, no she cannot pay for whatever portion insurance wont pick up. My husband does not care about this; although Ive tried he is still in protection, and fix it mode for his little girl. If this does not work, and our situation turns out like some of yours, I really don’t think he will be able to handle it. This scares me the most.

Once again if you could be kind to share and hopefully ease my worries. Thank you. I appreciate all of your insight more than you could know. This has been an almost traumatizing experience trying to figure out the best course of action.

Gavinandnikki

I am so sorry you are in such pain, it is palpable in your post.

I think your daughter's primary concern is that this process be comfortable and easy. Let's relax and detox/rehab. I get the impression from what you say she says that she really doesn't want to be inconvenienced in any way - but expects you guys to do whatever she wants.

This bodes very poorly for her long term success in recovery. The statistics bear that out.

I feel very sorry for you. I think that tough love is going to be extremely hard for your family to get to.

Pam

Katiekate

As far as taking drugs to help her cope with staying off opiates, I peronally don't think in her case, her first time around, that I would do it. But as you said, it's her deal.

If it were my daughter, I would not provide her with all of these cushions, if you are paying the bills, than it is you who has the power as to where and when and how she will proceed. That being said, it seems that she is in the drivers seat. I do worry about the future. I think you are just going to have to wait and see, it does seem that you are caught in the middle and she has her dad to support her desires at this point. I only hope that she sees what a serious and future destoying issue this is.

It seems that a young woman who made all the decisions to get herself in this serious situation, is now being given the keys to the palace.

I do think that a 2 week retreat, will be just that for her. A vacation.

I'm sorry if this upsets you, it is beginning to feel like a what not to do with your addicted child thread.

Please keep us posted, we are here to give you all the support and time you need to vent and grow with us. love to you and yours Katie

Ilovemysonjj

Hello Pops, I would recommend not going the suboxone route unless she is in counseling that specializes in therapy along with the medication. Addicts can get high off suboxone AND they also can sell the pills so they can get their own drugs. I dont know anything about Naltrexone, but if she detoxes, the real battle will be psychological and Therapy and rehab would be the natural next step.
Good luck, we are all thinking of you and wish the best for your daughter.

dollydo

"It looks like a nice vacation. My husband thinks this would be fine for her, and would help her physically and mentally recover from all the stress and anxiety she has experienced.''

Yes, and that is all it will probably end up being...a little vacation. Your husband appears
to be a stumbling block, a big time enabler. His attitude will only hinder your daughters
recovery, not help it, she knows that she has him twisted around her little finger and she
will continue to manipulate him.

I hope that you both will go to meetings, until you both get healthy, nothing will change.
The sooner you get into recovery from enabling and codependency the more capable you will be to help your daughter, right now IMO you are just doing what she wants, recovery takes total dedication and sacrifice, something that none of you seem to understand.

Best of luck, I hope this turns out they way you want it to.

itsthepop

Dollydo
I don’t think that is exactly fair to say. We have been learning as much as possible in the amount of time we have had. We have seen many doctors and specialist, interviewed therapist, talked to insurance, rehab centers. Not everyone is saying the same things that some of you are telling us. Not all the doctors are making this out to be doomsday. We are doing our best to sift through and make quick decisions.

Katie
She really doesn’t want medication, but when they do the rapid detox they really recommend that drug and its part of their standard procedure. She is saying she wont want any more after that, but I know that could change.

PrayingMama

I have to agree that the attitude of the individual plays the most important role in recovery. But you are where you are. A two-week program is better than nothing.

I don't like suboxone--and neither did my son--and one of the biggest risks associated with it is the ability to sell it to get the DOC. It can also create another dependency that some addicts have found more difficult to kick than the original. But that's an individual choice, and what works well for one does not work for another. Again, a decision that is best made with the help of a professional.

As far as the once per month naltrexone, I assume you're referring to Vivitrol, given by injection. The positive is that, obviously, it can't be sold or traded for other drugs. Complications include increased sensitivity to opiates at normal doses as the time approaches for the next injection, and apparently the risk of overdose is exacerbated, too, if the person uses.

There are no quick or easy fixes for opiate dependency, and each decision should be weighed carefully. You can only do what you're prepared to do. But if you're asking for honest answers from parents who have dealt with drug dependence in their children--parents who have been exactly where you and your family are right now--the responses may be hard to hear.

If your daughter's friend has been successful in managing her opiate addiction, perhaps it would be encouraging for you to be in closer contact with her parents. What I would be concerned about is what happens when your daughter returns to school. Is the friend who is clean now returning, as well? Is the therapist your daughter has chosen going to be counseling her during the school year, or does distance make that impossible?

LoveMeNow

I am sorry your husband is NOT understanding the complete seriousness of this problem called ADDICTION!! Since he seems opposed to any 12 step help (Alanon or Naranon), perhaps you should make an appointment with an addiction therapist for just you and him.

You say he may not be able to "handle" it yet he still wants to enable her against ALL advice. Then how are you going to feel if things do not get better.....will you blame and resent him?

My husband took suboxone to help with HIS pill addiction. I was like your husband (complete denial) and thought - whew, problem solved!! Not even close. It has it's pros and cons....depending on the person. If a person truly wants off of drugs and wants recovery, they don't need anything but the desire and support from professionals and/or other recovery addicts. They must want it and being willing to put in the hard work. Suboxone is very addictive too and only works if the person takes it. Not a great plan for an addict who is really isn't wanting recovery.

My husband (a successful business man) is only 40 days clean, attends 2 meetings a day. (He used to laugh at suggestions of NA and now holds it in high esteem). He has a sponsor and working his steps. There are many, many well respected, successful men (and woman) who attend NA and/or AA. No one feels shame....they use each for support and help. Addiction does NOT discriminate....as you are finding out!!

My prayers are with you all.

Katiekate

Not all the doctors are making this out to be doomsday

Please just be aware that not all doctors are good at recovery, not all doctors have been addicts or are aware of the addictive mind. They know their drugs, but most of them don't take them. My doctor was my biggest enabler. He was also my drug dealer, he prescribed and continued to prescribe benzos to me, he was of no use to me when I decided to get off, in fact he was against it.

We are here, Katie

crazybabie

f this does not work, and our situation turns out like some of yours, I really don’t think he will be able to handle it. This scares me the most.

While she is there if possible can the two of you attend any meetings for family? I am not trying to be negative but recovery is a life long thing and it would be beneficial for both of you.

I will be keeping all of you in my prayers I wish your DD the best of luck.

amaslow

My daughter has been on suboxone numerous times. Once for about 7 months. Does that tell you anything? Based on my daughter's experiences, I think suboxone is great to take the edge off during the immediate detox period..5-10 days.. Long term, I am not so sure it is effective if the person is not seriously working a program, and if they are.. do they really need it? I have had physicians tell me that Suboxone is not mood altering.. but it seemed to change my daughter's mood at the prescribed levels.. She would usually take 1/2 of what was ordered.

I know you want your daughter's buy in on a treatment choice, but I don't think I would relly on the judgement of an active drug addict. It never worked for me.. Of course, she does have to sign in voluntarily, but most addicts take the easiest path, which is usually not the best.

In my experience, is you are not consulting with recovering professionals for advice, you are not getting the best advice...It really is a " takes one to know one" thing.

cangel2

You gave your daughter 10K$ and allowed her to decide how she wanted to spend it. She made her decision. Now let her decide how she wants to manage her recovery. Either you are allowing her to make decisions or not.

You and your husband might want to step back and decide how you are going to manage your relationship with her, your son and the new element of addiction in your family. That would be time and energy well spent.

I apologize for being so blunt but you are expending more energy on her detox and potential recovery options than she is.....that does not bode well for her success and certainly doesn't demonstrate that she is committed to anything.

I do hope that I am terribly wrong but I do not have a good feeling about your situation at all. I really wish that you would get some face to face support from people familiar specifically with addiction......Addiction Counselor, Family group at Rehab, Al-Anon, Nar-Anon, etc. What I mean by that is that You get some help for you....not for your daughter.

EnglishGarden

I'm not familiar with your situation, but will pass along an excerpt from the book "The Selfish Brain":

"....one problem with narcotic antagonists, such as naltrexone....is that drug users can get high on many different drugs, each acting on the pleasure centers of their brains through entirely different mechanisms. Antagonists that block one mechanism to get high do not block others. Addicts treated with opiate antagonists cannot get high on heroin (or any other opiates), and they cannot die from an opiate overdose, no matter how much heroin they take, as long as the antagonist stays in the synapses of their brains. But heroin addicts treated with opiate antagonists can--and all too frequently do--get high on alcohol, cocaine, and other drugs not blocked by the opiate antagonists.

....block one abused drug, and drug abusers and their suppliers..turn to another drug that is not blocked by the antagonist. The pleasure functions of the brain are too basic and vital to permit only one door into this control room. Addicted people have discovered many doors....block one door with a specific antagonist medicine and many others remain to be opened."

The book mentions that naltrexone is used most by physician opiate addicts who are required to take it to keep their licenses and have frequent required urine tests.

Your daughter is a drug addict and drug addicts want to get high. They will use anything to get high: tylenol PM, cough syrup, mouthwash, more exotic and lethal mood-altering substances easily obtained like bath salts, they will cop pills, booze, weed, X........ The high is always available everywhere, always there, within a few blocks of home, to a drug addict.

So how low is your daughter's bottom right now? How is her humility? How desperate is she to take direction from recovering addicts?

She has a very powerful addict mind and that addict mind--this very minute--is trying to find ways to keep using. Even with the choices she is making--especially that no-restrictions rehab--her addict mind is wondering right now how easy the drugs will be there. It is that addict mind which will not be cured by naltrexone.

I don't have any advice at all, as I have no experience of your kind of situation. All I can do is share some facts, and hope that helps in some way.

I hope you daughter gets well and stays well. I hope for you a release from feeling ultimately responsible for any direction her life and her recovery take.

havehope

I know you are trying to make many decisions about your daughter's treatment in a short period of time. I know it is a horrific thing to try to do. I also understand why you are giving her most of the control. My daughter was 19 when I found out about her addiction. I was afraid that since she was not a minor, that she would not go to any treatment if I forced her to go. So . . . she agreed and went to a 2 week in-house treatment program. The day she got out she used again. I thought she would be different, didn't really consider her an addict; she told me she could handle it. Why shouldn't I believe her? She was a national merit finalist, 5.2 GPA, scholarship to college. She then had weekly appointments with a counselor who 1) had been an alchoholic (20 years clean) and 2) had a son who was a recovering addict. The counselor knew all of the tricks.What I failed to understand at the begining of this journey was that my daughter was no different from any other addict. I also thought we would get over this little hurdle in her life, then life would be normal again. What I failed to realize is that her addiction problem is a lifetime problem. Not just for her, but for all who love her. I also have a younger daughter who got lost in the shuffle for a couple of years. My bad. I regret that now. She forgives me. You and your husband will need to go on with your lifes no matter how your daughter decides to address
HER addiction. My best wishes for you and your family. Please know that the things being said on this forum are out of love and concern for fellow parents being thrown into this ugly world of addiction. My prayers are with you.

incitingsilence

So lets bring in some obvious…it doesn’t matter if she uses sub, uses naltrexone, doesn’t use either … if she is done she will be done, if she isn’t then she won’t be and if taking one of these it will be come a game. She will divert, pretend to take, abuse…It must be this simple. The drugs themselves have no baring it is the user and what they make of them.

I hate the assignments of good and bad, all experiences teach lessons, well if the lessons aren’t being taken away.

I think you were leaving this to her to decide how to get it done, if so then let her.

Chino

Something is really fishy here or the message got scrambled somewhere.

The purpose of ROD is to remove opiates from the receptors and shut the receptors down so they aren't screaming. The purpose of naltrexone is to coat and protect the opiate receptors from opiates. So why would anyone prescribe suboxone - an opiate - after ROD? Suboxone and naltrexone would compete for the opiate receptors in the brain.

SundaysChild

The only experience I have with suboxone is that my son would buy it off the street when he couldn't get percs or vicodin. There's a pretty active "secondary market" for the stuff which implies that many who are prescribed it, sell it.

He is now on the Vivitrol shots, but it is too soon to draw any conclusions. He has spent 18 months cumulatively in rehabs and several years in outpatient therapy gaining the "tools" he has to draw on...and the Vivitrol/naltrexone is an adjunct to those tools.

Vivitrol prevents an addict from getting high from opiates, and it is also prescribed to reduce cravings for alcohol. There is also some research that supports a reduced craving for cocaine...but there are lots of substances out there that it doesn't affect-- so just taking naltrexone doesn't prevent an addict from using another drug.

I understand your desire to gather as much information as possible, hoping that you can help your daughter. There is no magic bullet and "right way" to fix this disease. If there were, addiction would not be the problem it is. There are also no short-cuts. She needs to want recovery more than whatever benefit drugs were providing her, and she needs to do the work to achieve it.

itsthepop

I feel that we have learned a lot in the last week, and I know that we all feel more comfortable about the decisions we have made so far. I realize many of you would hand it all over to your daughter, and tell her she of legal age, responsible for herself, and she can figure out how to get treatment for herself and how to pay for it. I completely agree with my husband on offering help to our daughter in terms of financial support, moral support, and as much assistance as she wants in figuring out everything that is involved with treatment for opiate addiction. It is very confusing. I feel that after we turned over the decision of the ROD procedure to her by giving her the money, she did a good job of examining why she wanted it. Part of it is to avoid the pain of withdrawl, but part of it is to eliminate all the drugs quickly, so she can focus on the next step. From everything we have heard it is a beneficial process. Even from people here that have personal experience with it, no one had any bad comments about it.

I am still not to the point of calling my daughter an addict.

The way it was described to us was that these drugs are very powerful, and they do alter the brain chemistry and cause people to have a physical addiction. There is apparently a plague of addiction to pain meds going on right now. However the doctors cannot say that she is emotionally addicted to this drug, and they have not said she has an addict brain and that is why this happened. Quite the contrary, they are saying seventy year olds who never had addiction problems are getting physically addicted.

Im not to the point of saying she definitely is not an addict, but at this point I wont classify her as such. Obviously there are reasons why she tried this drug in the first place, and why she did it repeatedly. That is why she needs therapy. Beyond that only time will tell.

This weekend has gone much better than expected, I was afraid she was going to panic like was suggested and maybe take more of the hydrocodone than normal, but she has seemed fine. She spent all weekend home, she has worked on the recovery options with us, she hung out by the pool with her brother, we all went to the local fireworks. We did ask her to dispose of whatever drugs she had in the house late tonight, and she showed us (supposedly) and then we got rid of all of it.

Of course, yes there could be more here. We realize that and plan to completely clean her room and the rest of the house while she is in the hospital. We told her this and she said it wasn’t necessary but it was fine.

We had a discussion with our son about all of this yesterday and it went much better than we expected. He asked intelligent questions, said that explained why she was acting weird. We will continue to talk to him as all this goes on. We explained everything that was going to be happening and he seems alright at the moment.

Based on the comments you gave about the suboxone I think she is making the right decision to avoid it.

Chino.
Your question on suboxone I don’t have all the answers on. My daughters friend had the ROD procedure and then my daughter said she went on suboxone. I don’t know if she started it immediately after the procedure or weeks. I did confirm with her parents she took suboxone however but she went off it within a month. More than that I do not know. My daughters doctors never offered it to her, as they use the naltrexone. The injection will only last a month however, so at that point she has the option of another shot, or no. I think she could use suboxone at that point if she decided. But it really does not sound comparable to the naltrexone from what ive read.

I do know that you have to be completely free of opiate to take naltrexone. So your comment makes me wonder was her friend free of opitates when she went on suboxone? That is worrisome since she said her friend was fine after she got back from easter break and had the ROD. ???

Someone asked about her therapist. No, if she is able to go back to school by September, then she will need to find another therapist close to her college. That will be critical that she has the support while back in school. We haven’t got that far in our process.

Her friend is no longer a close friend. She will not be moving back to the location where her friend is going to be living. She had lots of friends that she says do not use drugs, and she says she will stick with them and be fine. That is what she is saying now of course.

I appreciate all of your advice. I will update you after the procedure. Im nervous toinight, but feel a relief because we are actually doing something starting tomorrow.

Chino

The only reason for her to use subs is if she relapses and becomes addicted again. It prevents withdrawal symptoms. She will not have physical withdrawals after ROD unless she relapses.

Windmills

The elderly patients you're describing are prescribed pain meds by real doctors for real pain. Continued use, as prescribed, creates a physical dependency- which is different to addiction.
Unless your daughter was prescribed medication by a real doctor for real pain and took it exactly as prescribed, and exhibited no drug seeking behaviour, she is a totally different case. As she wasn't prescribed it and bought it on the street..
I hope the ROD goes well.