transformyself

One of my friends is a devout Christian. She was in a meeting with myhself and four other women and started talking about her husband. After just a few sentences, I saw red flags everywhere and told her to check his cell phone and email for an affair.

She already had, he's already doing it but she says she has "no proof," and that it's really her fault for not paying enough attention to him.

She works two jobs and pays all the bills as he is on disability.

Needless to say the other women in the group said she needs to kick him out, but she says, "I forgive him because I"m a good Christian and I married for life."

It's driving me crazy. I have to see this man at functions and I know I"m going to tell him what a piece of **** I think he is. He should be kissing her ass every single day and begging her to not leave him. The guy is a total douche.

I know I have no control over this, there is nothing I can say to her, but can any Christians help me out with this? She is supposed to forgive his abuse and ongoing affairs and blameshifting? How does that makes sense??

choublak

"I forgive him because I married for life."

I do believe my mom bought into this for most of her life. She's Catholic and married in the Catholic church (although not to another Catholic, so my dad had to sign some papers giving his consent that their children be raised Catholic), I think the religious influence hindered her ability to recognize emotional abuse for what it was. I also think that for a long time, divorce, in her eyes, was like a criminal offense, or something.

Tuffgirl

We all choose our own boundaries. Apparently, this is hers. I am just curious as to why she would talk about it if she has already decided she is staying in the marriage regardless? Kind of a set up for herself, ya know?!

changeschoices

Denial...it's not just for alcoholics!

The Bible does say things like "turn the other cheek" and all that, but the overriding message that I get from the Bible is that we were made in G-d's image and our life's work is to try to be like him. I interpret that as respecting myself the same way I respect G-d. The Bible makes it very clear that we should live moral lives AND not associate with people who do bad things.

transformyself

TuffGirl: As usual, I was a catalyst for a giant melt down. I am the new one in this group and all of these women are friends and work together, but none of them had heard any of this from her before.

I started asking questions and she unloaded on us. She said she's been "In therapy," for the verbal and physical abuse that happened "early," in their marriage.

I think she's totally screwed. If she actually believes this crap her religion is feeding her, she has to stay with this douchebag. I wish it had been this easy for me-you just tell the priest to bite you and get divorced. But NO...I stayed for mysterious ****** up reasons unbeknowst to even me!!

PrettyViolets

Christians can either be forgiving or they can set a boundary and not want to be in a marriage with someone who is not faithful. We all know that Hillary Clinton is an example of a forgiving wife--and this worked in her favor due to her political career. On the other hand, I would think most Christian wives would not put up with it. A good church would not approve of infidelity. And it would be an embarassment to the family. I actually had a Christian friend whose Christian father was not faithful. Her parents got divorced. Her mother got remarried, and her father just decided not to go through marriage again. She had a lot of anger issues at her father, and I know that the church was trying to have her forgive her father. I just felt that this really affected her ability to have a healthy relationship herself with guys because she did not have the best examples from her own parents--and they were Christians--you are supposed to be at best when you are a Christian. But the truth is that even Christians are not perfect.

DesertEyes

Hello transformeeee

You know, there really is a _lot_ you can do for her, but it's not about _saying_. For example:

is the wrong thing to say. Just browse around this forum and look what happens every single time somebody gives the advice "Kick him out". The receiving person has a reflex reaction and just does the opposite.

It says right in the al-anon literature; we do _not_ give advice. The best way, and in many cases, the _only_ way to help somebody out of that kind of mess is to be quiet and lead by example. Like so many of the folks here on SR. They share about their life and how they got out of their own hardships and that inspires others to do what they did.

I am Catholic, and we are about the most extreme when it comes to that whole "death do us part" and "for better or for worse". My own personal experience with being Catholic and this whole issue of staying in a bad marriage is that being Catholic has _nothing_ to do with it.

People stay in a bad marriage for many different reasons, but none of them are logical. It is very difficult to actually walk away from a marriage, that is why there is al-anon and CODA and TV shows and books and therapists and hundreds of websites like SR.

Don't bother with making sense, you will just waste your time. We stay because of _emotions_, not sense. If you try to talk to her and make sense it will make no difference because sense is not the problem. Look around here on SR, we all stayed because of _emotions_.

My story is practically the same as everybody elses. I stayed until I saw enough examples in meetings, and on SR, that I could understand how my emotions were a tangle. Only then did I begin the whole process of leaving, which can be very difficult when there kids or financial issues. The more examples I saw, and the more I worked on my own emotions, the easier it got. Kind of like a snowball getting bigger and bigger.

If you want to help somebody else, don't give advice. Just share your own life and be an example of how a person can build self-worth, build confidence, take care of their own needs and make a good life for themselves. You already do that right here on SR, just do the same thing at that meeting you mentioned and little by little she will see that if you can do it, she can do it too.

Mike
Moderator, SR

fedup3

I'm a Christian and I think that's one of the reasons I stayed married to him for 39 yrs. When I did divorce him a year ago I knew I would never remarry anyone until the death of my exah (until death due us part) but now being single it is so freeing and wonderful the thought of ever marrying again just leaves me cold!

MsPINKAcres

Let me share my personal experience ~

I was very involved in a traditional Christian religion during my marriage to my NOW ex AH ~ about 8 yrs into this trainwreck of a marriage (and several years before Al-Anon) ~ I sough council from a trusted Pastor who knew about my ah's drug problems, at that time & even now I'm not 100% sure my ah was unfaithful, but I'm pretty sure he was ~ but this Pastor knew about the stress, strain, emotional abuse, etc ~

I went to him seeking advise ~ I wanted to leave ~ he's exact words were "has he hit you? do you know for sure he has been unfaithful? If not, then you do not have a biblical reason to leave?"

I was devasted ~ I truly felt stuck.

What I know NOW is that although that Pastor may have had good intentions ~ he was miss informed ~ He didn't know the God of my understand that I discovered after coming to Al-Anon ~ He is still a "Christian" God of the traditional Bible ~ but He would never want me to be verbally, emotionally or spiritually abused as I was being in my marriage ~ God did not want that for the Hebrews under Egyptian Rule and He does not want that for His Children (not trying to be too scriptural but just giving references for those who need references for reassurance)

I don't blame my former Pastor any more ~ I just know that he was not the right source for me to go to for information ~ he didn't have enough knowledge about my situation. Just like many pastors don't truly understand ALL that goes on in an alcoholic/addict home ~

When newcomers talk to me about their conflicts, I usually ask them how much actually knowledge does their spiritual counselor have about alcoholism/addiction ~ not just from "reading a book" but from real life experience ~

I pray your friend keeps coming to meetings, that members continue to love her, give her support and allow HER HP to guide her and reach her ~ Prayerfully she will see a path to a brighter, healthier future for herself ~ SHE deserves it and I truly believe the God of HER understanding wants it for her too!

PINK HUGS!
Rita

fedup3

One of the best things I did was find a good Christian therapist who I think if I ever said that I might see my exah would probably tackle me to the floor before letting me do it. She loves the Lord and she keeps telling me that God does not condone abuse either physically, emotionally or mentally.

lizatola

Can I make a suggestion for a book for your friend to read? It's a book written by a Christian pastor and is more directed at women who have been verbally or physically abused but I think your friend may gain some insight about what the Bible says about abuse and maybe provide some perspective for her. It's called, "Angry Men and the Women Who Love them: Breaking the Cycle of Physical and Emotional Abuse", by Paul Hegstrom.

I read it recently and found it very insightful. There really is no making sense of it all. I have put up with verbal abuse and manipulations for 17 years now and I still think I have a handle on it. Crazy, I know!

SoloMio

I think Christianity is about finding the "spark within." It's hard enough for us to individually fan that spark, but too often it's extinguished by people who claim to love us.

Even Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me."

So, the way I interpret that is, my divine spark is more important than any relationship or any marriage on paper. Don't mess with it.

As a Christian, that's what I believe, anyway. But there are a lot that see it as your friend does. My mother was Roman Catholic in the 50s/60s when divorce was death to not only the church but to social standing as well. But she did it--she divorced my father, and I'm sure glad she was able to see through the dogmatic cr*p and do what she needed to do.

wicked

Although I think it is much less of a problem now, when I was growing up, (Roman Catholic) divorce for any reason was seen as a failure of faith. This is what I was taught.
And it is not just about the marriage, you were excommunicated from the church.
So, your entire social support no longer speaks to you and avoids you when seen.
What I was taught as a child terrified me. Going to purgatory for telling a white lie?
I was destined to become a resident of hell by the time I became a teenager.
I know many things have changed in the church, now that the secrets are coming out, but getting that fear of lonely misery when you get away from a bad marriage stays with a person. It does for me. Just as being a child of an alcoholic has formed me, so did my first twelve years of life in the Catholic church.
I was born "bad" and was not doing a good job of making up for it.
You know the saying,
Religion is for those who want to avoid hell, spirituality is for those who have been there.

Unless and until the woman gets away from the "Christianity" that she believes says it is her fault that her marriage is failing, and is taught she can only control herself, that is where she will stay. It is sad and painful to contemplate transform, and I know your warrior heart says to help her, but like an addict, unless she is ready, she will not hear.

Keep up the good fight Lakota woman. :ghug3
I am glad I know you.

Beth

wicked

Mike, are you married?
:ghug3
Thank you for being here.

SoloMio

No, I didn't know that saying--Love it!

Seren

I am a devout, practicing Roman Catholic, and find that this thread is filled with a lot of misinformation. It makes me very sad. The church HAS NEVER taught that you had to stay with a husband or wife who is abusive, and Catholics were never excommunicated for getting divorced. Excommunication is an extraordinarily rare action used under the most extreme circumstances.

If, however, you get remarried outside the church without having the original marriage annulled, you will not be able to receive communion until you do. In the case of abuse and serial infidelity, it is my experience that an annulment would be granted since the church would not consider it to be a 'valid marriage' to begin with.

I'm sorry for this woman and hope that things will improve for her very soon. Sadly, however, just as we cannot control the alcoholics in our lives, we cannot control our fellow codies.

SoloMio

hydrogirl,

Yes, I probably misspoke because I know that you don't get excommunicated for being divorced. But you for getting remarried--which is what my mother did. She had no money for an annulment. She was just happy to have a good man ten years her junior (he was 28) willing to take on her and her four children (ranging from 7 to 17)

Again, these days, things are probably a lot different than they were in the 50s/60s, when the "moral" thing to do was to stay together. Of course women had to stay married because they had few financial resources. My mother divorced my father even though she had no money and no resources, and she wound up remarrying to uphold a standard of living for herself and her kids.

Also, I am a Catholic girl at heart (12 years of Catholic school and aspirations to be a nun at one time) and I have great affinity for the Catholic church. But I still feel that there's too much dogma/paperwork/rules etc. to make things easy for the Christian in crisis.

transformyself

So true Hydrogirl
FYI she's not Catholic, but Christian. I'm not sure what the difference is, thought they were teh same things

wicked

Oh hydrogirl,

I should have prefaced my post with the fact this was my experience only.
Any ideas I got were from the catechism and Masses I attended, with added stuff my father used to scare us.
I am sorry I was not clear on that.
My experience was not of a loving God who forgave me everytime I sinned, it was a judgmental man who was counting the mistakes of an 8 year old to punish her.

I want to add now, when I was in rehab in the beautiful Landstuhl Germany. It was a priest who brought me to tears about my sins. Of course, I had not been to confession for many years, I asked if could ever be forgiven and he said,
"My child, you already have." I burst into tears and I am crying again now with relief.

My experience was that of a scared child who had an alcoholic abusive father.
It was not of an adult who could sort man's word from God's.
I have seen the cathedrals in Europe, and this is one way I could see how the love of God could bring out the majesty in us all.
I am deeply sorry if I have offended you in any way hydrogirl.
I have great respect for you.

Beth

wicked

Well all Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholics.
All clear?
There are Lutherans, Protestants, Methodists, Quakers?
I am sure there are many others.