SoloMio

I think Catholics and Evangelical Christians feel there is a big gulf between them. Evangelical Christians are very driven by interpretation of Scripture, while Catholics take their direction from more of a mystical theology and, of course, the dictates of the Pope and the catechism of the Catholic church..

But they both are very conservative when it comes to "family values."

choublak

I think when my mom was growing up there was a lot more social pressure to marry and reproduce. I remember one time I asked my mom why she felt that, at age 24, it was "time" for her to get married. She said something like, "because, back then, everyone was getting married, and if you stayed single into your late twenties, you were seen as a spinster, as having something wrong with you".

choublak

While divorce didn't get you excommunicated from the church, if you were divorced, the community, which often included a church, did look down on you as "immoral" or something. By community I mean Catholic neighborhoods like the one my mom grew up in, I don't think they're quite as common as they were back in my mom's day, but anyway the neighborhoods would have a Catholic church, which everyone walked to, and which usually had an adjoining school. The men all worked and the women all stayed home with the kids, families would only have one car, which the husband drove to work. If a woman got divorced, she would lose her sense of "belonging" in the community, not to mention be the subject of circulating gossip. And my mom was a people-pleaser.

akrasia

This has nothing to do with Christianity. She's just doing the Passive Aggressive Church Lady crap.

If she'd really forgiven him she wouldn't make a point of bringing it up in a crowd of people. She knew how you'd react. She wanted a chance to wave her "I'm-better-than-you" flag.

Perhaps that's how she compensates for the pain of living with a douche. She sounds like a douche herself though, frankly.

djayr

I am an evangelical Christian, and I think that YES, for the most part, it makes a person want to stay in the marriage because of bible teachings such as: 1) God hates divorce; 2) we are supposed to forgive people because we have been forgiven; and 3) virtues like patience, mercy, and longsuffering are good qualities. So probably, this means you stay a little longer, pray a little more . . . and that's about it! I guess in the end, each person can do what they want, even if it drives their friends, family, Al-Anon group, and everyone else in their life nuts.

TakingCharge999

In my country the Catholic Church has done a great disservice to women in general. The idea is that God sent you the man next to you and you have to accept anything and shut up. Just another control technique to keep half the population dormant, barefoot and pregnant...

Not our job to judge anyone transformy...

Hugs!

Ursula745

Well, to me, forgiveness doesn't have anything to do to continuing to put up with it. You can leave and still forgive. Second, doesn't the Bible have a scripture somewhere that talks about infidelity being grounds for divorce? Maybe I am mistaken. Thirdly, you can't change the fact that he's a douche or her decision about it. She knows. It's her life. Let her figure it out and just be there to listen and offer support. It's not your job to change her mind.

DesertEyes

Easy does it people, this forum is to talk about recovery, not about religion. Any religion. Making sweeping generalization about an entire religion and _all_ the people that follow it is offensive, rude and just plain prejudicial.

If you want to complain about religion, do it somewhere else.

Mike
Moderator, SR

miamifella

This woman seems is using Christianity as an excuse. In any Christian religion, she can get a civil divorce. It may not be recognized by her church, which means she could not remarry. But she does not have to stay in the same house as her husband.

And if she is Catholic, his adultery would be grounds to annul the marriage.

She wants to stay in this marriage, pure and simple.

PeacefulMe

I am currently attending a divorce support group that uses a program called DivorceCare. This program is published by a nondenominational ministry and is based on Christian values and is heavily Biblical based. I have a Presbyterian background and currently belong to Methodist church. We had one session entitled "What Does the Owner's Manual Say?" which dealt primarily with biblical based teachings about divorce. I didn't agree with everything but did take away a couple of concepts. Strictly Bible based there are two acceptable reasons for divorce and one is for marital infidelity reference Matthew 5:32. The second acceptable reason in Biblical scripture is the departure of a nonbeliever. Reference 1 Corinthians 7:15. " But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace"

In our class the idea was presented that one should not divorce becuase "we just don't love each other anymore" or "mutual incompatibility" in which case it was advised that counseling be sought if both parties are Christians.

CIrcumstances NOT specifically addressed in the Bible as grounds for divorce were physical or sexual abuse and in our class we were advised in situations like that to examine God's other commands and find other related biblical principals pertaining to this. Bible does say that God hates a man who covers himself in violence and it was brought out the I am not responsible for outcomes and actions of another(back to the old I cannot control or cure motto). God does not want us to accept abuse. We were advised forgiveness if the other confesses their sin we have the duty of forgiveness. Regarding remarriage divorce always involves sin but not always both paries sin. Bible experts adopt the phrases "guilty party" and "innocent party" to determine eligibility for remarriage. From the Biblical viewpoint the 'innocent party' is free to remarry.

Based on these teachings the woman referenced in the original post certainly would have Biblical grounds for divorce and is not expected to tolerate abuse and infidelity. That is not Biblical based. If however she choses to do so then of course she is free to do so and she is probably deeply enmeshed in codie behavior as many of us have been for many years. I am at peace with myself after this class that I do not have to put up with a verbally abusive AH. There are also many Biblical reference regardings Gods view of drunkeness reference Galations 5:19-21 "The acts of the flesh are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God". Also Paul's letter to the Corinthians 1 Corinthians 5: "But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."

LaTeeDa

Rationalization, justification, minimalizing--these were all simply ways of surviving for me when I was living in dysfunction. Some use religion, some use money, some use the kids, some use past trauma, there are as many excuses as there are people. It's all just a means of comforting our ego and quieting our fears of taking necessary action. The bottom line is we can only make choices for ourselves. She's making hers and there is really nothing anyone can do about it except her.

Mike's absolutely correct that living by example is the best way to make a difference.

L

fedup22

I am a Christian, so is my husband, and we are both of the mindset that forgiveness and "maintaining status quo" are completely separate ideas. I can forgive because God teaches me to do this, and because it is better for my heart and well-being. However, if I am being abused, (physically, emotionally, verbally) or mistreated by people doing un-Christianlike things, God also says he does not want me around those people. I can forgive someone, but not want anything further to do with them in my life, and God is okay with that. He wants me to surround myself with good Christians anyway. I guess the marriage part is where it gets tricky, but I feel the same way about that as well. Not all Christians believe "forgive and get back to normal," and that doesn't make us "bad" Christians. I agree, it sounds like she is using that as a crutch. My husband also has a codependent mother (who we have no contact with) who was constantly trying to use religion to pressure him into "forgiveness" because "God wants us to." I wish so many people didn't use "forgiveness" and "reconciliation" as synonyms...they aren't at all!!

AlwaysGrowing

Been and recommend this program 1000% percent!!

Hopeworks

I don't believe that there is any question how God wants us to respond to partner who is tearing the marriage apart through their destructive behaviors and he patterned it with his own response to Israel when she sinned against Him... he seperated Himself from her until she repented. Interestingly enough God has always considered his children and church universal "His bride" and our relationship is patterned after marriage.

There is a great book that outlines this concept called "Redemptive Divorce" and how a Christian partner can seperate or even file for divorce and outline what the offending spouse can do to effect a reconciliation and stop the divorce. If the offending spouse does not want to take positive steps and action (in our case recovery and no alcohol) then the divorce will go through.

Here is a video interview by the author... and this concept can work without the Christian emphasis.

Redemptive Divorce Interview on "Time for Hope" - YouTube

transformyself

I didn't mean to offend anyone with the thread; have learnt my lesson alright. I feel good about the few things I did say to her and have worked my anger out towards her husband. It will change my relationship with him and I'll have to work hard to not be nasty to him, but ultimately it's nunamy business and I need to focus on myself.

I"m grateful for the info in this thread though, as someone who doesn't understand religion too well. I knew it couldn't be because God Told Her To Stay because in my books, Creator would never want someone to be abused and disrespected.

But, as in all other aspects of being clothed in human skin, it's up to us to create the boundaries that keep us safe.

sjb

i doubt this situation is due exclusively to being christian, and why would anyone put that out there without looking at things like self esteem, methods of placing boundaries, maybe even abandonement issues?...............or...........maybe it's just an individual life choice. To imply there is something wrong here due to a religious belief is.........well there are several descriptions. none of them good.

lillamy

I think she's doing the same thing so many of us do/did: Hanging on to reasons to stay because she's terrified of leaving, while at the same time, desperately wishing there was a magic button that would allow her to leave.

I struggled with the same thing for many years, thinking that if I just loved him enough, prayed for him enough, did for him enough, God would make him stop drinking. Then I came to the conclusion that I wasn't being loving and humble, I was trying to be GOD, trying to control my husband's choices and actions through mine. That's not love, that's hubris: Putting yourself on the same level as God.

Unfortunately, there are women all over this world who die because they don't want to go against what they have been taught are the tenets of their religion. It's their choice. But we can always listen and offer alternative viewpoints.

TakingCharge999

I apologize for my post, it was uncalled for. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Transformy after so many years of abuse of many kinds and self abuse I would also get angry knowing someone else is willing to be placed in the same situation saying God wants them to. I wish people start waking up to what is sanity and what it is not, that is why I like SR.

StarCat

One of my favorite single verses lately:

And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
~ Matthew 10:14, Mark 6:11 and Luke 9:5 (wording varies slightly between them).

The verse itself is referring directly to towns or households that won't listen to the words of the Gospels, but I view it to mean that we do not have to beat our heads against a brick wall trying to squeeze blood from a stone. If someone won't live in a Christian manner despite your best efforts, you're allowed to move on. Abusiveness, addiction, infidelity, all these things are grounds to "shake the dust from my sandals."


I believe that many people don't stay stuck in a bad situation so much because they believe their faith tells them they cannot leave, but that they're interpreting their religion to provide excuses not to face their fears. This is what I used when denial wasn't working anymore because I couldn't deny what was happening - and I wasn't married to XABF.

Anything can be corrupted (consciously or unconsciously, intentionally or accidentally) to convince others of an answer other than the truth, in conjunction with denial or as a separate tactic. I have great experience on both sides of that fence, and if you'd like my resume on the matter check my earliest posts here!

hadenoug

I'm Catholic and do have a hard time with all of this. One day my pastor said this as part of his homily:
"We should surround ourselves with those people who help us become closer to God. At some point if people are continuously pulling us away from God these are people we should consider removing from our lives".