BigWou

I wanted to post on this, as AA says it "is a program of spirituality" and not religion. Yet if you really read the text, the big book even says it is a religious program of action. And how many times have I heard the ******* G word in the rooms??? Very frustrating to someone who was FORCED to go to church, youth groups, bell choir, trips/missions to Mexico as a kid and teen by my overzealous and very religious mother. Yet she still says she did not know what else to do, and that she never forced us (Me and my sister) or hurt us. BS!!! My mom was a total hypocrite sometimes. Even though she was not an alcoholic, she sure acted like a dry drunk sometimes. She was really a frustrated, angry, moody as hell rageaholic. She used to beat the crap out of us for even little things, yet she still denies that as well.
After all of this, I moved on and as an adult became an alc. and addict. So I really had alot oyears of misery out there. And in AA I am told I have "to find a power greater than myself + hear the G word" all the time. Just makes me fg. cringe!! I have found the power more likely in nature, and meditation. I have been in AA on and off for 15 years!!! Can you believe that?? Look: to any newcomers, do NOT let "program people" bully you into doing things you do not want to. Many of these people are hypocrites as well. They preach the program, but look at what they do after the meetings. Trying to hook up with slutty girls/women (even if they're married), stealing ****, threatening people, etc.. Find a sponsor that genuinely wants to help you (not control and bully you) and has what you want. Go in for yourself --- There is not other way this will work. You may have to hit a bad bottom or bottoms as I have.

Try to remember this: Whatever anyone else says or does to you if you go to meetings, take it with a grain of salt. Do not let people push you around or out of a meeting. And there are always other meetings if you don't care for a particular one. Good luck to you!! **We are all here because we are not all there!!**

Terminally Unique

Assuming you are not court-ordered to attend, wouldn't it be easier to just not go to AA if you don't like it?

Pigtails

I agree that many of the terms and teachings in the Big Book are religious and that some of the people in AA do not practice the program. I am an agnostic and I grew up in an overly strict religious home and I hate that kind of thing. However for some reason AA has worked for me, it is the one thing that helped me get and stay sober. I look it as a way of life and I make up my own rules and ignore any talk of religion and "God" in the traditional sense. To me the essense of the program is being true to myself, doing what I KNOW to be right instead of whatever the heck I feel like, realizing that I am not in control of everything and I should just let go and give some things up to the Universe/Fate, whatever you want to call it, that I should be good to my fellow human beings and honest to them and to myself, and that we are all connected and we should help each other strive to be good instead of self-destructive and selfish. In this way I have found my new "religion" and it really helps me live life better. I don't worry about what everyone else says and does but overall I have found some very admirable awesome people in AA who are my friends and my supporters in sobriety, and so I focus on the positive instead of the negative. I hope this helps. It's just my own experience and I do understand the criticisms of AA. Best wishes to you.

PaperDolls

You seem angry. I used to feel that way too. I cringed when I heard the G word.

It's true, AA is based on Christian principals but they do use the HP word for a reason. It is a spiritual program, not a religious program.

I don't use the G word as my HP. Some people do. It doesn't make a bit of difference to me. I know what works for ME.

As far as your comment
Dude, find a different meeting. That's not been my experience at meetings. Sure, stuff happens, inside AA and outside. But that's for sure, not the way I would say the majority of AA meetings are.

I hope you find something that works for you. I know, from experience, feeling so angry is no fun.

Sapling

This is what I did...And it worked...And I've only been in the program nine months...Did you do the same thing?...If so...why have you been on and off for 15 years?

BigWou

My reply is that yes, I don't have to go if I don't want to/or have a bad attitude towards AA. I have always wondered about Rational Recovery, and Choice Theory. I would like to hear more about that. Also, AA DOES work for alot of people. I am not denying that. And God does not have to be your Higher Power. It can be many things. I am just new again (15 days) and frustrated. AA has typically NOT worked for me very well. So I have lost faith in it; again, though, if you do buy in 100%, and want to do the program, it will most likely work for you. I am not totally anti-AA or NA, just saying that I am very frustrated with it at this time. However I do not want to go back to drinking/using.

Sapling

Beautiful Pigtails...I think you're getting it...

PaperDolls

Well, you're in the right place then BigWou because you'll find people here at SR have recovered using many different methods. Terminally Unique can point you to a discussion thread about Rational Recovery that may help you out.

I'm glad you made it back ..... 15 days is a great start.

Terminally Unique

I don't know anything about Choice Theory, but there is an active AVRT discussion thread in the secular connections forum here on SR. I'll send you some other links on Rational Recovery via Private Message shortly.

augustwest

It's easy to get hung up on the God business. I did at first, but...

"God" =/= Jesus or christianity unless you want it to

Nobody made me do anything i didn't want to when i was out there drinking and drugging, and the same held true once i came to AA

my righteous indignation over the god/he/him business seemed pretty absurd when balanced with the crap i was doing that landed me in the rooms

like it or not(i don't), america is amostly christian nation. the big book was written in an era where a broader nomenclature for god and spiritual matters didn't exist.

power greater than ourselves and as you understood him are key parts that often get ignored.

AA is a spiritual program and makes no apologies for that. It prescribes a spiritual treatment to alcoholism that is fundamentally based on a relationship with a higher power, spiritual practices, and adherence to spiritual principles. That's just how it works. That being the case, there's zero chance that god won't be talked about. but god isn't one thing to all people.

there are numerous secular approaches that treat alcoholism. that's probably the way to go for someone who can't reconcile the god business.

BHF

Most court systems now recognize that they cannot court-order litigants/defendants to attend AA specifically. I believe that there has actually been a U.S. Supreme Court decision (possibly a lower court) on this topic which finds that regardless of the statment that AA, as a whole, has no religous affiliation that the program in itself is either a form of religous organization, or so close there to as to be indistinguishable. Therefore, the legal system should not order defendants to specifically attend AA, but, rather, can order defendants to attend some form of alcohol recovery group/counseling. The courts will accept AA, SMART, religous recovery programs and even individual therapy. Anything that is quasi-organized and requires specific attendance. Obviously, most who are ordered to attend choose AA because of the availability and cost (free).

I know... off topic, but something that I encountered a while back and found interesting.

Pigtails

Good for you for not wanting to go back to drinking/using, to getting sober again and on your fifteen days! That's great news. I agree you should try to find a different type of recovery program, and/or maybe a different AA group. I have heard of groups that are agnostic and/or primarily for lesbian women and/or primarily for professinonals or a certain career...I've heard of an agnostic and feminist group in my city that always says "HP" instead of God (apparently this is controversial but I could care less.... I think people should work the program the way it works best for them, and if they find or start a group of like-minded people, so much the better for them!)... there are lots of different groups and I'm sure you can find one where that stuff doesn't happen. And honestly if you find a group with some good and bad qualities, you could just ignore what you don't like and practice what works for you. So if it's a personality/other people thing, just ignore them, but if it's a matter of nothing in the program working for you and you truly want a different theory of recovery, then yeah leave AA and try Smart or Rational Recovery etc. (I know they are not nearly as accessible as AA meetings, but, they do have stuff online and self-study etc.) Good luck. Stay strong and stay sober!!

Dee74

Welcoem BigWou

sorry for your issues with AA.

I reckon, whatever the programme, if it doesn't work for you personally find something that does.

Like others have said there are many alternatives - you've already got the link to our secular forum - here a link to some of the other players - including SMART and LifeRing.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html

D

awuh1

He that complies against his will, is of his own opinion still, which he may adhere to, yet disown, for reasons to himself best known. (Samuel Butler, Hudibras)

For every alcoholic you show me who is not a Christian, I’ll show you a Christian who’s not a Christian.

WakeUp

In keeping with it's Traditions, Alcoholics Anonymous does not get involved in outside issues. Religion is an outside issue.
AA is a spiritual program of action. I know people who use the word "God" but do not believe in the "old man in the sky with a long beard God". I know Wiccans, Buddhists, The Universe as a Higher Power types. Yes there are people who believe in the traditional God, but the AA tent is big enough for everyone.

soberlicious

I do not believe there is a power greater than myself when it comes to not drinking.. Of course I have beliefs about the universe, our inter-relateness, and the power of humanity. But when it comes to addiction, I alone choose to drink or not drink. The onus is on me always.

This "God business" as some put it is not something easily set aside for many. Nontheism is as powerful a belief as Christianity, and should be respected. Asking a Christian to sit for hours and listen to people say "There is no God", "You just don't get it, God is not real", etc. etc might be pretty uncomfortable for them and it is rather naive to think that this would not get in the way of a "bigger message" of freedom from addiction. Yet nontheists are asked all the time to just ignore the God/HP stuff. Some can reconcile it within the fellowship, some can't.

BigWou, please do check out the recommendations others have given. You do not have to remain addicted to alcohol. You can walk free. I'm glad you are here.

sugarbear1

I exercise religiously every day. My sponsor and I use a dictionary when we study the big book. religious = scrupulously and conscientiously faithful

Peter G

Seems like it's very easy to forget the way things were back when the BB was written, and many times when exposed to AA we attach 21st century axioms to something authored in the 1930's. At the time it was written it was a common assumption that most everyone was Christian/religious, as in "go to church on Sunday, read a few chapters, say Hallelujah, and go home." Not only was this a common assumption, the book was authored by Christian men of that time. Hence the "God" rhetoric is oft times attenuated with some fairly thick Christian/religious colloquialisms. In this respect the message of the Big Book has been known to be mis-categorized as antiquated and overly religious in tone.

Sometimes I find it quite necessary to remind myself of that; that the BB was written in the language of the time, for the people of that time. There's certainly nothing sinister to draw from it once I apply a modern template. The higher power/God paradigm as they wrote it then, can mean many things to many different people today. An HP can be as simple as the fellowship itself, or a belief that by projecting the selfless, humble energy of the steps, you have a statistical probability of seeing good results come back to you. It can mean anything at all, really. Higher Self, Love, family, e.t.c... My musician friend - highly secular - told me his higher power is defined as "love for music."

Spiritual principals now are far more diverse and multi timbral today than they were back then. In fact the word 'spiritual' back in the 1930's often implied mysticism, and gave many religious folks a negative pause when mentioned. Go figure. IMO, take what was written and apply your own internal spiritual concept to it and learn how to ignore the dogmatic folks in AA who just love to remix anything and everything into an annoying Jesus groove. Those folks can get to me also, but with practice I can ignore them easy enough. Attacking the message because "God" is within those pages is what a great many of us did at first, but doing so is putting the cart before the horse, because it really is an argument of semantics. Unnecessary contempt over a benign and ultimately wonderful program is what happens when we connect our early developmental "religious" experiences (read: nightmares) to the God model as proposed in AA literature.

I've also been confronted by the issues you've mentioned. My first meeting finder here in Asia sent me to a group that was nothing but a glorified prayer circle. There were more bibles there than Big Books, and the Christian/Catholic overtones were thick enough to make me physically ill. What stopped me from giving up on AA then was the message contained in the book itself. I read and re-read it thoroughly, and having had it resonate on such a personal level I knew intimately that the meeting I had come from was a bunch of dogmatic crap. So I kept reading the book, absorbing the message I was hearing within the text, and looked for better meetings.

Let's face it, these days there are many Buddhists, secularists, gays, lesbians, Muslims, e.t.c... attending AA, using their own definitions of 'spirit' and 'God' to work a good program and stay sober. When I'm approached or preached at by the religious knuckleheads pimping Jesus to me like I'm some red-headed stepchild? I give them my own simple solution. I tell them politely to f**k off and go away. Guess what? They happily do f**k off 100% of the time and I go on with working my program under no religious pressures.

The entire purpose of AA is to help folks get and stay sober with a commitment to themselves that is doable, and live content and happy, free of the shackles booze has attached to us. The authors used the concept of spirituality - as it was known to them at the time - and found that as such, the steps were the key to achieving their 1930's white/male/Christian sobriety. Today many folks take their own principals, apply them to the BB of AA, and get sober in just the same way. It can do that for you as well, but as you said yourself, you have to 'buy in' 100%. To resort to an AA cliche, half measures avail us nothing, and that applies equally to any program or technique used to get sober.

I'd also add that the frustration you are feeling is not uncommon early in sobriety. Hell, I questioned everything. My own resolve, the point of it all, the program of AA, even the neighbors noisy-a$$ kids became the frustration that led me to want to walk away from my NEED to quit drinking. One of the secrets to sobriety IMO is learning how to accept that frustration will always rear it's nasty head and spit at us. The real trick is knowing that as long as we don't drink behind it, eventually frustration passes, or it gets worked through and evolves into a new and positive understanding.

If the literature itself gets you over-the-top aggro, re-write the thing and put whatever you consider relevant to you in the sections that speak about God. A guy sitting next to me at one of my brothers meetings long ago had crossed out "God" and penciled in "Big Dawg", throughout his entire BB. lol! Hey, worked for him. He was 14 years sober. If it's the rooms and meetings that put you off, find a room that's 'low fat', aka light on Christians, and heavy on secular and agnostic folks. Might take some time, but you'll find those rooms. If they exist here in Singapore, for sure you've got a few in your general direction.

DisplacedGRITS

I tune out the G word in AA and truly treat it as a spiritual entity. If i felt pressured by anyone in a group i would have to explain to them that i am a good person that deserves recovery and respect and that them shoving their religion on me is not helpful. God says Love Your Neighbor. How is making your Neighbor uncomfortable helpful? God gave us free will. I get to choose. I won't deny them thethat chance to preach to me once. Once. After that it is Gods's Will that i have a chance to choose.

soberlicious

Certainly, yes, by definition. However, it should be acknowledged that the word "religion" has powerful negative connotions for some. For others, very positive feelings arise from the word, and still others have a rather neutral response. I honor each, and would not wish to diminish any of them.