Sapling

Not really sure what the whole point of this thread is...But I've read that book enough times to know you won't find that line in there anywhere..You will find this from the Big Book first edition..pg28

We think it no concern of ours what religious bodies our members identify themselves with as individuals. This should be an entirely personal affair which each one decides for himself in the light of past associations, or his present choice. Not all of us join religious bodies, but most of us favor such memberships.

You have to remember when they say most of us favor such memberships...This was back when there was a little more than 100 members. I think you're free to go...Whatever you believe in...

CloudStrife

Hey I get it!!!
My addictions make me ANGRY too!!!!
But what /who should I take that anger out on?
I don't feel like I deserve the anger so should I look to my parents?
Thats a dead end road. Let anger go.
I'm trying to accept where my life is now and understand I'm responsible for where it goes from here on out.

macknacat

This is a regular topic here at SR- so you are sure not alone in wanting to dig at the god thingy

The overt judaic christian terms can be offputting-in the historical context, they are not surprising. Still, many of us have been able to see the next layer - to understand that we needed a transpersonal power to sustain a fundamental change in our psychology - and AA is often the only group that gives us a "program" to get that insight. For me it was AA /NA that brought me recovery - so 16 yrs later, it is still what i do.

Spirituality doesn't speak to everybody- it just seems that it has a track record in allowing hopeless dope fiends to become dopeless hope fiends.

So- maybe you are looking for a meeting like my home group- Wiccan, Hindu, Bhuddist, agnostic/atheist, Jewish, native American.... no christians [yet]

Zencat

to SR BigWou.

No one single program is appropriate for everybody. I have come across more that a few people that, after working the program, have found out AA is not for them. Thankfully there other alternative recovery paths that are very effective in treating alcoholism.

I do agree that AA is not religious in the common notion of other organizations that are in deed religious. AA's spirituality is religious in nature. Practices of prayer to a supernatural force, then having faith that those prayers will be answered parallels common religious practices.

As for the alternatives to AA, below are some excellent organizations that help the most hopeless, beaten down, last resort alcoholics/addicts into a great life drug free.

SMART Tools and SMART Articles
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Recovery Tools from cbtrecovery.com
DBT Life Skills For Emotional Health Great tools for maintaining sobriety. (from dbtselfhelp.com/index.html)
Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction. By Jack Trimpey. (Google book preview including the Addiction Voice Recognition Technique or the AVRT)

eJoshua

Wow! No one is holding a gun to your head and saying you have to go to AA. Take a cue from this guy:

It sounds like it's probably not the best fit for you. Check out some other recovery programs. Whatever you do, find something that will keep you sober for good. Your method is only good in as much as it keeps you sober.

MemphisBlues

My sponsor has been sober for 31 years and is a practicing Buddhist. We attend meetings in a predominately Catholic country. She tells me to pray. Go figure.

BigWou

I thank you all for your posts and advice. The frustration for me is realizing that alc. and drugs will NEVER really help me anymore to have a better life. They never really did from the get-go. At a certain point, I have to realize: Hey, You're done with the carnival! Just walk away and make a decision for good: I am not going to drink/use anymore no matter what! It's just not an option anymore. Thanks Again Guys and Women!

onlythetruth

There is no US Supreme Court case on point. There are, however, several state supreme court cases and several federal circuit court cases holding that 12 step programs are sufficiently religious for mandated attendance to violate the first amendment unless secular choices are provided.

Is Mandated 12-Step Attendance A Violation Of Your Constitutional Rights? | SMART Recovery®

Db1105

I've been sober in AA for 34 years and still an agnostic. I haven't seen any of the religious crap in my area, but yeah, there are some in recovery just to dry out and not better themselves. Recovery is what you make it. I find there are far more scumbags in the bars, then in the rooms of AA. Unfortunately, the only person we can change is ourselves.

Terminally Unique

It is perhaps ironic, considering that I am atheist, but I find the pot-shots at religion in the rooms ("old man in the sky with a long beard", "religious crap", etc) more disturbing than the religious content of 12-Steppism itself. Go figure.

ACT10Npack

It's one of the reason why I can't stand AA which I don't go. I found the God thing pointless for recovery for myself. I never drank because I was upset with God and start to not believe in it. I drank because I was depress and got addicted to it. I had to learn that I can control what I put in my mouth and needed to learn how to deal with my depression. Yea, I relapse a lot but I learn from it and I'm sober now. 2 weeks only but I don't feel like drinking now.

michelle01

I'm not in AA, I'm Christian though, didn't grow up as one, converted later in life. I'll agree that some people can attend church their whole lives, and it doesn't appear to do them much good. And some religious upbringings can be harmful, I'm grateful not to have experienced that.

I think it took being an alcoholic for me to really discover the true meaning of spirituality, unfortunately I think there's a lack of specific resources on addiction for Christians in churches, though they're affected like everyone else. Most of them try to hide it because of shame... that's a stigma that at least doesn't exist in AA.

BigWou I wish you all the best in this, AA's not for everyone and though I'm a Christian I still like to meditate (think it would do a lot of Christians some good instead of just their petition prayers) and appreciate nature. I use that and the secular counselling I receive to stay sober.

(Not trying to be religiously or treatment divisive here, just my own experience.)

Terminally Unique

This is the kind of humble arrogance towards religious people that I referred to in my post above, though there are other similar posts in this thread, and many more in other threads. Sinners turned would-be-prophets are quite common in the world of 'recovery', where only drunks and junkies (presumably) understand the true meaning of spirituality and prayer. Absurd.

Mark75

Michelle's experience was her own truth, I don't believe anything in her post suggested that "only drunks and junkies understand the true meaning of prayer".

AA is spiritual and uses the word "God" a lot. People talk about prayer and all that... It's a "God of your understanding". I used to think, very recently, in fact, that somehow AA should make itself more accessible and downplay the God thing. I don't anymore... It's a spiritual program, AA... if someone isn't ready or doesn't want what we have... that's fine, really.

We have some great examples of recovery right here on SR that found their way to sobriety without AA and religion and spirituality... do what they did!

RobbyRobot

I like what is being said in both above statements. Spirituality and religion are of the same coin and the defining lines often blur and just as often have distinct differences when dialogue sourced from differing experiences is shared.

Terminally Unique

I bolded the relevant parts, Mark. "I still like to meditate (think it would do a lot of Christians some good instead of just their petition prayers)" ?!!?!

I am not concerned about people's own experience and truth, but the idea that since those 'normies' haven't been equally humbled, they don't quite get the true meaning of spirituality and/or prayer. Given the amount of time you've been around recovery types, I am certain you know what I speak of.

Mark75

I know those types, sure.

Yea, I guess those who hit bottom.... some of them, by no means all, or even most (?)... feel that way... that only people like them can possibly know... and thus not understand the true meaning of spirituality and prayer.

But that is part of the self centeredness, perhaps, that goes with it?

Myself, not only have I experienced my own awakening, I see it in others... not that I am taking their inventory, or at least not intending to... but that we are all human with our own struggles... our own 40 days the desert or through that lonesome valley. Whether we discuss it in spiritual (or religious) terms, or something else.

Is it that different?

jobei

I appreciate your post big time. I've already ran into some of this and I'm only 7 days in. I am not interested in judging people but I know the ones I have to avoid. It's just like anywhere else... there's going to be ppl that don't get it. In my opinion though it's a better idea to keep going... because if these people act the way they do... you won't see them at the meetings after too long anyway.

Sapling

Exactly...Stick with the people that are working the program...They're pretty easy to spot...They usually look happy...

awuh1

Why so harsh TU? Your choice of words? “Pot shots” “12 steppism”, “humble arrogance” (actually oxymoronic), “Sinners turned would-be-prophets”. I think what Michelle was saying was that she’s open minded enough to come to view some things a bit differently than many of those around her (you can’t relate?). She is not afraid to say it. You state you are “not concerned about people's own experience and truth”. She is, as am I. It’s our currency in helping others, our stock in trade for part of our own recovery. She respectfully offered her view. She did not demand anyone accept it. She related her experience regarding the importance of meditation and nature, as did BigWou. Her words were clearly intended to be helpful.

It’s important to reiterate that she did not say “only drunks and junkies understand the true meaning of prayer”.

Perhaps you’re reacting more to “drunks and junkies” who are the “would-be- prophets” from your own experience. But these “recovery types”, as you call them, are not the message. It’s wise not to confuse the two. That would seem to be a central point here.