Agnostics and Atheists at Holiday Time
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Agnostics and Atheists at Holiday Time
Although I am not an agnostic I believe I owe much of my sobriety to an agnostic group which gave me some insight on issues which I had found troublesome in Alcoholics Anonymous. They helped me appreciate all the good aspects of the program and encouraged me to stick with it. Nonetheless, at this time of the year I sense how agnostics must at times feel somewhat isolated by a culture which places so much emphasis on Christian doctrine. The same may also be true with other beliefs. Some might say that Christmas has not only been excessively commercialized but that it has also been overdone. Occasionally I hear an angry comment at an agnostic meeting, deploring all the Christmas carols which displace normal programming on classical radio channels. At one point I was tempted to leave a meeting when someone suggested that the virgin birth was but a ruse to cover up an illicit relationship. I merely remarked that, for the life of me, I couldn’t see what such things had to do with recovering from alcoholism and remaining sober.
I can’t help thinking that Bill W. and Dr. Bob, despite their having been influenced by the Oxford Movement, would enthusiastically endorse a hearty welcome to alcoholics of all faiths and beliefs, including agnostics and atheists. Because the primary purpose, perhaps the only purpose, of the program is to achieve sobriety and to help others to do so. So the best way to celebrate the holidays, I believe, is to give a welcoming handshake and a pat on the back to all those who suffer from this illness. Good luck and every good wish! Let’s hope that in 2011 and thereafter more and more of us are going to be O.K.
W.
I can’t help thinking that Bill W. and Dr. Bob, despite their having been influenced by the Oxford Movement, would enthusiastically endorse a hearty welcome to alcoholics of all faiths and beliefs, including agnostics and atheists. Because the primary purpose, perhaps the only purpose, of the program is to achieve sobriety and to help others to do so. So the best way to celebrate the holidays, I believe, is to give a welcoming handshake and a pat on the back to all those who suffer from this illness. Good luck and every good wish! Let’s hope that in 2011 and thereafter more and more of us are going to be O.K.
W.
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I don't have a religious bone in my body but love Christmas..Trees, songs, snowmen, cookies, family, gifts, houses decorated with lights. Most of Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus anyway.
Hell, if anyone has a point it is Christians that think Christmas doesn't have enough to do with Jesus because it really doesn't.
The people you speak of just sound miserable in general, wouldn't matter what faith or lack of.
Hell, if anyone has a point it is Christians that think Christmas doesn't have enough to do with Jesus because it really doesn't.
The people you speak of just sound miserable in general, wouldn't matter what faith or lack of.
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I don't view Christmas as necessarily religious, but definitely over-commercialized. I don't care for gift exchanging anymore.
I am just there for friends, family, and good food. That is all Christmas means to me. Who doesn't love friends, family (when they aren't driving you nuts), and good food?
I am just there for friends, family, and good food. That is all Christmas means to me. Who doesn't love friends, family (when they aren't driving you nuts), and good food?
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Originally Posted by dubbguy 
Most of Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus anyway.
The preparations, the decorations, the celebrations, the music, the food, the good cheer... Is about what, actually? What are we anticipating? What are celebrating? I don't mind too much the commercialism... I see it as the build up to a great celebration... the birth of Jesus.
It's funny... not a single smilie has anything acknowledging what it's about.... Not even the 3 kings, or the Nativity Scene, Gabriel, Mary/Joseph...
Sorry, I am not a bible thumper.... but I am christian and it is still important.
Edit... I just noticed.... Merry Ghristmas??? (See above, the smilie)
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The tree, the lights, the snowmen - it's really all Pagan. But I love Christmas. I love giving presents, too. And the food. And the lights. And walking thru my neighborhood at night and seeing everyone's decorations. It's like they did it just for me. (Narcissist Alcoholic) Everyone seems a little happier, too. I love it.
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Wpainter, I think you have the right attitude, and it's not worth it to let the negativity you hear at those meetings take you off track, anymore than people should get distracted by "God this" and "God that" at AA meetings.
I received a Christmas card from my oldest friend recently, someone I am fairly out of touch with, but who knows I quit drinking and had begun to have a spirituality again. But then, the Xmas card had Jesus as the theme, and I thought, "Oh, come on, you know that's not what I meant." Ha ha. But I expelled that thinking out of my head because it doesn't do any good, and the card probably would have said something similar any other year for that matter. There was a friendly intention when it comes down to it, and that's what counts, just like communicating about getting over addiction and staying that way.
I've noticed in the last few weeks that I have shifted spiritually again, and don't feel so connected anymore, but I wouldn't say it's completely dead. It's not the same as in past years, when I had a much more resentful core to the non-believing beliefs. That's something that is right at the heart of a lot of people who are atheist, I think, and some probably would see that over time. Agnostics, that's harder to say, but it's possible they have resentments too. I think I have a lot of unanswered questions, nothing too different from many people.
And on Xmas itself, yes, I fall victim to scroogey moods fairly easily. I get a warm feeling when I hear or see a symbol of Xmas, but I also cringe too. Just last night I was walking by a house that I know is often admired in this area, and I was annoyed when I heard this cheap-sounding tune faux-chiming out of a wreath they'd hung up to their verandah. Yuck. I said to myself, "The best Christmas decorations are silent." And of course, it's been way overdone for a long time from a commercial perspective. What I think is really inspiring is when you hear about some person who secretly left money somewhere or did something special and didn't stick around to get a taste of the appreciation. It's really not bound to a specific day of the year either.
But of course, I hope people will have a happy Xmas and other holidays too.
I received a Christmas card from my oldest friend recently, someone I am fairly out of touch with, but who knows I quit drinking and had begun to have a spirituality again. But then, the Xmas card had Jesus as the theme, and I thought, "Oh, come on, you know that's not what I meant." Ha ha. But I expelled that thinking out of my head because it doesn't do any good, and the card probably would have said something similar any other year for that matter. There was a friendly intention when it comes down to it, and that's what counts, just like communicating about getting over addiction and staying that way.
I've noticed in the last few weeks that I have shifted spiritually again, and don't feel so connected anymore, but I wouldn't say it's completely dead. It's not the same as in past years, when I had a much more resentful core to the non-believing beliefs. That's something that is right at the heart of a lot of people who are atheist, I think, and some probably would see that over time. Agnostics, that's harder to say, but it's possible they have resentments too. I think I have a lot of unanswered questions, nothing too different from many people.
And on Xmas itself, yes, I fall victim to scroogey moods fairly easily. I get a warm feeling when I hear or see a symbol of Xmas, but I also cringe too. Just last night I was walking by a house that I know is often admired in this area, and I was annoyed when I heard this cheap-sounding tune faux-chiming out of a wreath they'd hung up to their verandah. Yuck. I said to myself, "The best Christmas decorations are silent." And of course, it's been way overdone for a long time from a commercial perspective. What I think is really inspiring is when you hear about some person who secretly left money somewhere or did something special and didn't stick around to get a taste of the appreciation. It's really not bound to a specific day of the year either.
But of course, I hope people will have a happy Xmas and other holidays too.
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I like the Pagan celebrations (reason) of the season. Also the house lighting and decorations are fun to tour about and see.
Theirs one street in my town that goes way, way over the the top with the decorations....Love It!
Theirs one street in my town that goes way, way over the the top with the decorations....Love It!
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wpainterw. Your friends responses to Christmas reminds me of the quote from the big book. ""If we were to live, we had to be free of anger. The grouch and the brainstorm were not for us. They may be the dubious luxury of normal men, but for alcoholics these things are poison." They can hate Christmas all they want and anything else for that matter, but how is that working out for them? I personally love Christmas. It has occurred to me that the more upset I get with others (even when I'm right) the more negative it makes me. The more negative I get, the more the desire for the first drink appears. Hope that helps. Best of luck!
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Originally Posted by Zencat
I like the Pagan celebrations (reason) of the season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZV4P4BVQco
One moment at a time.
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For me, I am not religious at all.. I was brought up Catholic, but do not believe in the Bible and do not believe in the religion. I am however spiritual, and spirituality and religion are two different things. For me spirituality is living in a moral manner to the best of your ability always allowing room for improvement because I know I am not and will not be perfect. As for Christmas and the holidays, I think they are great, and it brings my family together and it gives me a chance to go home and visit everyone all at once at one sitting.
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Thanks everyone for all your interesting and heartfelt replies. Well, I guess Christmas means different things to different folks. And it certainly doesn't do much harm, except maybe if people drink too much and get themselves in trouble. And, for some of the older folks, it brings back memories and I guess that sometimes they feel isolated. I have two sons.One lives way out in Minnesota and the other on the East Coast. We really look forward to seeing the latter one later in the week.
As for me, I go easy on attending agnostic AA meetings this time of year. I sense how some of them feel and just hope that they can have some fun even though they may feel a bit isolated. I know what isolation feels like since so many of my good friends are dead now, or declining so much that it's hard for us to get together like we used to. But still with Christmas it seems like there's a good feeling in the air. And it's a clear night with a full moon out. And in the late afternoon the declining sun shines through the bare trees and it's a beautiful thing to see, is it not?
Every good wish to all of you, agnostics, believers of all sorts, whatever it is that you do to stay well and happy.
W.
As for me, I go easy on attending agnostic AA meetings this time of year. I sense how some of them feel and just hope that they can have some fun even though they may feel a bit isolated. I know what isolation feels like since so many of my good friends are dead now, or declining so much that it's hard for us to get together like we used to. But still with Christmas it seems like there's a good feeling in the air. And it's a clear night with a full moon out. And in the late afternoon the declining sun shines through the bare trees and it's a beautiful thing to see, is it not?
Every good wish to all of you, agnostics, believers of all sorts, whatever it is that you do to stay well and happy.
W.
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Atheist here. I don't mind Christmas. For me, it is a time to get together with loves ones and eat great food. I don't mind Christmas songs, even religious ones, because they bring me happy memories from my childhood. I don't really care for gift exchanges, because in my opinion, our culture has become such that people buy themselves whatever they want, and gifts become meaningless as a result. The black Friday phenomena totally disgusts me, I do t think that is what the spirit of giving is meant to be.
I believe that Jesus was an important and inspiring historical figure, not a savior. And most historians agree he was born I spring. "Christmas" is a pagan holiday I believe originated in celebration of the Winter solstice, when the days start getting longer.
That's my take on it, but I'm not going to get offended if others think different. Everyone has their own way of celebrating.
I believe that Jesus was an important and inspiring historical figure, not a savior. And most historians agree he was born I spring. "Christmas" is a pagan holiday I believe originated in celebration of the Winter solstice, when the days start getting longer.
That's my take on it, but I'm not going to get offended if others think different. Everyone has their own way of celebrating.
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Although I am not an agnostic I believe I owe much of my sobriety to an agnostic group which gave me some insight on issues which I had found troublesome in Alcoholics Anonymous.
I have a question though, it sounds as though you've come around to the basic foundation of the program and can appreciate its qualitites; you mention becoming angry to the point of wanting to walk out at a mtg,, have you considered finding a meeting that does not attatch itself to agnostic, athiesm, or Christianity? Where HP is the chosen reference? Just curious.
Most of Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus anyway.
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Atheist here as well. A quick look at history shows that Christmas was basically a hijacking of the Roman Saturnalia holiday, which was the week sandwiched around winter solstice. Saturnalia in turn was a hijacking of the Pagan solstice celebration. Today, winter solstice, is the true reason for the season. Everything else is contrived by man - today is an Earth holiday independent of man's influence.
Happy solstice! And happy whatever else you like to celebrate! Anything that contributes to collective happiness is a great big positive in my book.
Happy solstice! And happy whatever else you like to celebrate! Anything that contributes to collective happiness is a great big positive in my book.
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Originally Posted by DarkestDay
Today, winter solstice, is the true reason for the season. Everything else is contrived by man - today is an Earth holiday independent of man's influence.
I live on Canada's Pacific north coast, where the nights are 17 hours long and where a few years ago we had snow on the ground from late October to late April...six months.
I look forward to this day because it signals a turn of the seasons, the return of the sun. No matter that the next two months are actually the colder and harder months of winter, because every day the sun rises higher and stays in the sky a little longer.
I can only imagine 20,000 years ago people noticing the suns decline in the sky and the shortening days, how they might have wondered if the sun would just keep going until it was gone. I'd be keeping pretty close watch on the shadows on the cave wall at sunrise every morning, and it would be PARTY TIME once we saw that the sun wasn't going away and the days were actually getting longer again.
I think this has been a time for celebration since we acquired the intelligence to notice the changing movements of the sun.
Murray
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Hi Demut:
Just want to make sure you don't think I personally subscribe with the suggestion made by one of the respondents that Christmas "is really not about Jesus". Was it Oscar Wilde who in one of his plays has an Archbishop saying, "Whatever made you think that being an Archbishop had anything to do with religion?"
What shall we call this? A combination of humor and cynicism? (Wilde was known for his bon mots, and at times it seems forced and perhaps a bit tiresome.) Well, what ever conclusion one reaches on this issue, I submit that one thing stands out with great clarity, namely, "What has any of this gpt to do with getting and remaining sober?"
Yes, there are many agnostic meetings, particularly in large, metropolitan areas. These can be located by contacting the AA central office. And of course there are many recovery groups which are not associated with AA. My own experience was that joining a group was extremely helpful. 1-1 counseling, psychiatric, psychological or otherwise is helpful in particular situations but, at least for me, some sort of a group was essential.
W.
Just want to make sure you don't think I personally subscribe with the suggestion made by one of the respondents that Christmas "is really not about Jesus". Was it Oscar Wilde who in one of his plays has an Archbishop saying, "Whatever made you think that being an Archbishop had anything to do with religion?"
What shall we call this? A combination of humor and cynicism? (Wilde was known for his bon mots, and at times it seems forced and perhaps a bit tiresome.) Well, what ever conclusion one reaches on this issue, I submit that one thing stands out with great clarity, namely, "What has any of this gpt to do with getting and remaining sober?"
Yes, there are many agnostic meetings, particularly in large, metropolitan areas. These can be located by contacting the AA central office. And of course there are many recovery groups which are not associated with AA. My own experience was that joining a group was extremely helpful. 1-1 counseling, psychiatric, psychological or otherwise is helpful in particular situations but, at least for me, some sort of a group was essential.
W.
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Inserting reading about the origins of Christmas. I looks like Isaac Newton argued that Christmas had been selected to correspond with the winter solstice. So that debate has been going on for a wile...LOL. So its best I bow out (thanks Mark75, you helped me reach this conclusion 
) of the debate club on this one.
But there was a Pre-Christian Roman celebration of Saturnalia that ran about the same time as Christmas is observed today. Consequence or not that Christ birth occurred on various B.C. Winter Solstice feasts and other goings on during that time relates not to recovery.
) of the debate club on this one.But there was a Pre-Christian Roman celebration of Saturnalia that ran about the same time as Christmas is observed today. Consequence or not that Christ birth occurred on various B.C. Winter Solstice feasts and other goings on during that time relates not to recovery.
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"My own experience was that joining a group was extremely helpful"
BINGO! Small group ratios certainly have a positive aspect! I'm thrilled you found a place to call a home group - I have not done so yet, but I do frequent an assortment of meetings in the Minneapolis area
um, yes, I did think you personally subscribe to that belief, though I have to tell you, it is irrelevant to me, even though I did take the time to reply. I'm totally down with whatever anyone's beliefs are. Often times for the purposes of discussion, I do enjoy a healthy debate; I try my hardest to lay low on community boards, however, especially boards made up of recovering addicts and/or alanon members because it has been my experience that few of us have the capacity to conduct a respectalbe debate,, that's what other forums on the internet are for I guess. On the other hand, I do disagree with the notion that we must maintain a steady diet of "recoery talk." My recovery, only speaking for myself, encompasses every possible subject matter out there. I make no distinctions. If someone tends to trail off topic at a meeting, my philosophy is to "let it be" - but then its all about balance, anything in life is. So, naw, I don't think I would get too excited about someone ranting about all of the secular and/or Christian music, decorations and acitivities surrounding all of us this time of year. Let 'em vent. People don't annoy me like they used to. I have learned to value the perfect "out" we all have if someone is really getting under out skin!!
BINGO! Small group ratios certainly have a positive aspect! I'm thrilled you found a place to call a home group - I have not done so yet, but I do frequent an assortment of meetings in the Minneapolis area
Just want to make sure you don't think I personally subscribe with the suggestion made by one of the respondents that Christmas "is really not about Jesus".
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