uncle holmes

In the chapter "Doctor Bob's Nightmare", page 181 of the Big Book, Dr. Bob says, "Unlike most of our crowd, I did not get over my craving for liquor much during the first two and one half years of abstinence. It was always with me".

In the book, "A program for you", by Joe and Charlie, considered to be the experts on the Big Book by many, it mentions on page 34, "The physical craving is part of our allergy to alcohol. It's a reaction to having alcohol in our system. Now, notice that the physical craving begins after we drink, not before. Alcohol in our body makes us crave more alcohol.

So which one is it? Or is it possible to have the craving for liquor before AND after the first drink?

BB Quotes.1st. Edition

ANGELINA243

(For me) the mental obsession comes before taking a drink and the craving comes after taking a drink.

My understanding is that those thoughts that run rampant in my mind that precede taking that first drink is obsessive thinking. The craving (or compulsion) to keep drinking happens after I take the first drink. That starts the cycle into motion. The unquenchable thirst is what I like to call it. That is when I constantly drink and drink yet never can seem to get enough.

Supercrew

For me the mental obsession was learned, so I could unlearn it. I see this as the reason why I will pick up the first drink, because I drink at the ballgame, or on Friday or whenever I learned that I liked to have a drink in my hand to relax or celebrate or mourn or just because.

My alcoholism starts after the first couple of drinks and is the physical aspect for me where I don't have an off switch.

keithj

Everyone is free to disagree, but there is no debate in AA. The wording is sometimes mis-used, even by Dr. Bob, but the concept is clear. Physical craving occurs after one takes a drink. Mental obsession is when one is not drinking.

The alcoholics described in the BB had both problems, and that's how the AA solution is presented.

If the mental obsession part isn't there, then the solution is easy. Go get detoxed to get past the physical part and common sense will keep you from ever picking up a drink again.

But that's not what happens to Jim, Fred, the jaywalker, and the alcoholic described in the BB.

Ananda

i think the word craving can be used to describe a desire...but the bb differenciates between the physical reaction craving and the mental obsession which yep in a way is a craving..craving for the ease and comfort of that first drink.

to understand AA I had to understand the difference between those two things.

shaun00

thats an important word there ananda...desire......

i get a desire for lots of thing......cheescake....ooh yeah........a cuddle with the wife.........a new more powerful truck.....
but when none of that stuff comes off, it isnt a big deal.

a physical craving to an alcoholic like me is way different.........i wouldnt abandon my daughter for years so i could eat cheesecake.
When i trigger a craving for booze.....and i trigger that by taking a mouthful...life becomes about one thing.........GETTING MORE....till i drop....

i might even get a mild obsession cooking over cheesecake.....especiallly the strawberry one...
But a mental obssession for this drunk around booze is in a league of its own.
and i believe exclusive to the alcoholic.
i have never felt suicidal because i couldnt have cheesecake....
but take booze away from me and i quickly become morose.....before long life doesnt have any meaning......and i wish for the end.

thanks for pointing that out ananda.

Music

I'm thinking it's not really important to try to disect words here. Step six says "shortcomings" and seven says "character defects." What's the difference?? It's been said Bill didn't want to use the same word twice so he used different words to say the same thing. I think the same can be applied to "craving" and "obsession." I think they both originate in the mind. Now, a physical allergy is something else.

GettingStronger2

Actually, reading and studying the Doctor's Opinion, and then how the terms and ideas are used in the book, I do think there is a difference between craving and obessession. And I think it is intentional.

It is as described above. . .mental obssession occurs before drinking. A craving is a physical reaction once an alcoholic has taken alcohol.

Now, having said that, does it matter? Not to me so much, as I know I have both. I work to control and eliminate the mental obssession so that I do not take a drink, thereby preventing my physical craving from occurring. This keeps me sober.

yeahgr8

craving occurs after the first drink...well after ingestion of alcohol (sufficient enough to set it off physically)...before i read the BB i understood craving as being similar to having a craving for say chocolate which i now is a mental process not a physical one...like quitting smoking its impossible to have a physical craving for nicotine without putting nicotine into the system first assuming the length of time for all nicotine to leave the body has passed...its definitely posssible to have a mental obsession about having a cig though!!!

LexieCat

I haven't had physical cravings or mental obsessions about drinking since I got sober. They seem to have gone away almost immediately once I surrendered to the fact that I cannot drink like a normal person. The physical craving was gone within days of my last drink, the mental obsession within a week or so.

I have no doubt, however, that if I had one drink, I would soon be craving more--I wouldn't be able to just have one now and then. I would soon be back to my old pattern of drinking as long as I could, each time, and obsessing about not running out, topping off my drinks when the ice melted, etc. The physical craving and mental obsession seem to go together for me.

From what I hear from many relapsers, though, they didn't feel they were obsessing or craving until they carelessly had a drink and then they were off to the races.

Sugah

Maybe Dr. Bob misspoke, or perhaps his mental obsession was of the kind that evokes a physical response. Grief and longing are physical manifestations of memories or thoughts of someone lost or beyond reach. White-knuckle sobriety -- wanting a drink so much that the body has a physical response -- is not the same thing as the phenomenon of craving that sets in after the first drink, but it does feel very real, even though it's the response to thoughts, not material stimulation.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

uncle holmes

So I think it's fair to say that Dr. Bob didn't have a craving for those first two and one half years of abstinence. He didn't get over his "psychological compulsion" or "obsession" for liquor much during his first two and one half years of abstinence.

spryte

There is so much of us that wants to drink and there are many words to describe it.

My understanding is that the craving is what happens after you have your first drink. It's that 'click' that turns on like a light switch, and then you keep going and going. I'd also lump the physical craving at later stage alcoholism in with this, but I don't know what AA has to say about this. That need does go away after about a week, like any drug.

The mental obsession is more in the mind, and it may or may not stay for a long time. Personally, it hovers over me like a...well, like a ghost. That haunts me, and so on.

It's not so much the words as it is the question: what helps you get sober? (I think. Maybe?)

RobertHugh

The untreated alcoholic, according to the text, is subject to "strange mental blank spots" where there is no defense against the first drink.

"Suddenly" for me is the most important word in the Big Book. Because it captures perfectly the mental obsession that remains for the alcoholic who has not had a psychic change after working the steps.

uncle holmes

Strive to be spiritually fit every day. Work steps 4-9 every day. You can simplify doing steps 4-9 everyday by reading pages 84 starting on line 16 after the promises all the way through page 88.

In the middle to bottom on page 84 it mentions, "Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and fear" (step 4).

"When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them" (steps 6-7).

"We discuss them with someone immediately (step 5) and make amends quickly if we have harmed anyone" (steps 8-9).

So by doing step 10 you're actually doing steps 4-9.

By the time you get to page 86 you're into step 11. It tells you exactly how to start your day, "Before we begin, we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives."

As you read pages 86-88 it tells you how how to carry on throughout the day.

I personally read pages 84-88 everyday as a design for living. No need to read the 24 hour book or anything else for the design for living. By doing so I'm aware of my defects that I tend to hide and I can enter and stay into the world of the spirit (fourth dimension) through out the day if I follow what it says on pages 84-88.

If I read other parts of the Big Book or any other literature it's always optional and after I read pages 84-88. Pages 84-88 is mandatory for me everyday. This is what helps me get and stay sober.

All BB Quotes...First Edition

PaperDolls

I don't have cravings until after I drink. I sure do still think about drinking sometimes. They're passing thoughts though, not what I would call an obsession.

Tommyh

uncle holmes,the obsession and insanity runs parallel to our thinking and sometimes surfaces and sometimes does not appear to surface,it is there when we drank and when we was sober,whether we recognized it or not.

from the first ed of bb below

But there was always the curious mental phenomenon that parallel with our sound reasoning there inevitably ran some insanely trivial excuse for taking the first drink. Our sound reasoning failed to hold us in check. The insane idea won out. Next day we would ask ourselves, in all earnestness and sincerity, how it could have happened.


it can be removed,but sometimes not removed too far,maybe arms length?
Apparently Dr Bob got what he needed to keep him going back to the hospital to help a bunch of alcoholics

AB11

Is this sciencetifically proven

This is what i find happens for me

Trigger i.e. text message re-cocaine
Thought......mmmm get a bag
Feeling in the left pit of my stomach (which i thought was the craving)

So what is that feeling in the pit of my stomach.A mental obsession ????

AB11

Anybody can't seem to find an accurate answer anywhere apart from the BB

Gottalife

At the time the bb was written Silkworth was expressing a theory that it was thought the action of alcohol on the alcoholic was the manifestation of an allergy.

Today I am reliably informed that Silkworth was pretty close to the mark. It has been discovered that the liver of an alcoholic processes alcohol differently to a normal liver and one of the chemical produced in the breakdown (acetone I think) is what creates the craving. There are sites that have more details on this which I am sure someone will be able to direct you to.
As to cocaine, it is obviously a different chemical and I have no idea how that works. However what you describe sounds to me, a non addict, like a strong thrill or feeling of anticipation of the (illusory) good times experienced in the past, which would be more like the obsession of the mind.

Hope that helps.