...except when to do so would injure them or others
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
...except when to do so would injure them or others
step 9.
didn't want to hijack another's thread. But I struggle hugely with this caveat when it comes to disclosing the truth.
I see it invoked to keep quiet about misdeeds, affairs, thoughts, feelings, actions "in the past".
I am aware that I can only speak for myself here. But I cannot think of a single thing which divulged to me as an adult by another adult with whom I am on an equal footing (friends, partners etc), would harm me if it was the truth. I am a grown woman, if I experience hurt at the disclosure of another, or worry, or anger, I get to process those feelings and make choices and decisions.
Invariably it is the DEED that hurts me and MY reaction to it, not the disclosure. I am not a child, I have a right to my feelings and to work through them (with help if needed) how else do I grow? I don't want others predicting my reaction and withholding the truth based on that. I have experience of this, people not telling me of a partners numerous affairs "in the past" because they thought it would hurt me. Others not disclosing lies or a gossiping friend etc, in each of these occassions, I would have benefitted from the knowledge, because I made decisions based on the available knowledge and when it eventually came out, I was able to move forward leaps and bounds because I understood and was able to reconcile my gut with the reality.
I can understand a different dynamic may occur in parent/child, doctor/patient, boss/employee etc disclosures. But I don't want to be viewed as a child or parent by other adults with whom I pursue an equal relationship.
The steps are a program to provide a spiritual framework supporting the individuals using them, and this caveat undoubtedly helps them. The steps are geared to the individual within the program: any good that comes of it to others outside of the program is a bonus, but it bears no responsibility for those outside of it (and nor should it).
But in no other place do we get to predict the outcome for others. This part is glaringly jarring for me. So, those who use the steps can you shed any light on this?
didn't want to hijack another's thread. But I struggle hugely with this caveat when it comes to disclosing the truth.
I see it invoked to keep quiet about misdeeds, affairs, thoughts, feelings, actions "in the past".
I am aware that I can only speak for myself here. But I cannot think of a single thing which divulged to me as an adult by another adult with whom I am on an equal footing (friends, partners etc), would harm me if it was the truth. I am a grown woman, if I experience hurt at the disclosure of another, or worry, or anger, I get to process those feelings and make choices and decisions.
Invariably it is the DEED that hurts me and MY reaction to it, not the disclosure. I am not a child, I have a right to my feelings and to work through them (with help if needed) how else do I grow? I don't want others predicting my reaction and withholding the truth based on that. I have experience of this, people not telling me of a partners numerous affairs "in the past" because they thought it would hurt me. Others not disclosing lies or a gossiping friend etc, in each of these occassions, I would have benefitted from the knowledge, because I made decisions based on the available knowledge and when it eventually came out, I was able to move forward leaps and bounds because I understood and was able to reconcile my gut with the reality.
I can understand a different dynamic may occur in parent/child, doctor/patient, boss/employee etc disclosures. But I don't want to be viewed as a child or parent by other adults with whom I pursue an equal relationship.
The steps are a program to provide a spiritual framework supporting the individuals using them, and this caveat undoubtedly helps them. The steps are geared to the individual within the program: any good that comes of it to others outside of the program is a bonus, but it bears no responsibility for those outside of it (and nor should it).
But in no other place do we get to predict the outcome for others. This part is glaringly jarring for me. So, those who use the steps can you shed any light on this?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
There are very specific instances in which you "invoke" "except when to do so would injure them and others", It doesn't mean we don't "man up" and tell the truth, quite the opposite, however it means for example, if I am Gavin Newsome's lover and I am married to his best friend I don't call a press conference to announce to the press I have sleeping with the Mayor of San Francisco in order to soothe my own conscience.
That behavior harmed her husband, and quite frankly Gavin Newsome, not that he didn't have it coming but it's not her job to play God.
We don't harm others in order to make ourselves feel better. period.
As far as what others do with their step work, one of the first thing my sponsor ever told me was if I am working someone else's program then BY DEFINITION I am not working my own. What others do with their step nine is none of my business. As a matter of fact working other peoples program is about the most unhealthy thing I can do under the circumstances, seeing how I'm trying to work a program of recovery from codependency.
.
Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some general principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face jail, but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything.
Usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others to save himself AA Big Book - Chapter 6
BB 1st ed
- Serenity, A Companion for Twelve Step Recovery, p. 62, 63
Step 9
Here is a sub-forum here about step nine
Step 9 - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information
Ultimately I am responsible for me, not for how someone else does or does not work a program or hide behind step nine, if I want to know something it's my job to ask about it, not wait until someone reaches step nine in the hopes they will make an amends to me.
That behavior harmed her husband, and quite frankly Gavin Newsome, not that he didn't have it coming but it's not her job to play God.
We don't harm others in order to make ourselves feel better. period.
As far as what others do with their step work, one of the first thing my sponsor ever told me was if I am working someone else's program then BY DEFINITION I am not working my own. What others do with their step nine is none of my business. As a matter of fact working other peoples program is about the most unhealthy thing I can do under the circumstances, seeing how I'm trying to work a program of recovery from codependency.
.
Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some general principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face jail, but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything.
Usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others to save himself
BB 1st ed
The making of amends needs to be approached cautiously by codependent people. There are three things amends are or can be. There is one thing they definitely should not be.
Amends can be these things:
1. Sincere efforts to offer apology for past harm.
2. Wonderful bridge-builders for more positive future relationships.
3. Effective agents for removing the tremendous weight of guilt, shame, and remorse.
The one thing amends should never be, though, are installment payments on false guilt or false shame...
There are five categories of persons to whom we may consider making amends. Notice how this contrasts with what we did in Step 8. There we included everyone to whom we were willing to make amends. In Step 9, however, as we prepare to execute this step, we use a high degree of discretion regarding to whom we will make amends and when this should happen...
Amends can be these things:
1. Sincere efforts to offer apology for past harm.
2. Wonderful bridge-builders for more positive future relationships.
3. Effective agents for removing the tremendous weight of guilt, shame, and remorse.
The one thing amends should never be, though, are installment payments on false guilt or false shame...
There are five categories of persons to whom we may consider making amends. Notice how this contrasts with what we did in Step 8. There we included everyone to whom we were willing to make amends. In Step 9, however, as we prepare to execute this step, we use a high degree of discretion regarding to whom we will make amends and when this should happen...
Step 9
Here is a sub-forum here about step nine
Step 9 - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information
Ultimately I am responsible for me, not for how someone else does or does not work a program or hide behind step nine, if I want to know something it's my job to ask about it, not wait until someone reaches step nine in the hopes they will make an amends to me.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
thanks Ago,
lots to think about, do want to respond, but up all night with sick child (who is thankfully sleeping peacefully at the mo') and can't string two coherent thoughts together. will come back to another time.
tahnks for taking time to respond,
lots to think about, do want to respond, but up all night with sick child (who is thankfully sleeping peacefully at the mo') and can't string two coherent thoughts together. will come back to another time.
tahnks for taking time to respond,
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
LOL I had to google Mr Newsome, being a britisher.
and that's not quite what I was talking about. (plus who knows the motivations of those who willingly put themselves in the public eye when it comes to press announcements ;-p)
thanks for the information, it does clarify things, I havn't read the big book, I have only had first-hand experience of the steps as an alanon programme.
I'm not interetsed in how others do their step work in any context other than as an example to me in how to approach life. I don't judge (or at least try hard to stop myself from doing so) other people's approach to a 12-step programme, for a start because I'm not part of it, I don't understand the rules! that wasn't the rationale for me asking.
as background, I have no HP, and whilst I love the fellowship of AL-anon and some of the wisdom of the programme is invaluable, I have found it very difficult to "work" the steps ina traditional sence because of this. I know that people do manage it, I'm not saying this is a fault with the programme (I'm not saying its a fault with me either) but it is what it is. However, I do find the programme to be full of great ways to approach life. and as time has gone on, things that I thought were nuts to begin with, I have come to see the value in, through watching how people apply it to their lives and using that as a springboard to think about it myself: that was the source of my query.
Its not even really about the step or aa/alaonon, because I don't follow them, but I do try and use the wisdom and understand it, and was looking to explore that, perhaps this is not the forum for that.
I think my approach to this is that truth (albeit perceived truth) is an end in itself, and that there has to be a pretty hefty reason for that not to be a default position. I don't think predictions of "harm" to another because they may experience dificult feelings once they learn of our actions don't fulfil that (for me).
This isn't an abstract excercise, I am struggling about a disclosure, it isn't about my actions, I have knowledge of someone else's harmful actions towards another, and I have not known whether to disclose this for over a year (and because I am struggling I have done nothing).
I am aware that my feelings are coloured by my own experience. Where many people knew about my partners infidelities, I knew something was wrong, but crucially not what... people who knew about it started to distance themselves from me or act oddly because of the knowledge they held. I did ask them what was going on, they said nothing was wrong between us, this is what I meant by reconciling my gut with reality, they had made a judgement (and many, many people knew about it) that I would be more hurt by the knowledge than by the those around me essentially protecting him. They had the best of intentions but they were wrong.
That is what I'm trying to explore, that judging the outcome of disclosure of the truth on others is flawed.
Thank you again for the links, I'll go and read more
and that's not quite what I was talking about. (plus who knows the motivations of those who willingly put themselves in the public eye when it comes to press announcements ;-p)
thanks for the information, it does clarify things, I havn't read the big book, I have only had first-hand experience of the steps as an alanon programme.
I'm not interetsed in how others do their step work in any context other than as an example to me in how to approach life. I don't judge (or at least try hard to stop myself from doing so) other people's approach to a 12-step programme, for a start because I'm not part of it, I don't understand the rules! that wasn't the rationale for me asking.
as background, I have no HP, and whilst I love the fellowship of AL-anon and some of the wisdom of the programme is invaluable, I have found it very difficult to "work" the steps ina traditional sence because of this. I know that people do manage it, I'm not saying this is a fault with the programme (I'm not saying its a fault with me either) but it is what it is. However, I do find the programme to be full of great ways to approach life. and as time has gone on, things that I thought were nuts to begin with, I have come to see the value in, through watching how people apply it to their lives and using that as a springboard to think about it myself: that was the source of my query.
Its not even really about the step or aa/alaonon, because I don't follow them, but I do try and use the wisdom and understand it, and was looking to explore that, perhaps this is not the forum for that.
I think my approach to this is that truth (albeit perceived truth) is an end in itself, and that there has to be a pretty hefty reason for that not to be a default position. I don't think predictions of "harm" to another because they may experience dificult feelings once they learn of our actions don't fulfil that (for me).
This isn't an abstract excercise, I am struggling about a disclosure, it isn't about my actions, I have knowledge of someone else's harmful actions towards another, and I have not known whether to disclose this for over a year (and because I am struggling I have done nothing).
I am aware that my feelings are coloured by my own experience. Where many people knew about my partners infidelities, I knew something was wrong, but crucially not what... people who knew about it started to distance themselves from me or act oddly because of the knowledge they held. I did ask them what was going on, they said nothing was wrong between us, this is what I meant by reconciling my gut with reality, they had made a judgement (and many, many people knew about it) that I would be more hurt by the knowledge than by the those around me essentially protecting him. They had the best of intentions but they were wrong.
That is what I'm trying to explore, that judging the outcome of disclosure of the truth on others is flawed.
Thank you again for the links, I'll go and read more
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
This isn't an abstract excercise, I am struggling about a disclosure, it isn't about my actions, I have knowledge of someone else's harmful actions towards another, and I have not known whether to disclose this for over a year (and because I am struggling I have done nothing).
Is it any of your business?
This is not me asking you, this is me asking you the questions I would be asking myself.
I would discuss this with a sponsor, a therapist, or with someone with a great program, I am probably way out of line for volunteering them, but I would probably PM either Laurie, LaTeeDa, ToughChoices or Freya, lay my cards on the table and ask them if I was unable to ask someone face to face
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Dublin, OH
Posts: 5
Plus ca change plu c'est la meme chose
I too have struggled with the feelings of abandonment even as one that stayed in the relationship after infidelity in the vain hope that there was some chance at returning. Attempts to engage counseling given up as any time wsa devoted to working her program. After three sober years being tagged on to the drunken years there is even less relationship than the last few years of drinking.
Not sure whatever happened to step 9, outside of aknowledgement of bad decisions being made contact with the other guy has continued into sobriety. In our case there is no change in life that came with sobriety, I'm glad that she is no longer killing herself slowly but that's about all that is left. Nights are spent alone and I have given up trying. Hopefully others fare better in the same circumstances and are able to salvage something from the ashes.
Not sure whatever happened to step 9, outside of aknowledgement of bad decisions being made contact with the other guy has continued into sobriety. In our case there is no change in life that came with sobriety, I'm glad that she is no longer killing herself slowly but that's about all that is left. Nights are spent alone and I have given up trying. Hopefully others fare better in the same circumstances and are able to salvage something from the ashes.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
